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whitelightning777
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12 Nov 2009, 4:10 am

Fidget wrote:
Fogman wrote:
I am also pro-choice. FWIW, why is it that the 'pro-life' people in the USA are almost always supporters of capitol punishment?


Just for the record, I'm a pro-life American, and I'm anti-capital punishment. I also find it ironic that many pro-lifers are pro-death penalty.


This is mainly because psychopaths have free will and choose violence.

Example (s): Ted Bundy's escape from prison or the DC sniper. I wonder whether or not life without parole and the infighting among inmates is ALWAYS more humane then capitol punishment. Some criminals request executions and waive a lot of their rights to appeals. The suicide rate is rather high, especially in maximum security prisons. :twisted:

Hmmmm... :roll:

Tim McVeigh is a good example. He demanded that the cameras be turned off a few hours each night and that there be no autopsy after he was dead. Beyond that, he didn't max out the appeals.

In fact, prisoners occasionally sue corrections officials demanding racial segregation... because they can't stop participating in race riots and stabbing each other to death. Prison rape... 'nuff said.

The unborn don't (yet) commit crimes and are harmless. Philosophically speaking; These cases have almost nothing to do with one another. :idea:



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07 Dec 2009, 8:13 pm

From what I have read, Planned Parenthood has racist roots. I am pro-life, but I am not militant about it..However, I wish we, as a society, were more supportive of women who find themselves with an unwanted pregnancy, and encouraged them to have the baby and give it up for adoption. It bothers me that by allowing abortion to be legal, and socially acceptable, it confuses young girls. It's not exactly a "medical procedure". In late term abortions there are horrifying stories of how they stab the baby's skull and suck it's brain out, then pull it's body out piece by piece, and throw it in a garbage can. Surely, we are better than that!


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07 Dec 2009, 10:20 pm

I am quite confused by the "pro-life" movement.
1) It only seems to apply to humans.
2) It often seems only to apply to fetuses and sometimes to prison inmates.
3) It never seems to apply to a pedestrian trying to cross the street at a busy intersection.
4) It only seems to apply to the current generation and ignores the problem of human over-population.

I'd be more likely to be "pro-life" if it applied to the planet as a whole.



whitelightning777
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08 Dec 2009, 7:15 am

t0 wrote:
I am quite confused by the "pro-life" movement.
1) It only seems to apply to humans.

Of course, animal treatment issue. They aren't people. They can't vote either.

2) It often seems only to apply to fetuses and sometimes to prison inmates.

Fetuses are harmless, human beings who have not broken the law. Inmates have already had their chance to be good citizens and threw it away. Thus, they forfeit their rights.

3) It never seems to apply to a pedestrian trying to cross the street at a busy intersection.

We can't protect people from their own stupidity. However, anyone who survives will be rushed to a hospital and given life saving treatment regardless of whether they can pay. This question is already settled in favor of the injured person. While treatment and the situation isn't perfect, we always try.

4) It only seems to apply to the current generation and ignores the problem of human over-population.

The correct way to control population is birth control, not murdering innocent people. Why not a gulag? They also reduce the "useless eaters" with ruthless efficiency. Besides, there are ways to make the carrying capacity of Earth far more efficient then it already is.

I'd be more likely to be "pro-life" if it applied to the planet as a whole.


Those who stand for everything and everyone stand for nothing. We have to have some sort of standards, namely favoring innocent people against all others who act with good judgement. If someone or something attacks us, we can't guarantee their safety. Does a snarling rabid dog have the same right to life as the 2 year old that he threatens? The suggestion is laughable.



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08 Dec 2009, 9:58 am

t0 wrote:
3) It never seems to apply to a pedestrian trying to cross the street at a busy intersection.


This. As I don't have a license.

Where is my rally?


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08 Dec 2009, 10:10 am

whitelightning777 wrote:
Those who stand for everything and everyone stand for nothing. We have to have some sort of standards, namely favoring innocent people against all others who act with good judgement.



This is the sort of vague statement that runs downhill. Who is innocent? Who has good judgment? What kind of justifications do you think dictators use when committing genocide?

.

And, honestly, there are children for whom birth is a punishment. My family holds its breath when there is a pregnancy, waiting for the tests to show that the fetus doesn't have Tay Sachs.

You know what Tay Sachs is? A guarantee to a life with nothing but pain and agony - for the baby, and for the family. That is, until the child dies at some point before the age of four.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tay_sachs

A family should have a right to make informed decisions for themselves.


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t0
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08 Dec 2009, 10:15 am

whitelightning777 wrote:
Those who stand for everything and everyone stand for nothing. We have to have some sort of standards, namely favoring innocent people against all others who act with good judgement.


Then I would suggest the "pro-life" movement rename itself to something more accurate. Something like "pro-human-life when it suits us".

whitelightning777 wrote:
t0 wrote:
3) It never seems to apply to a pedestrian trying to cross the street at a busy intersection.


We can't protect people from their own stupidity.


I'm not talking about people who don't know how to legally cross the street. I'm talking about the drivers who ignore the law, talk on their phones, run red lights and nearly kill people every day because they're in too big a hurry to notice the traffic signals. In Colorado, many of the "pro-life" people buy special license plates indicating they're "pro-life" so they're easy to identify. Their plates read "Respect Life" at the bottom. It's shocking how many of these drivers disrespect and endanger others while behind the wheel of their "pro-life-mobiles". I guess the rest of our lives really aren't worth much to them.

whitelightning777 wrote:
The correct way to control population is birth control, not murdering innocent people.


Are there "pro-life" factions? My understanding is that the Catholic Church sees no difference. I believe the Catholic Church refers to itself as "pro-life" even with respect to the death penalty. If not, someone please correct me. This is why it's so confusing - there seem to be many different definitions of "pro-life".

EDIT: Grammar



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08 Dec 2009, 4:13 pm

Obviously, the hard cases like Tay Sachs, rape, incest, threat to mother's life and so on should probably at least be considered for abortion. These together are less then 3% of ALL abortions performed. When dealing with anything like this, these hard cases could be covered under self defence laws or laws that say it is OK to turn off respirators to brain dead people eg "futile medical care" or something like that.

The law should take into account special situations. This is routine for things like the tax code for example.

Most abortions are done simple so that the mother can maintain her physical appearance, to remove proof that she was sexually active or simply because she fears pain or high medical bills. These excuses are flimsy and boil down to convenience. There is really no excuse for this. While Tay Sachs is terrible, so is abortion. Have you seen how it is done or what the results look like? Don't have lunch first ! !

The other cases such as reckless humans, criminals or animals are totally separate circumstances. Mixing these unrelated cases into the abortion debate is a time honored method designed to confuse people, and lead to absurd conclusions when none need occur.

Pedestrians who get injured in car accidents are treated at the nearest medical facility. Parades do not aid in the recovery process.

Animal cruelty is already against the law, usually covering companion animals. In the lab, it is regulated. This gets interesting. If a person tosses a kitten into a blender, they have committed a felony. Likewise if they participate in dog fighting. If a person gets an abortion, even a late term one, nothing happens. In these cases, animals are MORE protected then unborn humans... rabid dogs nonwithstanding.



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08 Dec 2009, 6:13 pm

whitelightning777 wrote:
Obviously, the hard cases like Tay Sachs, rape, incest, threat to mother's life and so on should probably at least be considered for abortion. These together are less then 3% of ALL abortions performed. When dealing with anything like this, these hard cases could be covered under self defence laws or laws that say it is OK to turn off respirators to brain dead people eg "futile medical care" or something like that.
.


As there are no ways to reliably prove any of these things, we can't make that decision for them. Rape and incest are underreported crimes as it is. Many women can't or are unable to bring themselves to report them, and would be forced to have unwanted babies out of fear.

You can't truly know a woman's mind or circumstances. You can't control their behavior. When abortion was legalized, part of the premise was that forcing a woman to carry a pregnancy to term as a form of punishment is ridiculous.

I was supposed to be aborted. I wasn't, and was put up for adoption.
Does it bother me that I might not have been born? No, not really. I wouldn't be around to care.

I realized a long time ago that I, personally, would not be able to go through with an abortion. I am extra vigilant with contraception as a result. But I'm not about to say that someone else has to make the same decision I would make.

Save the passion for the children that are already here.


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08 Dec 2009, 6:16 pm

I also resent the implication of being "anti-life."
I'm pro-choice, not pro-abortion. I don't think it's anyone's idea of a spa weekend.


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08 Dec 2009, 7:35 pm

whitelightning777 wrote:
The other cases such as reckless humans, criminals or animals are totally separate circumstances. Mixing these unrelated cases into the abortion debate is a time honored method designed to confuse people, and lead to absurd conclusions when none need occur.


I'm not trying to have an "abortion debate". Go back and you'll notice that I haven't posted a single opinion regarding abortion. I'm trying to determine what "pro-life" means. Is your definition that "pro-life" is only a relevant position during a "[human fetus] abortion debate"? Or is it relevant in other discussions? If so, which ones?



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09 Dec 2009, 12:13 am

Abortion is not pretty at all, but it happens to careless people, and frankly, careless people are not what we need in this world so the less they reproduce the better it is for human evolution, in fact, these stages are part of human evolution.
I can't suffer about an abortion happening.

I agree that abortion should be considered for certain deceases that can be an extreme suffering to the being and the family(but that is a personal choice, the State should stay out of it).



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09 Dec 2009, 4:23 am

Generally pro-life means that one is against abortions for all but the worst most unusual situations. It doesn't apply to other unrelated social issues.

Of course, no one can "know" anyone's situation exactly. For instance, no one can know how well you drive and how much your car can handle. We still have speed limits. Suppose one can use PCP successfully. That doesn't mean that we don't ban this dangerous mind altering drug. With any law, there is always a trade off between safety and human decency on one hand versus personal freedom on the other. Abortion shouldn't be any different. To say otherwise is to favor some sort of anarchist position whereby no rules should apply to anyone.

I do think that not enough attention is paid to pain during childbirth. Many women are experiencing far to much unnecessary pain and being discharged from hospitals too soon. Many men are fearful of their sperm being used without their position in order to trap them into child support, which makes them pressure women into abortions. (Men are more pro-choice then women in almost EVERY poll ever taken.) It would not be a bad idea to offer both free effective birth control to any female who wants it at any age as well as 100% pain control during childbirth if you want to minimize abortion. Another words, removing the barriers to doing the right thing should be paramount. 8)



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09 Dec 2009, 4:39 am

I am pro choice, men like to meddle in the rights of women too much, now I don't agree that abortion should be used as a method of birth control, there are easier ways to prevent an unwanted pregnancy. I had second tubal pregnancy in October and needed to have it removed because the first one I had was a tubal eruption and I bleed out bad. I do have one thing to say for all you pro lifers, keep your nose out of my business or any other womens who need to have an abortion



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09 Dec 2009, 5:35 am

I'm not really pro-anything, just wondering if someone could clear something up for me about the "what if (insert person here) had been aborted?" argument.
Assuming that there is an equal likely hood of any given person being a terrorist, genius, etc
then why don't we just have babies 24/7 in the hopes of having a genius?
That came out strangely.
I guess what I'm asking (since I don't believe in God, and think that the sole reason one gets pregnant is that it happened to end up that this certain time a fetus happened to end up being concieved due to an act of sex, etc... and not due to some sort of divine will deciding that a baby should be born) well, I'd say that the population is composed of whatever percentage of bad eggs, whatever percentage of really exceptional people, and most of the mass of this pie graph is just average people, why do we only value those who happened to be born? Is it because this was closer to becoming reality? There's a possibility a child will be born any time somebody has sex, why do we only agonize over the possible children that were almost born, and not the ones that "could have" happened?
I'm sorry, reading back I see that this makes no sense whatsoever, probably sounds insensitive and cruel to some people, and will probably get someone mad, but I'm curious about this, as it's bothered me for a long time. Why do we only worry about the ones who were/may be aborted, and not the ones that simply never were?



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09 Dec 2009, 11:43 am

ASPER wrote:
I agree that abortion should be considered for certain deceases that can be an extreme suffering to the being and the family(but that is a personal choice, the State should stay out of it).


(i added bold)

This is one of those typos that amuses me.
In this case, I think everyone agrees that 'abortion' (really, though, D&C) is the appropriate course of action.


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