McKinnon Deportation

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I'm going to continue saying over, and over again that Gary McKinnon needs to be tried in the United States for his crimes and I am so sick of the AS being an excuse because he's not a moron.. he *knew* what he was doing was wrong and he stated that he would do it again.. therefore he is a threat. Arrest him, jail him and don't let him out. I don't care if he has AS, I have Autism too and I would expect that if I did a crime like that .. I would not cry if I had to be tried in the place where I committed the crime. I would not be screaming "BUT I HAVE AUTISM, SO I MUST BE ALLOWED TO DO ILLEGAL THINGS AND GET AWAY WITH THEM. WOE IS ME!" *rolls eyes*

Unless you guys want to all be seen as criminals, along with monsters. . then let him be pardoned of his charges. However, I do not want to be associated with a criminal. *shrug*

I haven't seen one post in this thread asking that he is "pardoned", people just think he should stand trial in the UK.

WhittenKitten, repeating something "over and over again" won't make it true and you'll convince no one to change their opinion by calling them monsters and criminals (something that is BTW against WP rules).

LOLOL, I was not calling them "monsters and criminals", I said that certain people may view those with AS as being those who are monsters and criminals. I have already been asked by someone if I did illegal things and then got away with it because I was autistic so I could do "anything" i wanted and not have to worry about being charged cause I am Autistic.

That is what I am saying, but I guess you did not get the message correctly. I do not view anyone on here as a monster or criminal. Though I view McKinnon as a criminal.. cause.. he is one.

Autism is a clinical disorder that causes clinically significant distress and/or impairment. As such, distress and impairment arising from Autism is an appropriate target of clinical or medical intervention.

Why? He has never been within the legal jurisdication of the US. Should someone in America be extradited to China for publishing anti-communism materials where this is a criminal offence in China?

Actually I see no evidence that he did not believe what he was morally and ethically right in his actions.

That is not a sound conclusion. He is only a threat if what he is claiming he will do again actually constituted a threat in the first place, and he has the means to do the same thing again. Since there is reason to suspect that he could not have done what he has allegedly done if proper (and very basic common sense) security precautions had occured (chainging the default username password to gain access), there is no reason to believe that he poses a threat in the event that appropriate minimum security measures are consistently enacted.




So you think this person who has not caused any physical harm to anyone should be held to harsher punishment than the average murderer. I do not see how anyone could conclude as much on the basis of objective analysis.

You would expect that if you lived your entire life in your home country, and you never left your home country, you might be extradited to some foreign power to be tried by their justice system?

Indeed, which is why many people are content for Gary to be tried in the UK where he is alleged to have committed the acts he is accussed of.


Neither is Gary or his legal defence, but do not let a little thing like facts get in the way of irrational modern day witch hunting.

What a load of nonsense. Unless you are a prejudiced bigot, you do not consider that anyone characterized by a trait that has resulted in the mitigation of criminal culpability is a criminal and a monster. So tell us, do you consider everyone and anyone who has ever suffered a psychotic disorder is a criminal and a monster?

One would hope that your associative preferences would not supercede basic tennets of justice. I see no reason why whether or not you personally share a trait with someone should determine the level of justice they are in receipt of.

As for your hyperbolic and largely irrelevant nonsense about pardons, so far as I can see, the major problem most people are having with how Gary is treated is not that he has not been pardoned for having AS, but that he is being denied the right to be tried in the UK and to be protected from unjust and inappropriate extradition for the purposes of being prosecuted by a foreign power and legal jurisdiction that he has never previously been within.

As you commented earlier, if you committed a crime in a particular place, you would expect to be tried there, not in Saudi Arabia or China or some other random place.

Actually, according to both UK and US law, someone is not a criminal until they have been found guilty of a crime in a court of law. Calling someone a criminal prior to a conviction prejudices their trial and is actually a criminal offence in both the UK and the US. So where would you like to be prosecuted for this act? Turkey? Russia? How about India?

Obviously you are missing the point. The general opinion here is that he should be held accountable for his actions regardless of disability, but that the US are making a mountain out of a mole hole in their attempt to cover up their obvious idiocy and lack of security.

By all means, I want to see Gary go to court and face legal justice in this matter. However, these days you can't really call the US's treatment of people who threaten national security, even in the tiniest, "legal" or "justice". Therefore, I protest his extradition. Furthermore, you and the American government are treating him like he bombed the Pentagon, when all he did was maybe shut down their systems for a few seconds... and I highly doubt that anything related to national security would be threatened with a minute or two of server downtime.

His crime was committed, physically, in the UK, and he is a UK citizen and not a US citizen. Therefore he is not under the jurisdiction of the US, and legally can't be extradited to be tried in the US. But then again, we all know how the US likes to bully other countries into looking the other way when they want to do something against international law. They probably coerced and/or the British into signing that treaty to make them send any anti-Americans their way so they can have their way with them. This whole situation is nothing more than the US's attempt to cover up their blatant security flaws, and the fact that they f****d up.

But I don't expect you to believe me, anyway. After all, judging by your attitude so far, you're probably a member of the great American sheeple flock. You people blindly follow your government and support their every move when it comes to dealing with national security, and listen to their lies and BS about how we need to brutally punish anyone who gets in our way. You know that there is a technical term for that. It's called "fascism." You may not think you're being fascist, butt you're a textbook definition.

This is the reason why I refuse to associate myself with being an American any longer, despite the fact that I was born and raised here. Call me a traitor, but my real loyalty lies with the Constitution that my country's government swore they'd uphold... and then tore it to shreds.

Not that I think what the guy did was right but saying you hope he gets "the maximum sentence" just shows what an ignorant person you are. First let me say atleast it was a guy like this and he wasn't FSB or Chinese. I mean honestly how much damage did he really cause?

They should just keep tabs on the guy and be thankful he pointed out a loophole (he sort of did) in the system before someone with malous intent found it.

Its just as well that few of the posters here will ever serve on jury duty, given the kneejerk lynch-mob reactions. Almost without fail, if there is a thread with a crime of some sort, then there WILL be people posting "I hope they lock him up and throw away the key/kill him where he stands/cut off his genitalia." often before the person is even tried or convicted. There is no concept of justice or mercy or even a sensible grap of relative balance. A sense of scale would be nice, which is why taking the case to the USA is a bad idea.. all the litlte patriots will be there screaming for blood, be they prosecution, defense, judge or jury. Mckinnon cannot receive an unbiased hearing if it is heard in the U.S.. and I reiterate.. the USA does not concern itself with the rights of foreign citizens, nor is it concerned about international law. No nation which kidnaps foreign nationals and incarcerates them without trial for indefinite periods can be trusted to provide justice.

being a politician or a soldier causes far more disstress. not working hard at school causes much more impairment. being autistic does causes problems, but it also has a positive side. something that needs medical intervention, like cancer or flu have no positive effects.

Being a soldier or politician is a social role not necessarily following from the functioning of the individual.
Not working hard at school does not necessarily cause impairment, and frankly I know plenty of people who did not work hard at school and are not impaired. By definition no one who is not characterized by clinically significant impairment has an ASD.

For you perhaps, but that does not qualify you to speak for everyone effected, nor does it make it not a disabiltiy. Plenty of congentively blind people would claim that their blindness has a postive side, but that does not make being blind not a disability.


You are quite wrong. The flu often does not require any medical intervention, and if having the flu caused you to stay home on 9/11 instead of going to work in one of those towers, that could arguably be described as a postive effect.

I hope they don't extradite him. I hate Obama for not sorting this thing out.

your wrong about the flu comparison because in the 9/11 example outisde factors have given it a positive effect. being autistic often gives people some very desirable traits, regardless of the outside world.

not working hard at school may not be the best example. how bout being homeless because you parents threw you out. not your fault, you cant change it, but definatley tough to live with.

blindness thing: blind people cant adapt their eyesight, the way they behave wont make them able to see. on the other hand, an autistic person who behaves the same as everyone else-which is achivable with work- is just a normal person. therfore autism is a specific way to act. it is usualy not harmful to others, and therfore there is nothing wrong with it.

"Often gives"? Being not Autistic often gives people some very desirable traits, without the associated clinically significant impairment and distress that accompanies clinical Autism. So far as is relevant to this thread, even if it is true that Gary McKinnon specifically was 'given" some desirable traits, how does that prove that it did not also "give" him undesirable traits that limit or mitigate legal culpability?

Again, it's a matter for the courts to decide according to due process, rather than for you to decide based on your social agendas.

Plenty of things are tough to live with and yet not clinical entities. If you can differentiate between the hardship of a flu and the hardship of being kicked out of home by your parents, and determine accurately which of these is a clinical condition and which is a life-circumstance (and it appears from your earlier comments that you can indeed do this) then you are just being deliberately facitious with this asinine line of argumentation.

So what? They can adapt to blindness and many can routinely behave such that others might fail to distinguish them from a sighted person at least for a short time and at least in some circumstances, which is as good as many with AS will ever accomplish and better than others (with AS can realistically achieve).


I am not aware of any Autisic person who can persistently and consistently appear to be "the same as everyone else", and I do not believe that this is actually achievable at all for the overwhelming majority of effected people. Even if this were the case, that would not make it not a disability since as you concede this would require "work" and so one is impaired, having to put work into what non-impaired people do without effort.


Autism is not merely a specific way to act. If a person is not characterized by specific impairments in typical functioning then they do not have Autism. Autism entails deficiency or dysfunction of typical species functions. It is a disability. Whether or not someone characterized by such disability happens to experience diminished legal capacity in particular circumstances is still a matter for the courts to decide.

Then how about a mitigating factor deciding whether shipping someone off to a foreign country based on a retrospectively applied Draconian law is "cruel or unusual"? After all, detaching someone with an ASD from their home country, sending them to an unfmailiar one, and trying them can cause stress to a point that is cruel and unusual. Given the neverlands Foreign nationals seem to occupy in New US Legal convention (i.e. Gitmo, "Enhanced Interrogation Techniques", & "Enemy Combatants") I doubt the judicary will be overly sensitive to this issue.

Pandd - you have an example (sort of) for what the USA would feel like if others dare tried to have legal jurisdiction over our folks. Look no further than the International Criminal Court. The International Criminal Court would be much more effective, impartial, and less skewed by nationalistic bias (not to mention the comradmanship bias) of US military tribunials. Yet such a a notion is decried as an afront upon the US's God given right to national sovereignty.

Of course, there are a few differences. For one - the ICC (being attached to no nation) doesn't have a hierarchy of standards for different nationals. It hasn't condoned (or at least left to limbo) things like torture, indefinited detention, and extraordinary rendition techniques.

I speculate that the ICC would also act more sensitively to issues of ASD and other neurological conditions which complicate court proceedings.

I advised Gary to take it to the world court. Problem is he would still be found guilty.

Knowing Americans, how could anyone say they do unusual things?

It is true we are fighting several undeclared wars, with European allies, we are not picking on the weak, for they are winning, and we seek a political solution.

Cruel as it may be, trials and prisons have been the model for over a hundred years. Before that it was tarred and feathered and run out of town on a rail, and the only ones tried were hung right after.

England used hanging, a lot, and transport to a prison colony, come back and be hung. That is how a lot of America was settled.

We do have a world record of people in prison, and more trying to get in, for the food, shelter, and mostly medical care, is by law, which is not the case for free people. If you need a couple of hundred thousand in medical care, go rob a bank, then just stand there.

We convict people in wheel chairs, and send them directly to prison hospitals.

Our mental hospital were also abused by people who took a winter vacation there every year.

We are our history, the rejects of Europe, we are wild, we own two guns per person, and we have the largest economy on earth.

Gary broke into my house to steal my alien weapons technology. He said that he knew we had it, his UFO story, and he was looking for our most advanced technology. He was caught when he was logged on with the user name and password of a Department of Defense worker.

This is some very high level spying.

If Gary does not come and tell just how he did everything working alone, then he was working for someone else, and as House said, if the Queen is on your money you are British.