vaccines certainly cause autism 100% by design

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Always possible, but probably not knowingly. Does he sound like he's intentionally trying to spread misinformation to you? (Well, maybe... but honestly, I doubt very much that he's any less sincere than you.)

Anyway, if you're going to call that working for the Illuminati, vaccineskill is surely working for them, too, by making typos that cause people not to take him seriously.

Who's to blame? topic

Scapegoats: We need them to find the answer to our problems.

Vaccines, Certain religions, no religion, fridge moms, fridge dads, fridge siblings fridge love, Pop tarts--all these and more!

The uber cause of all evil, autism, death, taxes and world calamity. Maybe even crop circles and Alien analists. The Big Wham Bam.

Yesterday's news: Life can kill you.

Next.

First, I think that there may be some families out there (who have had their children killed or permanently disabled from a vaccine preventable illness because they or someone else chose not to have their children vaccinated) who might in fact believe that it is the worst message in the world. I think that a lot of hyperbole is being used on both sides of the argument here, but I don't think we can denounce the risks associated with the anti-vaccination movement.

I think that the most frustrating part about this whole debate is that there is NO WAY to have a reasonable argument with anti-vaccination supporters. The problem is that their story is always changing...

- Anti-vaxer: MMR causes autism.
- Pro-vaxer: No, it doesn't, that has been shown.
- Anti-vaxer: Well, it isn't neccesarily MMR - it's the thimerosal! the mercury that is poisoning kids resulting in autism.
- Pro-vaxer: Thimerosal isn't present in childhood vaccines anymore. Besides, you get more bioavailable mercury in your system by eating a can of tuna than from a vaccine.
- Anti-vaxer: Yes, but Big Pharma is pushing vaccines that aren't even necessary to make more money. You don't gain immunity from vaccines, only from catching the wild virus / bacterium / etc... And the diseases aren't nearly as bad as the side effects from the vaccines!
- Pro-vaxer: Vaccines have a long and proven track record for reducing, and sometimes eliminating, the occurence of diseases. Diseases that even a few generations ago used to kill hundreds of thousands of people have been virtually eliminated. Vaccines have saved millions of lives.
- Anti-vaxer: No! They are all lying! Big Pharma is part of a huge international conspiracy that involves not only pharma companies, but doctors, nurses, government officials, and the scientific community!! They want to kill our children to make money!! ! Think about it, and it all makes sense...

Usually by this point, the pro-vaxer gets frustrated (I think that this thread has gotten to that point), because no matter what you say, the anti-vaxers will change their argument, sometimes into the territory of the ridiculous.

I used to not really care too much about anti-vaxers and their message, because I thought it didn't affect me. But, now that I have an infant son, the thought of taking him to the doctor's office makes me pause. I always wonder if the other children in the office have had their shots? Could they be here because they have measles or rubella or some other disease my son has not yet been vaccinated against because he is too young?

And I know and understand that there are many people who aren't necessarily "anti-vaxers", but they have been drawn in by the hype and the fear that the anti-vaxers are pushing. They want to do what is right, and they are driven by their emotions. The problem is that anti-vaxers are given more of a voice than they deserve - they do not have the balance of evidence (or logic!) on their side. But they have the more compelling argument simply because they can push people's buttons (so to speak).

Cave_Canem is right. We can only have rational discourse and debate with rational people.

cave_canem has slightly misreported the anti-vax argument. It's mostly accurate, but the actual argument makes slightly more sense.

I fear mercury poisoning more that I fear dogs and someone that I know fears water put together. Which is saying a lot.

Think nature. Go to the primordial. So when we were created we needed vaccines to survive? Think of life being born perfect and self sustaining. Think animals, think plants, they have natural reactions built into them to protect from harm.

Disease. Where did it come from? When Animal realized that it could have power over others, animal became man. Now Man thinks of ways to have the feeling of power over others. Now imagine if you were smart and you were in control and you wanted power. You would play a game with the inferior. The weak. How do you do this? How do you control the game and control others? Do you make them feel weak? Do you pour something nasty in their drink when they aren't looking? Then when they get sick and are hurt, YOU know why, but they don't. So what do you do now? So you do what you want now. You can give them the antidote, you can console them, you can do whatever you want to lift them out of this situation because you are in control.

Nature is a pretty cool guy. But eh, it kills people. Getting killed by disease is natural. Medicine's whole point is to fight against nature. Specifically, our own physiology, virus and bacteria.

And it works. As opposed to just "living naturally", our knowledge of medicine has caused great breakthroughs in this one modern age. Not so long ago, we didn't even know what bacteria are, now we know how to avoid them and how to kill them when inside our bodies. That's something that alt med giberish cannot do for us.

DandelionFireworks: Please not I have yet to ask the bannage of just about most people I have disagreed with in this forum, including many of the ones in this thread.

I ask "vaccineskill" to be banned because he is a troll, and quite obviously one.

Last edited by Vexcalibur on 28 Feb 2011, 7:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

Cyanide, cancer, and prions are also "natural."

Is Cyanide and Happiness natural?

It is my experience that people call troll primarily based on how unlikely they find what someone says.

SaNcheNuSS makes good points. It's true that there are poisons we're exposed to that we would not have been at the dawn of time. (Or the dawn of humanity, I guess.) Or at least, not in such quantities. It is also true that certain parts of modern medicine allow people to survive diseases they would not normally have been able to survive, and it is indeed true that many poisons are natural.

Why is everyone here arguing, calling troll, setting up and knocking down straw men, as if their opponents were utter idiots devoid of sense, virtue and value as human beings?

Can everyone here please just accept that everyone on this thread is trying to further truth and save lives? (And to feel like they're better than everyone else, clearly. But mostly to further truth and save lives.)

May I point you out to the elephant in the room. vaccineskill, a troll, two posts, both anti-vax BS, yet the second contains a bunch of conspiracy theorist rambling non-sense. Please, the more you defend such a ridiculous troll, the worse you look, and the site's moderators' image is falling at a high rate every second the guy remains unbanned and the thread open.

Nobody is calling SaNCheNuSS a troll. But naturalistic fallacies are downright a stupid thing. And antivax is, and has always been utter BS, and the harmful kind. In fact, you going around being supportive of people that say this as if it was "just an opinion", are part of the problem.

I didn't say it wasn't wrong, but I am offended by your assumption that vaccineskill is a troll based on his posts, because (with slightly better proofreading), he could be my mother or one of MANY other people who are NOT troll and who do honestly believe what they're saying.

You think it's too ridiculous to be serious. I'm telling you it isn't. I'm telling you I've heard these VERY things said IN ALL SERIOUSNESS by MULTIPLE PEOPLE who are ALL SERIOUS. And, YES, the anti-vax ideas end up taking over and pushing out useful problem-solving. Hence, only talking about this one thing.

Anti-vax arguments actually do kill and cause unnecessary suffering:

http://www.jennymccarthybodycount.com/J ... /Home.html

Please bear with me for a second.

Trolling is not based on how connected what you say is to reality, but on your intent and on the relationship of your thoughts and your words. If you would please construct a mental model of the mind of someone who believes that:
1. Vaccines cause autism without preventing illness
2. Autism is an awful illness
(Two totally wrong things, but please construct a mental model of a mind that believes both.)

Now taking those two statements as premises, what's the right course of action? Hint: going on WP and posting conspiracy theories is certainly one possibility. If you did not know the truth, and believed the aforementioned statements, would you believe that convincing people not to have their kids vaccinated caused harm? No. You would not.

It's called garbage in, garbage out. If you start from idiotic premises, you will invariably come to idiotic conclusions, and if you act on your beliefs, you will come out looking like an idiot. That doesn't mean everyone who says anything stupid is a troll.

This is an Aspie Board topic

The premises of the OP are idiotic, blatantly false and he is stirring up a vile stew.

Next.