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MrXxx
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25 Jan 2011, 12:44 pm

Delirium wrote:
What? I was just saying that his posts read exactly like past theory that I've read, except with a find/replace. Everything he has said has been said before, and better.


But that is not all you said.

"w*k, jargon, and rehashed queer/anti-racist/feminist theory,"

And that, to me, is highly offensive and judgmental terminology.

Look, I don't agree with the OP either. But I don't find it productive to resort to that kind of speech, and would simply rather not participate in any discussion that sinks to that level. It's unnecessary, proves nothing, and doesn't contribute intelligently. It's nothing more than grade school name calling.


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Delirium
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25 Jan 2011, 12:56 pm

MrXxx wrote:
Delirium wrote:
What? I was just saying that his posts read exactly like past theory that I've read, except with a find/replace. Everything he has said has been said before, and better.


But that is not all you said.

"w*k, jargon, and rehashed queer/anti-racist/feminist theory,"

And that, to me, is highly offensive and judgmental terminology.

Look, I don't agree with the OP either. But I don't find it productive to resort to that kind of speech, and would simply rather not participate in any discussion that sinks to that level. It's unnecessary, proves nothing, and doesn't contribute intelligently. It's nothing more than grade school name calling.


Okay, you got me there.


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ci
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25 Jan 2011, 1:46 pm

If the paint was drying and the conversation was boring I needed to bring it to life again.


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neoFoucault
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26 Jan 2011, 8:26 am

People here are a waste of time

you disagree with them and they call you mentally ill

no chance of a real conversation

mods delete thread please



Last edited by neoFoucault on 27 Jan 2011, 11:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Delirium
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26 Jan 2011, 8:44 am

neoFoucault wrote:
tl;dr


Oho, so apparently since I don't agree with you, I'm brainwashed. That's not really a good argument.

Also, authoritarianism will always exist in some form.

Quote:
moar tl;dr


While mental illness is sometimes used to f**k people over, it does exist. Look at brain scans.

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Being a woman is not solely a social construct, in that biological features such as (potential) pregnancy, menstruation, and differently shaped genitals exist. Gender, however, is 100% a social construct. The question is not whether the characteristics are social, but whether the fact that they have disabling effects is social.

Also, what about transgender people?


Okay, you got me there.

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My life is none of your business. Whether I would/wouldn't share your impulsive revulsion for such people is ethically irrelevant. And “ret*d” is hate speech.


I was using 'ret*d' in the clinical sense, not in the slang sense. Also, I was asking you if you have spent any time around mentally challenged/severely autistic people because your ideas only really work for high-functioning people.

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I put this together because I'm fed up of finding nothing but liberal-humanist, pro-capitalist, quasi-conformist arguments whenever I look for autistic perspectives. These people do not represent me, they are not speaking for how I experience autism, and they are contributing to silencing me and putting me at risk.


1. You think mental illness doesn't exist and is made up to oppress people. You're actually shocked that not everybody agrees with you?
2. I think this might be the wrong place for you. Have you tried Aspies for Freedom?
3. There's an Autistic Liberation Front on Second Life.
4. I struggled with depression for most of my adolescence. I had psychotic episodes that I didn't remember until after the fact, I cut myself, I was suicidal, and almost every little thing triggered me. What should I have done?


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Last edited by Delirium on 26 Jan 2011, 11:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

MrXxx
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26 Jan 2011, 11:07 am

neoFoucault wrote:

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Look, I don't agree with the OP either. But I don't find it productive to resort to that kind of speech, and would simply rather not participate in any discussion that sinks to that level. It's unnecessary, proves nothing, and doesn't contribute intelligently. It's nothing more than grade school name calling.


So why do you object to my claim that I'm arguing with people who are closed-minded? I'm finding it a battle to get past the reaction of “it's against my preconceptions and so it must be wrong” here. Probably a losing battle. All the terms I'm using have both experiential reality for me and fairly precise theoretical meanings, but they're obviously setting off flags for other people, and they're trying to manage the challenge of my perspective by sweeping it under the carpet. And this is just the few people who have bothered to respond. I know from previous threads that there's a lot more autistic-liberals on here than are responding, so most of them have apparently decided either not to read my post or not to respond. Which doesn't give me a great deal of confidence in their openness to other perspectives or their ability to coherently articulate their own when faced with criticism.

Personally, I find the illocutionary silencing which is being performed in the discourse of the people who oppose me more offensive than the insults. But this has been going on from the start. Three posts in and I was accused of talking “pooh”. Before we heard from you, I'd been accused of “jargon”, party building, trying to model people in my image, etc. This is the kind of thing I was referring to as closed-mindedness. To be honest, I'm disappointed but not surprised that people have responded in this way, because what I'm saying is treading on toes, interrupting a dominant monologue of epistemologically privileged agents, and goes against the ideology people have been brought-up into. They need to silence what I'm saying because they can't afford to engage with the content. But I've tried throughout to stick to the content of my argument and to patiently explain things people have rashly misunderstood.


First, I don't agree with you, but it is important to understand I don't disagree with you either. I haven't read your post.

Why? Because it's length and wordiness alone indicates that whatever your thoughts are, you've more than likely already made up your mind about whatever it's about. People don't spend that much time on a point or perspective unless they are already convinced.

Second, when others disagree with you and your response is to claim they are closed minded, that just gives more weight to my first presumption.

I have no need to "silence" what you are saying, because I don't even know what you're saying, and don't really care because I just don't have the time to invest reading so many lengthy and apparently convoluted arguments. (EDIT: Sorry, that right there looks a little harsher than I meant it to. It was blunt, but I don't know how to put it any other way right now. Nothing personal intended.)

So "Why bother responding at all?" you may ask. And that's a fair question. It's just my way of letting you know that I don't find your method of presenting your point of view to be very effective.

It wasn't meant personally. Nothing I placed here was meant that way. It is only commentary on argumentative styles. Not just yours, but others as well.

You are free to ignore it and continue as you will. :wink:


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I'm not likely to be around much longer. As before when I first signed up here years ago, I'm finding that after a long hiatus, and after only a few days back on here, I'm spending way too much time here again already. So I'm requesting my account be locked, banned or whatever. It's just time. Until then, well, I dunno...


ci
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26 Jan 2011, 1:30 pm

The OP intellectual has a rigid point of view.


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NathanealWest
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26 Jan 2011, 10:07 pm

Postmodernism : What communists dreamt next to take down capitalism after the Soviet Union failed to be a free place, much less even stick to what Marx predicted.



Delirium
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26 Jan 2011, 10:53 pm

NathanealWest wrote:
Postmodernism : What communists dreamt next to take down capitalism after the Soviet Union failed to be a free place, much less even stick to what Marx predicted.


I'm sure you'll find this amusing.


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ci
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26 Jan 2011, 11:20 pm

Political science is boring as a whole to me.


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neoFoucault
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27 Jan 2011, 12:51 pm

People here are a waste of time

you disagree with them and they call you mentally ill

no chance of a real conversation

mods delete thread please



Last edited by neoFoucault on 27 Jan 2011, 11:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Delirium
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27 Jan 2011, 1:23 pm

neoFoucault wrote:
tl;dr


I get what you're saying. I just think you're full of s**t. Speaking as someone who has dealt with mental illness, I actually find your posts borderline insulting. My depression was not made up by society, it was real and it sucked ass.

Quote:
tl;dr


Boy, isn't the slippery slope argument grand?

Quote:
tl;dr


Actually, some people are trying to get authoritarian personality disorder added to the DSM. And personality disorders are real.

But hey, you keep on parroting everything Thomas Szasz says. I won't stop you.

Quote:
moar tl;dr


Right, because all psychiatrists are the same. Just because some psychiatrists are as*holes does not invalidate the entire profession. I have had godawful teachers; does that mean that teaching is BS?

Quote:
Unlike you, I don't like spreading details of my personal life online. There are people out there who will collect such details and use them against people. Call them sociopaths if you must. I don't especially want these people linking together the different places I've posted, knowing how many panic attacks I have or haven't had, knowing if I'm on any medications, or recording how many of my friends are schizophrenic. I also don't like personalising political debates with people I don't know, because it risks triggering old traumas.


I was sharing my experiences.

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I'm shocked that people with a diagnosis, who should know better, don't agree with me; or rather, do agree with the dominant position. To me, autism liberation and mad liberation go together logically, so it shocks me when someone appears to believe autistic people have (some kind of) rights but schizophrenics don't. It's a bit like if I saw an anti-racist argue that black people should have rights but Latinos shouldn't.


I don't have a problem with people who say that mentally ill people have rights. However, I do have a problem with people who insist that it doesn't exist and that it's just another way of thinking. Speaking as someone who has dealt with mental illness in the past, it really isn't.

Also, most people here aren't involved in autistic liberation, or at least not the kind you're peddling. You were the one complaining about how no one here agrees with you. You're preaching to yourself. If you want to hang out with people who agree with you, I'm sure there are some mad pride message boards out there. Or you could join Scientology; they're always looking for new members!

Quote:
There is such a thing as psychological suffering, which is not the same thing as psychological difference or “illness”, since neurotypical people also suffer. In many cases, it is entirely sociogenic (e.g. trauma). We should think of it through ideas of suffering and healing, not metaphors of illness and health.


Not all depression is trauma-based.

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I have heard a number of cases of autistic people having 'breakthroughs', suddenly integrating their emotions and sensory systems better, often in connection with an adoption of perspectivalism, New Age ideas, or some other relational philosophy. I have been through something like this myself (though less of a flash than a long process), and I think it makes autistic people a lot happier (I've heard at least one case where it also made a 'low-functioning' child 'high-functioning'). But it doesn't make people non-autistic, and it doesn't make people function better within a dominant system which is rigidly anti-perspectival – in many cases, it will make people function less well (since they become, for instance, more alert to the rights of animals and of vulnerable humans, and the integrity of ecosystems and spatial contexts). I believe this kind of healing is very important and positive, for several reasons: it increases our ability to express ourselves, it increases our happiness, it brings us closer to truth, and it gives us a special kind of awareness of the world (which incidentally, is not at all unique to autistic people, is already available to everyone – regardless of psychological type – in indigenous societies, but is radically alien to anything the typical person in the dominant system today has ever experienced or realised).


New Age stuff is BS. You might as well ask me to try bloodletting or balancing my humors.


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Last edited by Delirium on 27 Jan 2011, 2:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ci
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27 Jan 2011, 2:00 pm

When you write a mile in the shoes of the OP you might understand. There is no point in arguing, disagreeing and what not. If someone believes what they cannot prove in absolute and has their own brand of circular reasoning they believe based on an external reality they perceive exists in absolute including in what cannot be proven as non-existent it cannot be proven to them logically as not yet absolute. My suggestion is to move on.

Mr. Neo, my apologies but a smart mind is never a perfect thing and common sense is something that can evade the best of us and even me and everyone else. If what you say rocks your boat then it is for you and others that will share this belief. Otherwise those that do not conclude as you do simply live in another paralleled universes (minds) then you per say.


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Ah_Q
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27 Jan 2011, 2:22 pm

ci wrote:
If someone believes what they cannot prove in absolute and has their own brand of circular reasoning they believe based on an external reality they perceive exists in absolute including in what cannot be proven as non-existent it cannot be proven to them logically as not yet absolute.

Wow.


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ci
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27 Jan 2011, 2:24 pm

I know that was entirely diarrhea of the mind. Some more may come so watch out.


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Ah_Q
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27 Jan 2011, 2:31 pm

Thanks for the heads up.


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