"Asperger's Children: The Origins of Autism in Nazi Vienna"

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ASPartOfMe
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19 Apr 2018, 7:00 pm

Amaltheia wrote:
I'm not following the line of reasoning here.

The link between lung cancer and smoking was established by German doctors in Nazi Germany and the Nazi government ran public campaigns to discourage smoking. Does that Nazi connection mean the tobacco companies are vindicated in their campaign to hide the connection between smoking and lung cancer and the warnings printed on cigarette packets should be abandoned because they're just Nazi propaganda?

Or is it possible to separate the science from the politics and to acknowledge that the science — which has been supported by subsequent researchers in both the smoking-lung cancer connection and the existence of Asperger's Syndrome — is valid while rejecting the politics. The line of reasoning here seems to be: no you can't; if you don't like the politics, it automatically discredits the science. Which, to me, just seems short-sighted and weird.

Also, the title: autism didn't originate in Nazi Vienna, it was (co-)discovered in Nazi Vienna. Saying it "originated" displays a deep misunderstanding of what autism is and how it works. Autism is not some weird Nazi plot, it's part of the human condition.


The title of the thread is a title of an upcoming book. I think the author knows autism was not a Nazi plot but felt like a title of "Asperger's Children: Some Of The Origins Of The Autism Diagnosis in Nazi Vienna" would have been unwieldy.

How much to separate the science from the person(or people from their time and place) is an opinion the author has a right to express and the reader to agree or disagree with.


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19 Apr 2018, 7:42 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
The title of the thread is a title of an upcoming book. I think the author knows autism was not a Nazi plot but felt like a title of "Asperger's Children: Some Of The Origins Of The Autism Diagnosis in Nazi Vienna" would have been unwieldy.

I know it's the title of a book. And "Asperger's Children: The Discovery of Autism in Nazi Vienna" is only two characters longer and more accurate, so I don't see why the author and/or publisher didn't use that.

Quote:
How much to separate the science from the person(or people from their time and place) is an opinion the author has a right to express and the reader to agree or disagree with.

That's a valid point. Unfortunately, it's a non sequitur since it's addressing a claim no-one's made. Of course the author has a right to express her opinion. And others have the right to ask for clarification on the reasoning that led to, and supports, that opinion.

As I said, I'm not following the line of reasoning. I'm not saying it's wrong, I'm saying I don't understand it and would like have it explained. Once I understand it, I may or may not agree with it.



ASPartOfMe
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19 Apr 2018, 8:48 pm

Both the author of the paper and the author of the book did discuss the separating science from the person

Edith Sheffer wrote:
Does the man behind the name matter? To medical ethics, it does. Naming a disorder after someone is meant to credit and commend, and Asperger merited neither. His definition of “autistic psychopaths” is antithetical to understandings of autism today, and he sent dozens of children to their deaths.


Herwig Czech wrote:
there is no evidence to show his contributions to autism research were tainted by his problematic role during National Socialism. So purging the term Asperger from the medical lexicon would not be helpful.


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19 Apr 2018, 9:33 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
Both the author of the paper and the author of the book did discuss the separating science from the person
Edith Sheffer wrote:
Does the man behind the name matter? To medical ethics, it does. Naming a disorder after someone is meant to credit and commend, and Asperger merited neither. His definition of “autistic psychopaths” is antithetical to understandings of autism today, and he sent dozens of children to their deaths.

So we should just wipe him from history and pretend that Asperger's Syndrome doesn't exist?

Cool. Suddenly I'm cured. Who knew it would be that easy.

I looked up the author and here's her page form Stanford Univeristy's Department of History site:
Quote:
Edith Sheffer
Senior Fellow, Institute of European Studies, University of California, Berkeley
Assistant Professor of Modern European History and, by courtesy, German Studies
Field:
Modern Europe
Ph.D., University of California, Berkeley
B.A., Harvard University, summa cum laude

Edith Sheffer is a Senior Fellow at the Institute of European Studies at the University of California, Berkeley. Her current book, Asperger's Children: The Origins of Autism in Nazi Vienna is forthcoming in May 2018 with W. W. Norton. It investigates Hans Asperger’s creation of the autism diagnosis in the Third Reich, examining Nazi psychiatry's emphasis on social spirit and Asperger's involvement in the euthanasia program that killed children considered to be disabled. A related project through Stanford's Spatial History Lab maps the transnational development of child psychiatry as a discipline: "Forming Selves: The Creation of Child Psychiatry from Red Vienna to the Third Reich and Abroad." Sheffer's prize-winning first book, Burned Bridge: How East and West Germans Made the Iron Curtain (Oxford University Press, 2011), challenges the moral myth of the Berlin Wall, the Cold War’s central symbol -- revealing how the Iron Curtain was not simply imposed by Communism, but emerged from the everyday actions of ordinary people. Her next book, Hidden Front: Switzerland and World War Two, tells an in-depth history of a nation whose pivotal role remains unexposed yet was decisive in the course of the Second World War.

Even this short summary it talks about the "origins" of autism and the "creation" of the diagnosis, as if autism doesn't exist in reality and is just some social construct. It comes across as solipsistic in the extreme.

And, ethically, I think you acknowledge the person who did the work and made the discovery. This entire notion that only those who meet your social approval are worthy of acknowledging is just more of the narcissistic social exclusion that typifies how autistics (and other outsiders) get treated.

Herwig Czech wrote:
there is no evidence to show his contributions to autism research were tainted by his problematic role during National Socialism. So purging the term Asperger from the medical lexicon would not be helpful.

This actually addresses the issue, unlike the comment from Sheffer you quoted. Unless it can be demonstrated that Asperger's discoveries were tainted by his politics, then his politics aren't relevant to the science. Asperger's Syndrome exists. It's a real thing. And Hans Asperger was one of the people who discovered and described it.



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19 Apr 2018, 9:39 pm

It's up to AS people to be the deciders of this, not any one researcher whatever his or her scholarship.

Maybe this latest set of revelations, unpleasant as they are, will spur AS people to assume the personal agency as a community that they have in the past surrendered to NTs, many regarding NTs as the source of all wisdom about AS, because that's how the NTs themselves see it.



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20 Apr 2018, 4:37 am

Amaltheia wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
Both the author of the paper and the author of the book did discuss the separating science from the person
Edith Sheffer wrote:
Does the man behind the name matter? To medical ethics, it does. Naming a disorder after someone is meant to credit and commend, and Asperger merited neither. His definition of “autistic psychopaths” is antithetical to understandings of autism today, and he sent dozens of children to their deaths.

So we should just wipe him from history and pretend that Asperger's Syndrome doesn't exist?

Cool. Suddenly I'm cured. Who knew it would be that easy.

I looked up the author and here's her page form Stanford Univeristy's Department of History site:
Quote:
Edith Sheffer
Senior Fellow, Institute of European Studies, University of California, Berkeley
Assistant Professor of Modern European History and, by courtesy, German Studies
Field:
Modern Europe
Ph.D., University of California, Berkeley
B.A., Harvard University, summa cum laude

Edith Sheffer is a Senior Fellow at the Institute of European Studies at the University of California, Berkeley. Her current book, Asperger's Children: The Origins of Autism in Nazi Vienna is forthcoming in May 2018 with W. W. Norton. It investigates Hans Asperger’s creation of the autism diagnosis in the Third Reich, examining Nazi psychiatry's emphasis on social spirit and Asperger's involvement in the euthanasia program that killed children considered to be disabled. A related project through Stanford's Spatial History Lab maps the transnational development of child psychiatry as a discipline: "Forming Selves: The Creation of Child Psychiatry from Red Vienna to the Third Reich and Abroad." Sheffer's prize-winning first book, Burned Bridge: How East and West Germans Made the Iron Curtain (Oxford University Press, 2011), challenges the moral myth of the Berlin Wall, the Cold War’s central symbol -- revealing how the Iron Curtain was not simply imposed by Communism, but emerged from the everyday actions of ordinary people. Her next book, Hidden Front: Switzerland and World War Two, tells an in-depth history of a nation whose pivotal role remains unexposed yet was decisive in the course of the Second World War.

Even this short summary it talks about the "origins" of autism and the "creation" of the diagnosis, as if autism doesn't exist in reality and is just some social construct. It comes across as solipsistic in the extreme.

And, ethically, I think you acknowledge the person who did the work and made the discovery. This entire notion that only those who meet your social approval are worthy of acknowledging is just more of the narcissistic social exclusion that typifies how autistics (and other outsiders) get treated.

Herwig Czech wrote:
there is no evidence to show his contributions to autism research were tainted by his problematic role during National Socialism. So purging the term Asperger from the medical lexicon would not be helpful.

This actually addresses the issue, unlike the comment from Sheffer you quoted. Unless it can be demonstrated that Asperger's discoveries were tainted by his politics, then his politics aren't relevant to the science. Asperger's Syndrome exists. It's a real thing. And Hans Asperger was one of the people who discovered and described it.


I am not going to judge Ms. Sheffer’s views based on the marketing plan for her book until I read the book.

For me personally I can not forget that I and most of you would have never been identified without his work, neither can I forget he was a willing cog in a machine that killed and did other horrible things to people like me both as a Autistic and a Jew.

For myself I want an approach that recognizes his contributions but does not honor him. Right now I am leaning towerds using Aspergers and Aspie in discussions specifically about Aspergers but eliminate calling myself Aspie. This may be subject to change as I might find myself uncomfortable or find there is no way to recognize the really good stuff without honoring him. Somebody might come up with a better approach I had not thought of. I will never language police another autistic’s way of identifying themselves.

IMHO Aspergers is still the best way to describe my type of Autism, certainly a lot better than High Functioning Autism but it is still deeply flawed so if a better descriptor emerges from this painful period it will be worth it, but as B19 said it should come from us for a change.


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20 Apr 2018, 5:09 am

So people only deserve credit for their work if they have broad social approval. The autistic kid who does well in class shouldn't be allowed to have good marks because all the other kids in the class think they're weird and don't like them.

That's pretty much the standard being advocated here.

I would have thought anyone opposed to Nazism would reject that sort of petty conformism that was very much at the heart of their ideology.



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20 Apr 2018, 8:17 am

Amaltheia wrote:
So people only deserve credit for their work if they have broad social approval. The autistic kid who does well in class shouldn't be allowed to have good marks because all the other kids in the class think they're weird and don't like them.

That's pretty much the standard being advocated here.

I would have thought anyone opposed to Nazism would reject that sort of petty conformism that was very much at the heart of their ideology.


That is not what I said at all. I do not want him erased from history and it should not be forgetten that wrong planet would probably not be here without his work

Come on we are not talking about the weird unconformist kid in class but a willing cog in the Nazi genocide machine. That should not be forgotten because of his pioneering work.
The whole of the man is how we should judge him.


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20 Apr 2018, 12:07 pm

Aspergers Controversial Past: Doctor Behind Syndrome Linked to Nazi’s

Quote:
The information highlighted in Czech’s paper will likely cause an emotional reaction from some in the autism community, said Michael John Carley, an author and founder of the Global and Regional Asperger Syndrome Partnership, or GRASP, an organization for adults on the autism spectrum. Carley once had a diagnosis of Asperger’s syndrome but now has autism spectrum disorder. He said those who see Hans Asperger as “a very benevolent” person are “going to have a very, very tough time swallowing this news.”

However, because the American Psychiatric Association’s Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, or DSM, did away with the Asperger’s syndrome designation in 2013 in favor of autism spectrum disorder, Carley said the Asperger’s designation as a technical diagnosis is “not a word that is hanging over our heads.”

Carley said he feels that those in the autism community are generally viewing the information unearthed by Czech and others thoughtfully. “A very large percentage of people on the spectrum understand that our sense of self-worth is not derived from a total stranger,” he said, “despite the fact that his name is associated” with the condition.


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20 Apr 2018, 5:45 pm

Tweet by Ari Neeman first ASAN president
In short, we should pay Asperger no further honors - just as we should not allow this long overdue understanding of history to turn back the clock on the progress that Autistic people - the Nazi's victims - have won over the last several decades.

John Elder Robison
@johnrobison
·
Apr 19
Had Czech's findings been known 20-some years ago Asperger Syndrome would never have entered the DSM under that name. In fact there is a high likelihood, were Asperger living today, he'd face prosecution over the war activities


@johnrobison
·
Apr 19
We Americans first heard of Herwig Czech and his Asperger findings a few years ago in Different Key, the book from @JohnDonvan and @caren_zucker The brief story in that book was dismissed by some but this new Czech paper has a disturbing level of detail that can't be ignored.

·
Apr 19
Many #ActuallyAutistic people describe themselves as having Asperger's. We may want to rethink that name in light of this from Austrian medical historian Herwig Czech. This paper paints a very sad picture of his complicity in Nazi euthanasia of kid


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21 Apr 2018, 2:27 am

Canadian Broadcasting Corporation interview with Herwig Czech

Hans Asperger, Researcher Asperger Syndrome Is Named After, Had Ties to Nazi Party's Child Euthanasia Program

Quote:
“When I first read about Hans Asperger and this new information resurfaced about he and the Nazi regime, I was stunned, honestly,” Katelyn Decker, a member of The Mighty’s autism community, said. “It didn’t really click with me until I read and reread articles about his work and the research that has been done to fully understand what happened. Once it did hit, I was shocked and quite upset.”

The news about Asperger shook Decker to her very core, she said. But she’s always identified as an ‘Aspie,’ not because of the man but because it’s her way of defining autism on her terms.

“I will still refer to myself as someone diagnosed with Asperger’s syndrome because that is a part of my identity,” Decker said. “It helps me to understand myself and helps the people around me to understand who I am and how I function.”

For others, it’s won’t be as easy to continue using the term, no matter how much they identified with it. “I do motivational speaking about my stuttering and Asperger’s ,and while I had gotten acclimated to referring to myself as an ‘Aspie,’ now I have serious reservations about that description,” Steven Kaufman, another member of The Mighty’s autism community, said. “I think effective from this point forward I will refer to myself as being on the spectrum or ‘high-functioning.'”

Angie Arcuri, also a member of The Mighty’s community, hasn’t made her mind up on using the term just yet, but she’s aware that “correct” terms and labels are debated within the autism community. Labels shouldn’t detract from the community’s overall needs, such as educating the public that autism isn’t an “undesirable trait” but rather a part of neurodiversity.

“The autism community is so divided on semantics and how words are used in regard to autism, and in regard to the way in which autistics are treated,” Arcuri said. “But I think it would be beneficial for all who are part of the autism community to be on the same page, to embrace who we are, and to embrace the fact that autism truly is a very large spectrum and we cannot get hung up on people’s use of words.”


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21 Apr 2018, 4:08 am

There is a curious omission in the media and other discussions on this, and I am grateful to Silberman's comprehensive history "Neurotribes", in which he noted on page 95 in the hardcopy version (regarding Hans Asperger as "discoverer") that:

"In fact, a young Russian psychiatrist named Grunia Sukhareva had written about a nearly identical group of young people in Moscow two decades earlier..."

Silberman expands on her insights for several pages. There is no doubt in my mind that she was describing young people on the spectrum (nor in Silberman's).

"These children didn't seem to be going through any kind of disease process similar to the tragic arc of schizophrenia; they were just deeply, constutionally different from their peers... if they found a teacher who protected them from bullies and encouraged them to develop their natural talents, they might thrive, though they would always remain eccentric". (page 97).
...

I recall that Sukhareva's recognition was briefly "news" a few years back, and then she was dumped again into the dustbin of ignored history. If we are to apply the standard of honouring the discoverer, then why is she being omitted from the discussions going on now? Because she was a female scientist? Seems very likely so to me. The editing out of women pioneers in science is nothing new, of course, nor is the downgrading of their achievements in favour of male colleagues (Think "Watson, Crick and what was her name, the one whose work was used to get the men their Nobel prize?)

..

Re-reading Neurotribes has reminded me of a lot today. The description of JAMA's use of an anatomy book written by a leading Nazi champion named Pernkopf in Austria, which continued to be used until JAMA was challenged by a Jewish surgeon in 1996, who forced JAMA to admit (finally) that the book which the USA medical profession was still using to teach would-be surgeons (and had been using for 60 years up to then) was illustrated with the flayed bodies of disabled children the Nazis had killed for the purpose (see p126, Neurotribes). The book was praised by JAMA as "a work of art".

There's a parallel here (though I'm making it, not Silberman this time): Both the work of Asperger and the work of his compatriate Nazi Pernkopf - both were whitewashed/unquestioned in the USA, and for an incredibly long time, and they were both deeply intertwined with the Nazi regime's murder of people like us.

As long as Autism/Aspergers continues to be a great earner for members of JAMA, the APA and other medical cabals, they won't care at all about AS sensitivities in the light of the latest revelations. They never have. The Anatomy book was emblazoned throughout the pictures in it with Nazi icons like the swastika. The continued USA use of it did not arise from ignorance of its origin.



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21 Apr 2018, 4:30 am

Another woman "written out" of the history, her observations predating Kanner's, in the USA, and he was aware of her work:

In a recent article, Fellowes (2015) asserts that Kanner built on ideas previously outlined by Louise
Despert, a child psychiatrist living in New York. Despert had already published a 1938 clinical account classifying 23 children as childhood schizophrenic. (This term was used for autism at that time).
In a letter written by Despert in 1943, just after Kanner’s publication, she praised Kanner’s paper but objected to his claim to have discovered something new since she had already described something like autism.

Not only did Kanner not mention it, none of the male "autism experts" in subsequent decades did either.

(Can't make WP format this properly, it just reverts once I press submit..)



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21 Apr 2018, 9:37 am

I would like to know more about Sukhareva's group of atypical children.



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21 Apr 2018, 9:48 am

Sarcastic Post.

Such renowned women autism experts as Suzanne Wright and Jenny McCarthy get plenty of recognition.

Maybe it is for the best Dr. Sukareva does not get reconized, there must be some connection with Stalinism there. Imagine if that was discovered today. Fox news would devote all of its programming to show psychiatry is a fiendish commie plot. Trump would tweet who knows what.


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21 Apr 2018, 9:58 am

IstominFan wrote:
I would like to know more about Sukhareva's group of atypical children.

JEWISH GENIUS: GRUNYA SUKHAREVA, THE DISCOVERER OF CHILD AUTISM

Tribute to Grunya Efimovna Sukhareva, the Woman who First Described Infantile Autism


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