Heterogeneity of ASD

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30 Sep 2020, 12:07 pm

Whale_Tuune wrote:

At the very least, most PoC, women, LGBT and the like can agree that they are primarily victims of systemic prejudice and that is what they must combat. This isn't really something that holds for such a broad and vague disability like Autism.

I am curious what your metric is. The employment rate for people with ASD in the US is 53%. This is far lower than PoC, women, and LGBTQ. Violence against people with autism is also high. The disability rights movement is young compared to these other groups. But I have found little evidence that the bias against the disabled is any less, in terms of impact or importance.

Jiheisho
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30 Sep 2020, 12:12 pm

Employment for college grads with autism is really depressing: Most college grads with autism can't find jobs. This group is fixing that.

carlos55
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30 Sep 2020, 1:59 pm

The main problem with the neurodiversity or identity model is its not self contained to those who want to see their ASD that way.

Once something becomes an identity it makes it more difficult for researchers to work to act against it, by that to find therapies for those that need it.

We are dealing with a disability here not something that’s optional.

So, a minority of the most functioning end up dictating for others by default whether they like it or not & obviously that’s not fair on those that are very disabled & badly need new therapies and drugs that may give a better quality of life.

Nick Walker is simply the equivalent of a shock jock, I wouldn’t worry too much on the nonsense he comes out with.

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30 Sep 2020, 8:08 pm

Whale_Tuune wrote:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41380-018-0321-0

What does everyone think? My stance on Autism politics is basically as follows: until we know what we mean when we talk about "Autistic people" (currently, we do not) it will be practically impossible to organize any medical, philanthropic, or social movement to address "Autistic people's" problems.

You are totally right and it's my problem with the term 'autism' as well. There are people who have quite the opposite problems and it's wrong to lump all that together because the different problems require a different treatment and support as well.

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30 Sep 2020, 9:04 pm

Jiheisho wrote:

Whale_Tuune wrote:

My point was that metrics of marginalization (unemployment, for example) may well be dismal. But nothing I read in that article indicated that the Autistic people interviewed were victims of discrimination or prejudice. They got dinged for poor workplace behavior that anyone would have gotten dinged for.

I'm willing to bet that many of the issues Autistic people have that lead to high unemployment rates have to do with Autism itself: lack of attention to detail, poor executive functioning skills, poor interpersonal skills, even if one manages to graduate college.

And how about the ASD-diagnosed people who can't even speak or communicate at all? All of these traits cause impairment, but not out because anyone is prejudiced against Autistic people.

So my point was that at the very least with the aforementioned groups, they primarily suffer from prejudice against a perceived identity or generational trauma from their communities having been discriminated against for a perceived identity.

Which is very different from ASD, which is a disability that causes marginalization and impairment even if no one is "discriminating" against us... Yes, conscious discrimination against Autistics can be a thing, but it is not the primary issue.

So my overall point is that we don't even share one primary problem. (In contrast to the aforementioned groups.)

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Jiheisho
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30 Sep 2020, 11:29 pm

I have sort of moved on from the article and am discussing the issue more broadly.

The research says that bias is a problem for autistics: Implicit and Explicit Attitudes Toward Autistic Adults

And there is plenty more research not only on biases against those with autism, but also on outcomes.

Bias against social behavior is quite common. LGBTQ people face that all the time. Why is bias against the difference in autistic social behavior not the same? You will also find that equal opportunity regulations lists disability along with gender, sexuality, and race/ethnicity. So the law recognizes that these biases are systemic for these groups.

Unfortunately, you seem to be propagating stereotypes. Autistic people don't even get interviewed because of skills that have nothing to do with job performance. I certainly have been discriminated against even though I was very capable in my job duties. People pick up on autistic traits and will bully you for them. You will not have opportunities for promotion. And as I said, the research seems to back that up.

Last edited by Jiheisho on 30 Sep 2020, 11:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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30 Sep 2020, 11:43 pm

BTW, other groups don't share a single problem either. The dynamics of discrimination are quite complex as are the groups. You can't, for example, isolate race from gender or socioeconomic background. And even race is complex--just study the complexity of skin color among Blacks.

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01 Oct 2020, 7:48 am

Whale_Tuune wrote:

Jiheisho wrote:

Whale_Tuune wrote:

You are indeed totally correct about the majority of reasons for unemployment being the symptoms of autism itself.

This is why I’m totally against those that attempt to hinder or frustrate research into possible biological treatments, claiming their ego & identity comes before a disabled person’s right to a better life.

Nick Walker types who speak from a position of neuro privilege.

These people are simply willfully ignorant on the disabling consequences of ASD in others.

Quote:

So my point was that at the very least with the aforementioned groups, they primarily suffer from prejudice against a perceived identity or generational trauma from their communities having been discriminated against for a perceived identity. Which is very different from ASD, which is a disability that causes marginalization and impairment even if no one is "discriminating" against us... Yes, conscious discrimination against Autistics can be a thing, but it is not the primary issue.

Very well put our disability itself causes marginalization, our communication and other issues prevent us from forming normal human relationships, this is very different from say a black or Jewish person that would be discriminated against by the other party for whatever reason.

In simple terms people reach out to us but we can’t respond, the issue is on our side.

In a racism issue the problem is the person doing the discriminating, in other words the other side not the black person themself.

That’s the big difference when you hear comparisons between us and LGBT / racism etc....

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01 Oct 2020, 10:12 am

Jiheisho wrote:

If you say something offensive to someone else, cross a social boundary, seem to behave in a way mismatched with the social context, etc, why would that person not exclude you? These are things which can and do affect us on a regular basis.

My point was not that discrimination does not exist. I also said clearly that intergenerational trauma for minority groups like PoC (that affect socioeconomic status) are part of the problem for them.

None of these groups would be impaired if not for prejudice against them or their communities. That cannot be said for the ASD umbrella.

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01 Oct 2020, 11:12 am

I am unsure how you understand discrimination works.

Whale_Tuune wrote:

Really? If I have to pray at a certain time of day because of my beliefs, should I be excluded because it breaks social norms? If I wear certain clothing because of culture, should I be excluded because I break social norms? If the social norms about my race or gender state I am less intelligent, should I be excluded? If social norms state mental conditions can be threatening, should I be excluded? Our legal system would take exception to all of that in the workplace. You seem to say that is is the autistic person's fault for their exclusion. That is what the autism rights community is trying to address.

Quote:

My point was not that discrimination does not exist. I also said clearly that intergenerational trauma for minority groups like PoC (that affect socioeconomic status) are part of the problem for them.

I would read NeuroTribes by Steve Silberman to understand the intergenerational discrimination against not only those with autism, but the mentally "ill" in general. Here you seem to be blaming the groups for their discrimination, when it is the in group that is the driver for the intergenerational behavior.

Quote:

None of these groups would be impaired if not for prejudice against them or their communities. That cannot be said for the ASD umbrella.

I would not actually be "impaired" if it was not for the bias against me. I am able to do my job and do it well, which is actually the criteria under the ADA. You seem to be saying that discrimination based on social norms against autistic people are OK, but using social norms against PoC is not. Racism and sexism are not OK, but abilism is? The interesting thing is you simply think the issues facing autistic people is their disability and that has a neutral social value--we are being excluded simply because we cannot perform--but the history shows that the problem is far more complex based on social stigma.

There was a time that "severely" disabled people, including autistics, to simply be institutionalized for their lives. The Olmstead ruling was a great victory for the disabled that gave them (or perhaps returned to them) the right to live as independently as possible: Olmstead vs. LC. What minority got simply locked up because of who they were? Social norms is a hard criteria to use to discriminate against people.

I guess my position is the mechanism for discrimination is the same regardless of the target of that discrimination. I think trying to grade that does not make much sense as it is not different, just a different target.

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01 Oct 2020, 11:20 am

My personality is not a disorder especially not 'the very definition of a disorder'.

If that is how you feel about yourself then fine, but it's not how I feel about myself.

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Whale_Tuune
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01 Oct 2020, 11:28 am

Quote:

You do not seem to be listening to me.

I never said that "ableism" did not exist. I never said that discrimination was not a problem. What I said is that it is not the sole or primary problem.

Let's do a thought experiment. Autistic man speaks to neurotypical woman. He invades her personal boundaries, asks overly personal questions, puts her at ill ease. She tells others that he's creepy and to stay away from him.

I have known many Autistic men who complain about this behavior and think that the women who do this are "prejudiced." As a woman, I understand that women do this because we are frequently the target of sexual assault and violence, and all of these behaviors are warning signs against potential predators.

Autistic behaviors can be truly problematic.

I myself have accidentally glared or smiled at times when (unbeknownst to me) the situational context implied that I disliked someone or that I was making negative assumptions about them. The clothing and praying examples are not even close to what many of us deal with. They are unintrusive behaviors that don't otherwise impair how likeable or relatable someone is.

If you feel that your primary problem is bias/discrimination, then fine. You can't generalize that to everyone on the spectrum.

This is why I said heterogeneity is an issue. If you are happy with your Autism, that is fine. My point was that you can't generalize your experience to everyone else.

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01 Oct 2020, 11:33 am

Think in bigger pictures. At least in scope of where you came from.

What are the odds a parent or a teacher is capable of teaching autistics life skills?
Let alone something adaptive on complicated exceptionalities -- autism happened to be one.

Even a parent or a teacher capable of teaching children with learning disabilities or any exceptionalities are hard at odds.

:twisted: If a society largely chooses the oh-so-easy path, in spite of their resources and knowledge, of not bothering with having any people with exceptionalities...
It ain't my problem, but I'd rather feel sorry for those who are in it and entirely buys with such idea of living.

I don't expect such societies are ever truly accepting, or be actually tolerant to try and bother understanding how to guide autistics or NDs a chance in life.
Because their inner mindsets is set to get rid of NDs, just so they, not-NDs, can 'live' happily ever after in a world they don't have to work and deal with it. :lol:
A waste of human potential, but that's life.

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01 Oct 2020, 11:59 am

Whale_Tuune wrote:

Let's do a thought experiment. Autistic man speaks to neurotypical woman. He invades her personal boundaries, asks overly personal questions, puts her at ill ease. She tells others that he's creepy and to stay away from him.

I love thought experiments.

Let look at it in a different way:

Black man speaks to white woman. He invades her personal boundaries, asks overly personal questions, puts her at ill ease. She tells others that he's creepy and to stay away from him.

See the problem?

Quote:

This is why I said heterogeneity is an issue. If you are happy with your Autism, that is fine. My point was that you can't generalize your experience to everyone else.

You cannot generalize an individual experience to a general one. That is actually the very problem with discrimination: you tell the woman that she is just being emotional or the Black person they are being racist. That is why you study a population. Every population has variance--Oprah Winfrey does not represent a common Black experience and Temple Grandin does not represent a common autistic experience. That work is really important to find the patterns and issues that face groups. And usually that analysis finds a number of issues depending on the variability in the population.

First, I never said I was representing ALL autistic people (nor did I get a diagnosis because I was "happy"--I promise I will not judge your autistic experience if you do not judge mine :heart:

). I was illustrating that discrimination is not an abstract concept in our community. But you are also imply that unless something helps everyone, then we should not address issues that some face. There is no one solution. This is why it is critical to study our population so we can see how discrimination affects us. The same is true for all group--the problems people face depend on your position in the community.

I can understand your desire for a one-size-fits-all solution. It is very attractive. Autism, like life, is complex. Unless we are going to embrace that complexity, there cannot be a solution.

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01 Oct 2020, 12:09 pm

You didn't answer my actual question: whether or not these "Autistic" associated behaviors are inherently impairing.

I don't want a one-size fits all solution. I want us to use more precise labels for a broad, vague group like "Autism." That would help us better address the ambiguity and nuance of this diagnosis.

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01 Oct 2020, 12:14 pm

Whale_Tuune wrote:

You didn't answer my actual question: whether or not these "Autistic" associated behaviors are inherently impairing.

No, they are not inherently impairing.

Last edited by Jiheisho on 01 Oct 2020, 12:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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