Time to get real

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I agree.

I am very much afraid that the UK government is currently throwing, not only children, but the sick, the disabled, and the disadvantaged to the wolves...in most categories slightly faster than most American States.

They are fully aware of this, and could not care less. That is what wealth, privilege and a Public School Education will do for you. It is a numbers game, not unlike monopoly, and those tagged for sacrifice were dehumanised into so much co-lateral damage before it even began.

As a life long left winger, I wish I could attribute this entirely to the Tories, but the truth is, it began with "New Labour", the Tories have just accelerated it.

As for the evidence, for that you will just have to sit back and watch it happen.

I wish there were a better truth available...but there is not.

Last edited by Zeraeph on 27 Aug 2011, 5:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

How much is the fault of individual governments and how much a "perfect storm" of events beyond the control of individual national governments?
How much burden can realistically be bourne by the tax payer if recovery is not to be stiffled. I think the notion of "evil" pollies and public servants plotting the demise of the underclass is devisive. The reality is that the poor buggers are trying to do their best for everybody in difficult times and inevitably there will be casualties. Sad but true, but demonising the decision makers will only polarise positions and may invoke a backlash.

It does not appear our government actually wants to do what is best for the citizens they want to do what is best for corporate america because that is where they get their profits. The whole thing is a joke it's not worth anyones time...everyone can debate over republicans and democrats or they can realise they are essentially the same party and we all know who the casualties will be.

Maybe what Zeraeph says is true in Ireland, and what proud aspie states is true in Australia if I understand correctly that's were he lives.

And finally, living in the US, I have to agree with Sweetleaf who I know also lives in the US. The parties are esentially the same now. The only difference we have is healthcare reform, and even though it is better for those that need the help, it is largely going to be a boom for the health insurance industry, instead of real reform; corporate america still wins.

I will say this though, if a Republican does get into office, we may say goodbye to a great deal of social programs sooner than if Obama stays in office. On the other hand, if Obama stays in Office taxes are almost surely going to rise in the beginning of his new term, along with some cuts to social programs as well, I think.

Don't count on it!

Both parties will need to raise consumer expenditure in order to encourage recovery and will see tax hikes to fund social programs as counter productive. An increase in consumer expenditure will raise the tax base anyway in the form of indirect taxation and company tax.

However, stringent cuts to social programs will be viewed as necessary evil and will get bipartizan support.

There will be strong arguments in favour of infrastructure projects to stimulate employment and consumer confidence but such arguments are not, to a significant extent, applicable to social programs.

To be honest, unfortunately the decision makers do not have any latitude on this.

Perpare for a cold wind of change,wherever you may be....................................................

Last edited by ProudAspie on 27 Aug 2011, 5:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

Except that Zeraeph made it perfectly plain she was talking about the UK, NOT Ireland, which as a very small country follows vastly different political and social patterns

In the UK (just so everybody knows where I am talking about and nobody gets it mixed up) and the US these changes had already begun long *BEFORE* the "perfect storm" of events (as you rightly describe them) beyond the control of individual governments, during the boom, and even before it, with Democrat Clinton's Welfare Reform act in 1996 and New Labour Tony Blair's "New Deal" in 1999 - both notably emanating from the supposedly more liberal parties (not to be confused with the British Liberal Party that is, in fact, center right but named a very long time ago).

(To my shame I know next to nothing about Australian Politics so cannot comment.)

Both of these acts moved a lot of vulnerable people into below subsistance, realistically unsustainable, positions that were consolidated *THROUGHOUT* the boom.

Let us please, also not forget that the recession was caused by (a largely US based, the others were no better and the next set of dominos to fall) banking sector, that got out of control, along with he rest of Corporate America. Governments are broke and close to broke more through a combination of shoring up the banking sector and the ridiculous extent to which corporation taxes had been both formally, and informally relaxed during the boom.

The truth is that it is not necessary to sacrifice the most vulnerable to recover from the recession any more than it was necessary to start sacrificing the most vulnerable before and during the boom, and it will *NEVER* be necessary to sacrifice the most vulnerable with the sadistic, unholy glee of the British Tories or the US Teapartiers who are privileged self centered elitist who have long ago lost all touch with humanity and stand on the edge of losing all touch with reason as they were in Europe in the 30s.

The whole thing represents a social and anthropological swing to the right, away from altruism, towards self interest, that is almost inevitable as urban and sub urban populations rise beyond a certain level.

Few, if any, of you will remember the 70s where it was culturally "uncool" not to care...right the way through society, on every level.

These are the countries you hear about, smaller, more moderate countries like Switzerland, Holland, Ireland, Scandinavia are the ones just trying to weather a "perfect storm" that was not of their making. Though they have their own faults those countries still strive to protect their vulnerable at all costs...even while the UK and US boast of how they will crush and compact their own...

I think the US system of election with senate and congressional elections halfway through the presidential term practically ensures that both parties are, in effect, "one and the same" even in the event that they very much did not want to be.

The stupid thing is that it is not so much the Federal Government that gets profit from corporate America but rather individual parties and politicians, often rendering them not much more than corporate puppets.

The UK works slightly differently because there is still a pronounced hereditary class system, and, ultimately remains under the control of that class largely through Whitehall and the civil service regardless of the party in power. The same class also control the finance and banking sector, which has a vested interest in protecting the corporate sector.

Well yeah I know it is not the Federal Government itself nessisarly making most of the profit......there are a lot of powerful people in the corporate world who make quite a bit of profit. And they are the ones who pay the politicians and people in the federal government so essentially our government is made up of a bunch of corporate puppets who make decisions in the best intrest of these corporations while feeding the citizens the BS they want to hear and keeping us satisfied with entertainment, the newest trendy products ect.

But yes I imagine things would work a bit different in the UK, cannot say I know much about that system...though I do not think the damage the U.S government and powerful corporations have done extend only to U.S citizens and I imagine there are people form other countries who are involved in some of these damages.

In the UK it's more of an "old boys network"...nobody gets paid directly, but a cousin's business profits...or the bank someone they were at school with is CEO of gets concessions and favours are owed that are repaid later, if only in terms of status and the conferring of other favours...or power.

The Uk system is one of the oldest in the world (despite considerable modification down the centuries) and as such is complex and labrynthine...

...and people forget, power is a far stronger motivator than money for people who have everything (and in most cases, have had for up to centuries) and better yet, power leaves no paper trails...

True...I mean when things hit the fan and money really becomes useless the powerful people will still have their power...if the citizens allow it.

Considering the UK has been around longer than the U.S I can see why it would be a bit more complex also they are rather different systems.

Thanks - I'll see if it's in the uni library and have a look at it. Of course, England and Wales doesn't equate to Britain or the UK.

Now you mention it, I am not sure that influence did get up to Scotland...not in the same way anyway...of course Scotland has a fairly entrenched catholic culture of it's own...

My understanding is that you live in northern Ireland which is part of the UK, my reference was to what I thought was your homeland, as I mentioned Australia for Proud Aspie and the US for Sweetloaf, sorry, if you found that offensive.

She had no reason to go berserk.