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Are all AS religious?

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velodog
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23 Apr 2008, 4:18 pm

Rather than dismiss my reply as nitpicking, Why don't you explain why I was wrong to call Abraham a deadbeat dad? You said weak arguments. The religious side feels free to leave pamphlets on my door and continue to do so even after I tell them not to. It's not a one way street.



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23 Apr 2008, 4:19 pm

Odin wrote:
sartresue wrote:
The answer is No. And belittling others' beliefs is callous.


If religious people are offended by reason that is their problem, not mine. Believing in God is epistemologically to be equivalent to believing in invisible pink unicorns on the far side of the moon. The only reason criticizing religious beliefs is treated as "bad" and criticizing people who believe in magical unicorns isn't is because of the former breaks what is basically a criticism-stifling taboo. Daniel Dennett talks about this to a significant extent in his book Breaking the Spell: Religion as a Natural Phenomenon.


Elephants in any colour...wear pink shades topic

I do not think people are offended by reason. They know their faith is not reason. It is faith. What ever I believe, I know it by faith. Reason is different. They are two separate faculties. Humans do not live by reason alone. And you are not going to convince them to the contrary. If I am religious I will avoid Darwin, Dawkins, Dennet, or Gould, or whomever. Religion and politics are two separate spheres of influence, and are mutually exclusive.


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velodog
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23 Apr 2008, 4:27 pm

Religion and Politics are not mutually exclusive. If that were the case, then why did the Pope recently address the UN? Avoid Darwin all you want. Maybe I was wrong to think that it is not okay for a man to kill his son based on hearing voices.



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23 Apr 2008, 5:02 pm

velodog wrote:
Religion and Politics are not mutually exclusive. If that were the case, then why did the Pope recently address the UN? Avoid Darwin all you want. Maybe I was wrong to think that it is not okay for a man to kill his son based on hearing voices.


Parallel views topic

I do not know what type of religion/political mix you have in the USA, but here in Canada there is a strict separation of church and state. All religions are tolerated, as are atheists, humanists, agnostics, pagans, etc. No one religion trumps another. The Dalai Lama, Pope John Paul II, the Arch Bishop of Canterbury Rabbis/Israeli politicos and a Muslim leader have all addressed our Federal House of Parliament in Ottawa. They limited their speech to humanitarian issues, transcending politics and religion. The Pope's UN speech was a message of goodwill, or you do not believe, it was just hot air. Your choice. This is not party politics.


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23 Apr 2008, 5:17 pm

sartresue wrote:
Elephants in any colour...wear pink shades topic

I do not think people are offended by reason. They know their faith is not reason. It is faith. What ever I believe, I know it by faith. Reason is different. They are two separate faculties. Humans do not live by reason alone. And you are not going to convince them to the contrary. If I am religious I will avoid Darwin, Dawkins, Dennet, or Gould, or whomever. Religion and politics are two separate spheres of influence, and are mutually exclusive.


That's a cop out, you are trying to rationalize the taboo against criticizing religion Dennett talked about. Claims of divine revelation are both unfalsifiable and conflict with each other, and thus they do not count as knowledge.


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23 Apr 2008, 5:27 pm

Greyhound wrote:
REM wrote:
I like the fact that i don't have santa oh i mean "god" telling me how to live my life.

Yeah, like Santa has so much to do with God :roll:


Its the same concept.



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23 Apr 2008, 5:45 pm

Odin wrote:
sartresue wrote:
Elephants in any colour...wear pink shades topic

I do not think people are offended by reason. They know their faith is not reason. It is faith. What ever I believe, I know it by faith. Reason is different. They are two separate faculties. Humans do not live by reason alone. And you are not going to convince them to the contrary. If I am religious I will avoid Darwin, Dawkins, Dennet, or Gould, or whomever. Religion and politics are two separate spheres of influence, and are mutually exclusive.


That's a cop out, you are trying to rationalize the taboo against criticizing religion Dennett talked about. Claims of divine revelation are both unfalsifiable and conflict with each other, and thus they do not count as knowledge.


Odin, I am not saying you or anyone else cannot criticize religion.
Of course faith cannot be proved. It is by faith alone. Intuition and hunches cannot be proved either. And my dear old grandmother is going to believe what she wants. She does not give a flying **** if God has morphed into Darwin himself. She will believe what she has always believed and this gives her great comfort, and for me to tell her otherwise is just a waste of time. I respect her and her beliefs. I am not going to tell people what they can and cannot think, no matter how reasonable and logical and falsifiable it is.

I was similar to you in your zealousness when I was younger, but as I have aged, I realize that some people do not want to be convinced by reason. If it means anything, I share your views when it comes to religion. I just no longer try to convince some people to the contrary. It ain't worth it.


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23 Apr 2008, 6:14 pm

sartresue wrote:
Odin wrote:
, I am not saying you or anyone else cannot criticize religion.
Of course faith cannot be proved. It is by faith alone. Intuition and hunches cannot be proved either. And my dear old grandmother is going to believe what she wants. She does not give a flying **** if God has morphed into Darwin himself. She will believe what she has always believed and this gives her great comfort, and for me to tell her otherwise is just a waste of time. I respect her and her beliefs. I am not going to tell people what they can and cannot think, no matter how reasonable and logical and falsifiable it is.

I was similar to you in your zealousness when I was younger, but as I have aged, I realize that some people do not want to be convinced by reason. If it means anything, I share your views when it comes to religion. I just no longer try to convince some people to the contrary. It ain't worth it.


Now I really don't get the point of your apparent irritation. This is the internet and people have the option of taking part in this discussion or not, as they choose. No one in this thread is going into someone else's home or church to harass them.



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23 Apr 2008, 6:26 pm

I'm NOT religious! I'm SPIRITUAL!


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23 Apr 2008, 11:46 pm

velodog wrote:
What weak arguments?

1) Based on his treatment of Ishmael, was Abraham a good father?

2) Granted that Yahweh's demand that Isaac be sacrificed was not presented as a joke in the Bible, was it any less of a cruel , callous act? Is it okay to lampoon tyrants?

3) The Christian side is free to tell me that I am going to Hell. This has never caused me to break down and cry. I seriously doubt that any of my posts have caused them to cry either.


You still haven't proven it's not true. Just given reasons to think it's not certain.


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23 Apr 2008, 11:54 pm

morning_after wrote:
velodog wrote:
What weak arguments?

1) Based on his treatment of Ishmael, was Abraham a good father?

2) Granted that Yahweh's demand that Isaac be sacrificed was not presented as a joke in the Bible, was it any less of a cruel , callous act? Is it okay to lampoon tyrants?

3) The Christian side is free to tell me that I am going to Hell. This has never caused me to break down and cry. I seriously doubt that any of my posts have caused them to cry either.


You still haven't proven it's not true. Just given reasons to think it's not certain.


What exactly is the proof that you are demanding?



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23 Apr 2008, 11:55 pm

velodog wrote:
sartresue wrote:
Odin wrote:
, I am not saying you or anyone else cannot criticize religion.
Of course faith cannot be proved. It is by faith alone. Intuition and hunches cannot be proved either. And my dear old grandmother is going to believe what she wants. She does not give a flying **** if God has morphed into Darwin himself. She will believe what she has always believed and this gives her great comfort, and for me to tell her otherwise is just a waste of time. I respect her and her beliefs. I am not going to tell people what they can and cannot think, no matter how reasonable and logical and falsifiable it is.

I was similar to you in your zealousness when I was younger, but as I have aged, I realize that some people do not want to be convinced by reason. If it means anything, I share your views when it comes to religion. I just no longer try to convince some people to the contrary. It ain't worth it.


Now I really don't get the point of your apparent irritation. This is the internet and people have the option of taking part in this discussion or not, as they choose. No one in this thread is going into someone else's home or church to harass them.


Umm... I don't sense any irritation in him. I think he's just trying to say he holds the same views and used to be zealous, but realized arguing the issue with some people wasn't worth the trouble.

As far as Abraham goes, the guy came from a somewhat barbaric culture. People were killed for all sorts of offenses in the bible.

I don't always know why, but part of me figures that this sort of thing probably happened because no one had the ability to understand any other form of justice.


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23 Apr 2008, 11:56 pm

velodog wrote:
morning_after wrote:
velodog wrote:
What weak arguments?

1) Based on his treatment of Ishmael, was Abraham a good father?

2) Granted that Yahweh's demand that Isaac be sacrificed was not presented as a joke in the Bible, was it any less of a cruel , callous act? Is it okay to lampoon tyrants?

3) The Christian side is free to tell me that I am going to Hell. This has never caused me to break down and cry. I seriously doubt that any of my posts have caused them to cry either.


You still haven't proven it's not true. Just given reasons to think it's not certain.


What exactly is the proof that you are demanding?


Proof that God doesn't exist.


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velodog
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24 Apr 2008, 12:06 am

morning_after wrote:
velodog wrote:
sartresue wrote:
Odin wrote:
, I am not saying you or anyone else cannot criticize religion.
Of course faith cannot be proved. It is by faith alone. Intuition and hunches cannot be proved either. And my dear old grandmother is going to believe what she wants. She does not give a flying **** if God has morphed into Darwin himself. She will believe what she has always believed and this gives her great comfort, and for me to tell her otherwise is just a waste of time. I respect her and her beliefs. I am not going to tell people what they can and cannot think, no matter how reasonable and logical and falsifiable it is.

I was similar to you in your zealousness when I was younger, but as I have aged, I realize that some people do not want to be convinced by reason. If it means anything, I share your views when it comes to religion. I just no longer try to convince some people to the contrary. It ain't worth it.


Now I really don't get the point of your apparent irritation. This is the internet and people have the option of taking part in this discussion or not, as they choose. No one in this thread is going into someone else's home or church to harass them.


Umm... I don't sense any irritation in him. I think he's just trying to say he holds the same views and used to be zealous, but realized arguing the issue with some people wasn't worth the trouble.

As far as Abraham goes, the guy came from a somewhat barbaric culture. People were killed for all sorts of offenses in the bible.

I don't always know why, but part of me figures that this sort of thing probably happened because no one had the ability to understand any other form of justice.


Actually morning_after, this post was directed at figuring out why satresue had her knickers in a knot of righteous indignation over us unbelievers picking on poor helpless Christians. Kinda like Billy Jack did for the Indians.



velodog
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24 Apr 2008, 12:14 am

morning_after wrote:
What exactly is the proof that you are demanding?


Proof that God doesn't exist.[/quote]

morning_after, I do believe in scientific method, which has 4 points:
1) Observation
2) Hypothesis
3) Experimentation
4) Repeatable results

Since I have yet to see, or note any other evidence of Yahweh outside of stories in the Bible then I see no reason to go to step 2. The burden of proof is on the believers.



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24 Apr 2008, 2:15 am

Yet a negative cannot be proven. Nobody in his right mind would attempt to use the scientific method to do so. God may exist, you cannot prove that there isn't an invisible man watching us.