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“Do not resuscitate” orders given to UK learning disabled

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League_Girl
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19 May 2021, 11:02 am

carlos55 wrote:
Seen this first hand in the UK in a care home

A relative had severe dementia the home decided to restrict all water to him and we all visited him, his immediate family watched him slowly die over 3-4 days.

This is all legal I understand it’s called the “Liverpool pathway” I believe.



UK sounds scary for profoundly disabled folks. At least here in the US we don't do that but when my grandma got cancer, we let her pass away peacefully because she had severe Alzheimer's and would not understand what is going on and would not tolerate the treatment for cancer so we let her pass on. All we did was had her on meds to keep her alive long enough for everyone to get the chance to say good bye to her.


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carlos55
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19 May 2021, 11:19 am

League_Girl wrote:
carlos55 wrote:
Seen this first hand in the UK in a care home

A relative had severe dementia the home decided to restrict all water to him and we all visited him, his immediate family watched him slowly die over 3-4 days.

This is all legal I understand it’s called the “Liverpool pathway” I believe.



UK sounds scary for profoundly disabled folks. At least here in the US we don't do that but when my grandma got cancer, we let her pass away peacefully because she had severe Alzheimer's and would not understand what is going on and would not tolerate the treatment for cancer so we let her pass on. All we did was had her on meds to keep her alive long enough for everyone to get the chance to say good bye to her.



Yes this has been going on for a while.

He wasn’t immediate family so kept out of it but that was the policy everyone understood including the home and his wife and children.

Obviously there is a difference between having a chronic fatal disease at 80 and being 25 with a learning disorder, so this news is shocking and cannot understand the reasoning here.


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19 May 2021, 4:14 pm

I'm going to be very careful of how I respond here by saying, that unless someone doesn't have the wilful capacity to make said judgements nor decisions of their own nor someone to honorably represent them, could I see that being carried out. However; what, I'm seeing her is DNR orders are being carried out regardless, something that makes me feel mortified literally



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24 May 2021, 9:57 am

Seems these orders in the UK refer specifically to CPR

this article is actually older than the one in OP

'Do not resuscitate' orders have caused panic in the UK. Here is the truth

Quote:
As tempers fray, sifting facts from hysteria may provide welcome reassurance. Cardiopulmonary resuscitation – CPR – means something very specific. It is the term we use for chest compressions and electric shocks to a heart that has stopped beating. It is treatment that is exclusively for someone who has already suffered a cardiac arrest. In a sense, the patient has already died: we are trying our hardest to resurrect them.

Some people fear a DNACPR order means nothing at all will be done to try and prolong a patient’s life. This is not true. All manner of other treatments may be appropriate, such as fluids, antibiotics, oxygen, admission to hospital or treatment in an intensive care unit. The only thing ruled out by a DNACPR is chest compressions and shocks to the heart.


https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... c-uk-truth

giving CPR to somebody dying of COVID is not so appealing, esp considering this study

Study finds 100% death rate in COVID-19 patients after CPR

Quote:
All 54 COVID-19 patients who underwent cardiopulmonary resuscitation (CPR) in a Michigan hospital died, leading to questions about the risks and benefits of performing a procedure that exposes healthcare personnel to the coronavirus amid limited supplies of personal protective equipment (PPE).


https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspec ... -after-cpr



so how did all the learning disabled die in the UK?



Last edited by The_Znof on 24 May 2021, 12:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

The_Znof
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24 May 2021, 12:41 pm

UK is not specific enough, Whales, Northern Ireland, and Scotland had no spike in Non Elderly Learning disabled deaths.

let me brace myself here,

The UK’s “excess deaths” are by far the youngest in Europe. Why?

Quote:
n in-depth look at the mortality statistics in England shows something puzzling: Their reported “excess deaths” are much, much younger than the rest of the world, the rest of Europe, and even the rest of the United Kingdom.

Covid19 – like many common respiratory viruses – affects the elderly at a far greater rate than the young. Worldwide the average age of a covid19 death is over 80 years old (in many countries such as Canada and Sweden it is substantially more).

When you look at the EuroMomo graphs on mortality you see that the vast majority of “excess deaths” fall in the 65+ category. No countries anywhere show increased mortality in people under 45.

Except England.


https://off-guardian.org/2020/08/01/the ... urope-why/



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31 May 2021, 10:09 am

The_Znof wrote:
The_Znof wrote:
I despise eugenics, but some of the stats in the article sound Extremely sensationalized to me, particularly the death rate via COVID numbers.



Shenanigans shenanigans shenanigans

Took them [nearly] a year to fix their little blunder

Document first published:18 May 2020
updated:13 May 2021

On 30 July 2020 the incorrect file was accidentally uploaded in relation to this data. An internal review has been completed and steps taken to prevent this happening again. You can read further information on the UK Statistics Authority Website

I haven’t confirmed that explains the death rate issue, but regardless, this is a sloppy article with sloppy sources, A year to fix this s**t! :jester: :P

[and let us see if I beat the so called guardian to this]


There is another article Im trying to find from the Guardian, which I read in mid/late jan 2021, which reports on nursing home deaths in a way I found similar to this article. So I check this guys articles first, before I get far, wtf lol.. [this is not the nursing home article I was looking for, but possibly even more ludicrous.

just read it, nah, its pretty lame actually, would be nothing if not for the shenanigans 2 months later



8O

Go figure: how Britain became a nation of armchair statisticians

Sceptics are poring over official figures in the Covid-19 crisis, but not all data deserves to be treated with suspicion

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... tisticians

edit - here is the story, missed it the first time, https://uksa.statisticsauthority.gov.uk ... ty-review/



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31 May 2021, 5:16 pm

The virus called COVID is made up.
It's a SCAMdemic.
This is fear mongering.
Anyone trying to slap a fake COVID label on me and DNR me can go and Do one. (for non brits "Do one means get lost, do a runner, away from me)



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04 Jun 2021, 4:57 pm

There are people out there who are sentient but cannot easily communicate. There are people out there who have caregivers who could easily abuse this loophole. This is disgusting... Euthanasia dressed up like it's not euthanasia.

If someone does not explicitly and clearly communicate that they want a DNR, do not issue them a DNR! Anything less is at the very least clear medical malpractice bordering on manslaughter.


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The_Znof
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04 Jun 2021, 5:16 pm

the problem with this whole DNR bit is that it usually refers specifically to CPR, which has not been effective for those dying of covid. Ventalators too are suspect.

Yet the stats show England had more deaths of non elderly than anywhere else in europe, or even the UK.

This was before vaccines where out, so what happened? Till an answer is found, Liverpool pathway cannot be written off.



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04 Jun 2021, 6:19 pm

The article phrases this as centering more around disability than COVID, though the article could be misleading...


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The_Znof
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04 Jun 2021, 6:29 pm

Whale_Tuune wrote:
The article phrases this as centering more around disability than COVID, though the article could be misleading...


Yes the article goes in that direction at times, but the only solution suggested, vaccines, are pure Covid solution.

The article presents its sparse info in a vague way, and I have found less than a half dozen articles entirely on this topic, which started over a year ago.

wtf



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05 Jun 2021, 12:56 am

Wait? how does an ambulance/first aid/hospital triage know that a patient has a learning disability?

Do they ask the person what is the square root of 81 as they are gasping for breath?



The_Znof
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06 Jun 2021, 1:33 am

The_Znof wrote:
I have found less than a half dozen articles entirely on this topic, which started over a year ago.

wtf


I meant articles from non medical specialist sources btw, I think, :oops: :oops: lol.



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09 Jan 2022, 10:32 am

Autistic Scots mum fears 'Do Not Resuscitate' order could be placed on medical file if she falls ill with Covid

Quote:
An autistic mum lives in fear of a “Do Not Resuscitate” order being placed on her medical file should she fall ill with Covid-19.

Teacher Laura McConnell, 38, from Edinburgh, leads a full life despite having the neurodevelopmental condition along with ADHD and hearing difficulties.

But she has spoken out over her heartbreaking anxiety that doctors will choose not to save her should she be struck down by coronavirus and taken to hospital while unable to communicate.

Throughout the pandemic there has been reports of elderly and disabled people being issued documents stating they do not want to be resuscitated on a ventilator.

In June a Scottish charity claimed a deaf man was given a Do Not Resuscitate (DNR) order without his consent due to “communication difficulties”.

Deaf Action said the man in his 60s was handed a letter during a routine appointment at the Royal Infirmary of Edinburgh stating medics would not try to save him if he stopped breathing.

“I am genuinely fearful. I had to have a conversation with my teenage son and my parents to make clear that I don’t want to have a DNR, that I am not consenting to that.

“I have even written a letter to my lawyer making it clear that if I die in hospital and it is found it was because of a DNR on my file, then I want there to be accountability for that.”

For those of you in the UK who like McConnell have people you can inform that you do not wish to have a DNR order(or you do) please inform as many as you can as soon as you can. I understand these are uncomfortable conversations to have. I more then understand how for many of us knowing when to start or enter a conversation are skills we lack. Your life and potential death is more important than awkwardness.

The people I do feel sorry for are those who do not have people who make can their wishes known to medical personnel.


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09 Jan 2022, 4:19 pm

I still don`t understand, why were "Do Not Resuscitate” Orders Given To the UK Learning Disabled and not any other group?

Anyone got a good medical explanation? why learning disabled anyway, what`s that got to do with a virus?

Anyone can find a good explanation would be good to see the reasons given.


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09 Jan 2022, 4:35 pm

DNR, i know about that. You normally have to be seriously critically ill. Where an early mortality is a foregone conclusion,and it would be futile to try to save you, prolong your life.


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