NO link between ASD's and Planned Violence, and Why.

Post Reply New Topic

Yes. Autistic people can be violent. So can neurotypical people. It does not follow that autistic people who are violent, are violent because they are autistic. It is like saying that my tabby cat is capable of shredding my curtains; therefore, the tabby cat must be doing it because of his stripes. However, my calico cat also shreds curtains and does not have stripes; what's more, they are about equally likely to shred curtains. It is likely therefore that stripes have nothing to do with a feline's inclination towards the destruction of drapery.

(Naturally, I no longer bother with curtains.)

So far, no one has blamed Mitt Romney.

I wonder how long it will be now just because you've posted this. Chances have probably just doubled just because I quoted this and replied to you.

I didn't like the book and I didn't like how they tried to link psychopathy with AS. I gave the author the benefit of the doubt because that is what always happens in the law system when an aspie commits a murder or is accused of committing one.

There is a big difference between planned violence and violence that results from the associated feature of aggression in the DSMIV-TR. It's pretty safe to say that where there is tendency for aggression there is higher likelyhood of unplanned violence, although it may be minor in scale, to planned violence that can result in a conviction of a crime.

Aggressive children are more likely to get in "scraps" with other siblings in the family, regardless of any diagnosed disorder, as compared to passive children.

But, it is rare that leads to a criminal offense, or that it could meet the definition of planned violence.

As another analogy as a whole, a feral cat, is much more likely to get in a scrap with another cat, but we don't diagnose them with disorders for that. As my vet says, brain surgery is the solution, for cats that is. Humans usually have to "cognitive" there way out of that propensity.

What the rate of violence is for autistics compared to the rest of the population and whether autism can be linked to a cause of violence are not necessarily the same thing. It's a mistake to conflate the two.

"The cause of violence"? Is there such a thing? I suspect that there are a great many causes of violence.

I suspect that you really mean that it is not "a cause of violence" rather than "the cause of violence", but I could be wrong.

treating the liver can reduce violent tendencies
remember the sayings
livid
or sh**ty livered mood
'spew your bile'
green with envy[liver bile is green]

I find it hard to get angry if my liver is cool and not inflammed
Western diets promote an acidic bodily state and liver orientated emotions of dissatisfaction and ill at ease
Then untreated, it deteriorates from there to psychiatric disorders

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ cha ching $$$$$$$$$$$$$

There aren't any crime statistics for aggression or violence as a whole; only those involved in crimes, that include these elements of human behavior.

Considering there is no scientific agreement on what causes autism, it would be quite a stretch to suggest the autism causes the violence, when it occurs. There is an association of aggressive behavior in autistic disorder at this point in time. That is all. An association.

The Textbook of Autism Spectrum Disorders says that those with such are at an increased risk of acting out behaviors, including aggression and destructive behavior. It notes that it's usually not "planned" though, rather often being unpredictable for "normal" people.

Here

There's plenty more studies on such showing an increase in aggression (which is violence).

Perhaps there's no real correlation between autism and crime, but aggression in the context of carers is something that most likely won't ever become a crime.

Yes, I also remember seeing the study below that suggests that a subgroup of children with ASD's with symptoms of ADHD are 4 times more likely to bully than children in the general population, and also more likely to be the recipient of bullying by others. I think this research used the same or a similar source of parents surveyed in the link to the book you provided.

But, as far as the actual DSMIV-TR associated features, they don't go into any further detail than aggressive and self injurious behavior for individuals with Autistic Disorder. Aggression can either be violent or non-violent, per issues like temper tantrums, when no one else is actually hit or injured.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 100417.htm

Self-Injury, Aggression, and Related Problems, the report you linked to says the following:



Adam Lanza's actions were clearly planned. We do not yet know what, if any, purpose may have been behind it in his mind, for which the killings could have been instrumental.

Additionally, the conclusion of the report states the following:



In other words, the report admits that most of the population in the study were people with ASD's living in residential facilities, not average ASD patients. The population's ASD's were more severe than average (significant impairment and intellectual disability). The conclusion is no more than that further study is necessary, and that such study needs to be done with ASD people in the general community rather than in clinical settings.

Adam Lanza did not live in a residential facility, and planned out his attack. What this report contains does not apply to him, his circumstances or his actions.

EDIT: I meant to add, in fairness to those who do feel strongly that ASD's are linked to violence such as the Sandy Hook killings, that I have clarified the subject line of the OP, to "Planned Violence." Planned violence is really what we're talking about here. Not impulsive aggression and violence. There are some reports and lots of anecdotal evidence that there my be a higher level of impulsive aggression among autistics, but I don't believe there are any studies that show a link between that and higher levels of injury or death.

It should also be noted that in statement in the conclusion immediately following the quoted statements above...



...it is not stated why "we must assume" this, nor is it explained what "far-reaching consequences" are being referred to. This, IMHO, is an irresponsible inclusion of pure opinion into the conclusion, the strength of which is much weakened not only by the previous statements (which to those with a little training in reading and interpreting studies has already invalidated the sampling methods of the study), but is also invalidated by the entire remainder of the conclusion, which effective says the following, paraphrased:

While some research indicates higher levels of aggression in ASD's, "the empirical work is very limited, and much more is needed."

The bottom line is, this study, along with everything they looked at, are not enough to draw any definitive conclusions.

I would say that anecdotal evidence can be used to form a hypothesis which can be tested, but I would suspect that those who rely on it are often unwilling to subject their pet hypothesis to the test. In common with Karl Popper I maintain that things like the ideas of the followers of Marx and that quack Freud are not science. The ideas of Marxism and fraudian (opps I mean Freudain) psychoanalysis have never been subject to a real scientfic test so I think that they are no better than the predictions of Mystic Meg.

I would welcome a proper attempt by the Freudians and those who claim that AS is linked with serious violence to prove it thorugh a test of their hypothesis. If they can get it to survive a genuine test then I will change my tune and respect their ideas !

Untl those who claim that AS is associated with violence are willing to put their idea to an unbiased test I will have less respect for these ideas than I have for the work of Mystic Meg !

The far reaching consequences of self injurious behavior, aggression and destructive behavior among those with intellectual disabilities has already been evidenced to have far reaching consequences for some patients with intellectual disability and some of their caregivers. There are decades of research in this area. The consequences of the continued behavioral difficulties range from higher levels of stress to property damage to physical injury, for the patient and/or the caregiver.

This report indicates that there is a likely-hood that individuals with ASD and intellectual disability, in the demographic studied, have higher rates of self injurious behavior and aggression than individuals who are assessed with intellectual disability without an ASD (exclusive of an ASD).

Therefore, the assumption that there are far reaching consequences of self injurious behavior, aggression and destructive behavior for the patients with intellectual disability and ASD's, that exhibit these behaviors at higher rates, along with their caregivers, is a reasonable assumption, based on what is known about individuals with intellectual disabilities, exclusive of ASD's, that have these associated behavioral difficulties.

The summary points of the conclusion is that in previous studies among children and adults with ASD's, in samples with significant intellectual disability and other handicaps, the probability of self injurious behaviors was likely at 20% or above. And that individuals with ASD's appear to have levels of aggression that are higher than those with intellectual disability and other developmental disabilities. Also, that the overall prevalence of aggression is not clear, and further research needs to be done in large community based samples.

The correlation of aggression in bullying type behavior in a subgroup of individuals diagnosed with ASD's who have symptoms of ADHD/ADD, has already been established in a large nation wide survey of parents of children with ASD, in the link I quoted in my previous post and will provide again below. A similar general finding associated with bullying behavior was reported again recently in the links to the two quotes from two other large community studies provided below.



http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-204_162-574 ... m-bullied/



http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504763_162- ... udy-shows/

None of these three studies, including the link repeated from my previous post, and quote provided below, were limited by the demographic of individuals with ASD who experienced co-morbid intellectual disability and other developmental disabilities described in the textbook of autism spectrum disorders.

Only the study quoted below, indicated that the subgroup of ASD individuals with co-morbid symptoms of ADHD/ADD, exhibited bullying behavior that was up to 4 times more frequent than others diagnosed with ASD's and children in the general population.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 100417.htm



There is now substantial evidence that subgroups of individuals with ASD's across the entire spectrum have significant difficulties with aggressive behavior, not just those with other co-morbid intellectual disability or other developmental disabilities, in the clinical setting. All of these studies were accomplished, in the last 5 years, well after the revision of the last DSMIV-TR; whether or not the DSM5 has included associated diagnostic features in the diagnostic text associated with these new findings of associated aggressive bullying behavior among subgroups of individuals across the spectrum with ASD, remains to be seen.

Whether or not these behaviors of aggression among these subgroups of individuals on the spectrum have any association with planned violence later in life, is not an area that has been studied. In reports to date, before his violent planned crime, Lanza, was described by those who knew him as a very passive individual throughout what was reported in the course of his life from childhood, with no specific descriptions of him either bullying others or being bullied by others in an aggressive manner.

The same is true for some of the other recent rampage killers, regardless of speculation on diagnosis; some were described as odd but basically good kids, where something changed dramatically later on into early adulthood. Therefore, none of these rampage killings taken as a single incidence can necessarily be compared to anything associated with the general phenomenon of aggressive behavior in the general population anywhere, whether it is in the prison system or in the class room.

The most recent shooter was a convict that killed his grandmother with a sledgehammer, that suggested in his note left, that he enjoyed killing people.

The overwhelming majority of murderers released after their time served do not go on to commit rampage killings, but some do indeed go on to commit additional crimes, potentially murder. At least in this most recent case the sledgehammer and the Grandmother, provide clues of a most disturbing type of mental disturbance or rage induced violence, as I don't think it is likely he would have been released from jail as early as he was, if it was considered premeditated murder.

But, if this was the type of case history involved with most of these rampage killers, there would not likely be as much discussion on what went wrong from point A to point B, in the person's life. I think this is part of why people look so hard to grasp at any concrete reason to provide an objective reason why people like Holmes and Lanza might commit a horrifying crime, because these shy quiet kids, are not the type of people that the general public usually fears walking through a mall or on a dark street. It shatters decades old preconceived notions for good reasons.

It's the guy with the sledgehammer that killed his grandmother and got out of prison, that people are looking out for already, not quiet unimposing young adult males, that are just considered odd to most, rather than anything to be concerned about per physical threat to life and/or property. Humans are always looking for ways to identify threats to life and property. It is terrifying to some, to know that there are invisible threats.

And some will grasp on to any explanation to avoid the chaos of reality. Some people are going to hold on to the Asperger's explanation at this point as the last two school shooters were identified in the press as self-identified or identified by others as having Asperger's syndrome, no matter that the reality is at most a 1.6% probability in the very rare crime of rampage killings, per the last 62 cases identified, in the last 30 years, in the "Mother Jones Article".

The new flavor of rationale could be convicts released from prison that murdered family members, per the recent incident, but that is already a preconceived notion of what would be expected. Before Asperger's it was sociopathy and schizophrenia in rampage killings; now Asperger's is added to the list by media identification no matter how many times the media relays the currently understood evidence that Asperger's is not more strongly associated with planned violence, just as is often the disclaimer with schizophrenia and other potential mental disorders when the rampage killer happens to have an associated mental disorder. There is a subgroup of individuals with schizophrenia identified as more predisposed to violent crimes, in past research not associated with rampage murder's, but that does not sweep the rest of the individuals with schizophrenia under that small subgroup.

It is highly unlikely that people are going to be anymore afraid of "nerds" in the mall than they were before. Asperger's is still an invisible disability, for many, unless disclosed. If anyone is carrying an arsenal of weapons in a car or on their person, there is good reason to worry, even if they "look like" what is commonly stereotyped as a "nerd" that is now generally associated with Asperger's for stereotypical identification. Other than that it is impossible to identify a rampage killer on any street, school, or in prison environments by appearance, mental diagnosis, or behavior alone. Most don't make it to a prison or mental institution after committing the act, and when they do there is little concern of early release

IOW: There are no studies linking Autism with planned violence.



IOW: Despite studies showing that agressive behaviors may be higher in autistic populations, no one so far has described these aggressive characteristics in Lanza, so there is no link known to exist between agressive behaviors in autism, and the Sandy Hook killings.

(Just so you know, although I admire your ability to weed through and process a massive amount of knowledge and material, I have severe ADD, and need things broken down pretty succinctly, so I tend to narrow in on specifics closely related to the specific information I'm seeking, and ask yes or no questions. It took me over a half hour to weed this out of your post. )

Sorry, I was also diagnosed with what used to be called hyperactivity from the time I was an infant. I can read fast, but have a difficult time comprehending and describing anything I read in words. It took me a matter of seconds to read your post, but much longer to respond to it. Your response was definitely more concise than mine. I wish I could be more concise in my communication in writing, but it is an ability I do not currently have.. Even more difficult attempting it verbally.

My immediate impression was that the book that was referenced is a highly regarded and recently published textbook on Autism Spectrum Disorders, and there were likely more details to be explored in an assessment of the author's efforts. Sorry for the excessive details to explain that point.

In regard to the topic, as it has evolved to planned violence. It's not really an issue I think of whether or not the general public is concerned about whether people on the spectrum are more likely to participate in planned violence or not.

I think it is more of an issue, of whether or not they believe there is a mental instability associated with Asperger's that could lead to these described unassuming passive young adult males, to break from reality, or otherwise as some describe it to "snap".

Most individuals with psychotic breaks from reality do not commit violent crimes, but there is an identified subgroup of individuals among those with schizophrenia that does. The Loughner case was an extreme type of that rare incident. But, this does not mean that, overall, schizophrenics are predisposed to commit either planned violence, a violent crime and/or the crime of rampage killings.

Anti-social personality disorder, in the study that exists, that I presented earlier in another thread, was non-existent among 62 individuals diagnosed with Asperger's syndrome.

However, psychosis is not non-existent in young adult males diagnosed with Asperger's according to the ICD10. There is no indication in studies that psychosis in this small identified subgroup of young adults with Asperger's is associated with planned violence, a crime of violence and/or rampage killings, but the DSMIV does not consider the level of psychosis seen in young adults with Asperger's, as one even worth mentioning in that diagnostic manual.

There are no studies at all that I am aware of that even address the general issue of psychosis and Asperger's in the US, identified in the ICD10. There is no wonder that any potential of an association of psychosis and planned violent action or violent crime, in previously described passive individuals, in a small subgroup of individuals with Asperger's, is still in uncharted territory.

This is the second report of a very bizarre school shooting in less than a month that has been associated with individuals either described as self-identified or reported as having Asperger's syndrome. It's not usually the general propensity toward planned violence or violent crime that the general public remembers. It is the type of bizarre nature of the crime, whatever disorder mentioned the individual is assessed as likely having, the kill counts, and the type of weapons that are used that is usually remembered and discussed in the media.

Planned violence described resulting in Violent Crimes potentially associated with psychosis is a rare category, and neither necessarily indicative of the potential behavior of schizophrenics or Autistics as a whole who may or may not experience psychosis in life.

Perhaps the issue of Asperger's and potential psychosis is more of a hidden one because of the greater stigma associated with psychosis.

In some very rare cases, the potential ability to hide the psychosis could be a real problem. I don't think that potential can be completely dismissed, because it is not an area that has been studied.

The assumption some have shared in various areas on the internet that if a person with Asperger's displays psychotic symptoms they are misdiagnosed, and automatically must be schizophrenic, doesn't match the reality of the ICD10 diagnostic criteria used in 66 countries.



In summary the research as it exists suggests that Autism, Schizophrenia, and/or Psychosis as diagnoses, are not guarantees of severe difficulties with aggression, violence, planned violence, violent crimes or rampage killings for those diagnosed as such.

But, to date, aggression is a solid associated feature in the DSMIV-TR for Autistic Disorder, and psychosis is a solid associated feature specific to some young adults with Asperger's in the ICD10.

There are some people that do not acknowledge either of the last two issues, nor the other clearly defined difficulties associated with empathy in the fuller DSMIV-TR diagnostic features text for some individuals diagnosed with Autistic Disorder and Asperger's syndrome.

An assumption that the difficulties assessed that do exist, don't exist, can potentially be as harmful to some individuals on the spectrum as an assumption that there is a difficulty that is not assessed, like an assumption that most autistics and/or schizophrenics are more likely to commit a planned act of violence and/or rampage killing, than the general population.

Hope the shorter paragraphs helped.. Even if there were 18 of them.