"Person with Autism" or "Autistic"
singularitymadam
Sea Gull
Joined: 24 Aug 2007
Age: 38
Gender: Female
Posts: 213
Location: I live in a Mad Max movie. It's not as fun as it sounds.
lau wrote:
Daniel may correct me on this, but I believe he was reporting what "the experts" had said, and was being heavily sarcastic about their opinion.
Sorry, I guess I missed the sarcasm.
lau wrote:
Autism, I am coming around to believing (a strange thing for me, as I find "belief" to generally be anathema), is the result of a minor difference at a very low level of brain function.
I understand your aversion from belief; I'm the same way. But all evidence I have seen leads me to understand that autism is a higher-level functional disorder. However, I may be mistaken.
By higher-level, I am referring to the "executive function" we are typically so impaired in, as well as social interaction and imagination.
lau wrote:
Way, way above this level, on the 99th floor, we have the development of personality, etc. --- those aspects of ourselves that are accessible to our own thoughts and to diagnosis by psychologists and psychiatrists.
...
However, the deep difference is still there, and does not alter.
...
However, the deep difference is still there, and does not alter.
Perhaps I am simply misunderstanding you; if so, please correct me. But it seems as though you are contradicting yourself here. From what I can glean, you are saying that personality traits are both complex and basic functions. However, the inability to lie, for example, is a personality trait--not a neurological quirk. (The difference between these two is also a matter of much debate in the fields of neuroscience and psychology, but I'm sure you already knew that.)
lau wrote:
I also feel it becomes apparent when you consider sensory symptoms. We seem to have much greater (often too much) access to direct sense data. There is a layer, in an NT, that almost totally blocks out low level sense information, to the extent that they do not perceive most things - they replace them with with what they expect, discarding most of what is sensed.
This statement is inaccurate for the following reasons:
1. We do not have super-senses. Our access to sensory data is not enhanced in any way.
2. "Neurotypicals" do not have a special "layer" to block out information. What they do have is an ideally functioning limbic system. Perhaps this is what you were referring to. The thalamus is where all sensory input (except olfaction) is processed. This is a complex and highly necessary organ, but simply put: when it malfunctions, its close proximity to the amygdala (controls flight/fight response) triggers adverse reactions in effected individuals. This is the origin of sensory defensiveness.
3. Your assertion that people perceive only what they expect to is only partially correct. Many studies have explored this; I shan't go further into it.
lau wrote:
Anyway, I don't believe you can "take away the symptoms", or at least, not the important ones. Those "symptoms" are who I am. I can't "learn to lie" - I would not be me if I could lie.
Unlike a runny nose, which would be a symptom that I am a person with a cold, my symptoms of autism exhibit the autistic person I am.
Unlike a runny nose, which would be a symptom that I am a person with a cold, my symptoms of autism exhibit the autistic person I am.
The symptoms you are describing are personality traits. It is debatable whether or not those can (or should) be changed, but do not mistake them for neurobiological processes.
How do you define the important symptoms?
If being autistic satisfies you, then no one ever has the right or obligation to change you. I do not claim to understand the neurology of autism; no one does yet. I am suggesting that the condition does not always preclude relatively normal function. The definition of normal is so vague in this context as to be virtually meaningless, so if I say I am normal, then I am normal for me. Positive nihilism explains this idea much better than I can.
singularitymadam wrote:
lau wrote:
Autism, I am coming around to believing ... , is the result of a minor difference at a very low level of brain function.
... all evidence I have seen leads me to understand that autism is a higher-level functional disorder. However, I may be mistaken.
By higher-level, I am referring to the "executive function" we are typically so impaired in, as well as social interaction and imagination.
I feel that the "higher-level functional disorder" is merely symptomatic of a (deeply) underlying difference.
singularitymadam wrote:
lau wrote:
Way, way above this level, on the 99th floor, we have the development of personality, etc. --- those aspects of ourselves that are accessible to our own thoughts and to diagnosis by psychologists and psychiatrists.
...
However, the deep difference is still there, and does not alter.
...
However, the deep difference is still there, and does not alter.
Perhaps I am simply misunderstanding you; if so, please correct me. But it seems as though you are contradicting yourself here.
Nope.
singularitymadam wrote:
From what I can glean, you are saying that personality traits are both complex and basic functions. However, the inability to lie, for example, is a personality trait
Nope. The preference not to lie would be a personality trait. I am suggesting that the inabiliy to lie is of a different order.
singularitymadam wrote:
--not a neurological quirk. (The difference between these two is also a matter of much debate in the fields of neuroscience and psychology, but I'm sure you already knew that.)
And, I do not believe autism to be a neurological. Certainly not at the level that the science of neurology has reached, so far.
singularitymadam wrote:
lau wrote:
I also feel it becomes apparent when you consider sensory symptoms. We seem to have much greater (often too much) access to direct sense data. There is a layer, in an NT, that almost totally blocks out low level sense information, to the extent that they do not perceive most things - they replace them with with what they expect, discarding most of what is sensed.
This statement is inaccurate for the following reasons:
1. We do not have super-senses.
I did not say that.
singularitymadam wrote:
Our access to sensory data is not enhanced in any way.
I did not say that.
I "suffer" from both tinnitus and migraine aura (scotoma). I am very familiar with signal processing (including image processing). I can recognise in both my "afflictions" the precise effects that I would expect from having access (the word I used) to partially processed sense data.
singularitymadam wrote:
2. "Neurotypicals" do not have a special "layer" to block out information. What they do have is an ideally functioning limbic system. Perhaps this is what you were referring to. The thalamus is where all sensory input (except olfaction) is processed. This is a complex and highly necessary organ, but simply put: when it malfunctions, its close proximity to the amygdala (controls flight/fight response) triggers adverse reactions in effected individuals. This is the origin of sensory defensiveness.
Yes, they do have such a layer. I do too. It is mostly identical. I find myself more able to bypass it.
singularitymadam wrote:
3. Your assertion that people perceive only what they expect to is only partially correct. Many studies have explored this; I shan't go further into it.
I am, in this case, just suggesting that this is another symptomatic area where autists often seem to consciously perceive things which non-autists suppress, more consistently. Different.
singularitymadam wrote:
lau wrote:
Anyway, I don't believe you can "take away the symptoms", or at least, not the important ones. Those "symptoms" are who I am. I can't "learn to lie" - I would not be me if I could lie.
Unlike a runny nose, which would be a symptom that I am a person with a cold, my symptoms of autism exhibit the autistic person I am.
Unlike a runny nose, which would be a symptom that I am a person with a cold, my symptoms of autism exhibit the autistic person I am.
The symptoms you are describing are personality traits.
So you state, again. I disagree. Throughout, I am suggesting that the whole gamut of "personality traits" are merely concomitants of a deep organisational difference.
singularitymadam wrote:
It is debatable whether or not those can (or should) be changed, but do not mistake them for neurobiological processes.
I did not mistake them for that. I reiterate - autism is not neurobiological.
singularitymadam wrote:
How do you define the important symptoms?
As they are defined at present. I see no need to redefine them. It think that they are remarkably good at recognising a slew of ways in which, as I suggest, a different organised low (but not as low as neurobiology) level in the brain presents itself at the high level of psychology.
As I have stated, I think there are a huge number of layers between the two extremes of neurology and psychology, and almost all of those layers (floors, in my analogy) are currently unexplored.
singularitymadam wrote:
If being autistic satisfies you, then no one ever has the right or obligation to change you. I do not claim to understand the neurology of autism; no one does yet. I am suggesting that the condition does not always preclude relatively normal function. The definition of normal is so vague in this context as to be virtually meaningless, so if I say I am normal, then I am normal for me. Positive nihilism explains this idea much better than I can.
I suggest there is NO "neurology of autism". I can define "normal". I'm unfamiliar with "Positive nihilism".
_________________
"Striking up conversations with strangers is an autistic person's version of extreme sports." Kamran Nazeer
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