Hiding The Truth For Popular Political Appeal

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Get a netbook.

I find it quite helpful, actually - especially when several different points need to be responded to.



You repeatedly say this yet you have not presented any evidence.

By the way, I rarely click on links for videos or watch embedded videos. Argument by video doesn't work for me.


Much of what is in 'the media' is not accurate or true.

Provide fully-cited quotes if you want your claims to be evaluated.


I'm not sure what you are saying here, but several interpretations that I've attempted simply are not true.


I have no idea what accusations you are referring to.

However, I am a harsh critic of a great many aspects of American society. I have lived in the U.S. all of my life.

No organization 'deserves' support.

I am more likely to support an organization that is honestly critical of the society around it than I am of one that blathers pseudo-patriotic nonsense.

Once more, clarity would be helpful.


Not sure what you are talking about.


Do you believe that any of us are not fully aware of how you feel about ASAN?

You repeatedly make very harsh accusations of them, yet I have yet to see any coherent evidence offered to back up the accusations.


ASAN is not a government organization. It has no power to compel agreement.


I believe that ASAN supports the idea of self-advocacy for people with autism.

It is what they named their organization: Autistic Self Advocacy Network.

Why do you assert that ASAN is opposed to self-advocacy?

Why do you assert that you are a self-advocate?

ASAN is not a country or a commune. It does not need to be 'democratically elected'.

If you want to belong to a 'democratically-elected' organization, start your own and try to persuade others to join you. Keep in mind that, as soon as you have recruited two others, they can out-vote you.


He ought to consider the same kind of strategy rather then making the rest of us advocates look like arses.[/quote]
Neither Ari nor the rest of ASAN is 'making the rest of us advocates look like arses'.

Frankly, all of the unsubstantiated critisism that you have had of ASAN has drawn them to my attention and made them seem rather interesting. I look forward to learning more about them from other sources.

There are far more (and better) resources to research than YouTube.

You refuse to look at embedded videos yet say I don't provide evidence. Seems fairly obvious your ignoring reality. I'm not sure if there is much I can do to make you happy other then entirely agreeing with you. I view ASAN as a extreme political instability whose tactics can garnish attention are merely leverage to appeal and further garnish loyalty by making people with autism think the world hates them and is out to get them (N.T's). Yet if you refuse to view the evidences and welcome their methods I think your just as much to blame. My only goal is to see to it that others not involved should not be effected by ASAN's unethical approaches.

I ask once more that you stop attacking people for choosing to exercise the right given to them by this forum to post anonymously.

Not only does anonymity give many of us the strength to say some very personal things in a very public place, but there are a lot of kooks that would not hesitate to abuse us or even be dangerous to us if they had easy access to our identities.

That you choose to be public about who you are is fine, but you have no right to suggest that by doing so you are more correct, or have more of a right to express your opinions, than the rest of us.

They post up their videos on there. It's not opinions but recorded actual events documenting their behaviors toward the public and internal logic.

Everyone has the right to believe what they may. Each of us can manifest these liberties. Disagreeing is not unreasonable nor is it against the rules. Your statemented merely articulate you must be more correct because someone else might think they might be right rather then you. I just simply say manipulating the public as a right is a protected right in speech as ASAN conducts itself but I and others want no part of it. Your welcome to join them in doing so and it is not a disability bigotry to call it as it is.

I would like to see quotes with citations to back up your claims.

Many people, including yourself, have tried to waste far too much of my time on videos. I dislike watching most suggested videos. I do not think I should have to wade through a video, trying to guess which statement or gesture the recommender thinks is so incriminating.

If you think a video contains evidence supporting some charge you are making, provide a transcript of each section of the video that you think is relevant, provide the time marker at which each section begins and ends, and tell us in your own words why you think that statement, or gesture, or whatnot provides evidence for your claim.

To do otherwise is lazy and utterly ineffective.

Posting videos is not the same as presenting evidence.


Not true.

I'm trying to explain to you why your attacks on ASAN are ineffective, that you have provided no evidence to back up your accusations, and that you have not provided us with a coherent argument.

It is no wonder that you are not persuasive.


Here is what I would like you to do:

* Please stop virulently attacking organizations and people
* Please stop making unsubstantiated claims
* Please stop talking about pride
* Please stop talking about abortion
* Please stop saying the same things over and over and over again
* Please find some new, nicer, friendlier, and more constructive things to post about

Your doing all of these things would make me happier.

Thank you for asking.


I disagree. Next topic...


You have yet to provide any evidence or any coherent argument.

Instead you attack people for asking for these things from you.

Please stop this behavior.


You have yet to explain why you think ASAN's behavior is unethical, to provide evidence for your claims, or to explain why your standards of ethical behavior should be accepted by the rest of us.

I have already explained these things I should not have to keep repeating myself. You refuse to look at videos which are evidence and then say I should not attack them which is considered disagreeing with them. People with autism have the right to disagree with ASAN's approach and want nothing to do with it. I am not the only person with autism who views their approaches to be out of line and unethical.

It doesn't matter to me if you respond or attempt to 'explain'.

I am simply pointing out that, as far as I can tell, you have not presented any evidence in support of your outrageous claims, nor have you made any coherent argument.

Please do not feel that you have to keep trying on my account.


You have not provided any evidence.

I have already explained what you would have to do to have any reasonable person accept a video as evidence. You have not even come close to that standard.

You will attack whomever you will. I wish you would stop all of your attacks.

What I object to most of all, however, is your repeated claim that you have provided evidence of the claims you make in your attacks. You have not done so.

Please stop all of this.


Yes, we have that right (in my opinion).

No one has said that we don't.

If you don't want to have anything to do with ASAN, then don't have anything to do with ASAN.



I have never thought that you were unique in these things.

The evidence is on the videos of them protesting. I am not sure what else to say. Their methods are extraordinarily rude, conflicts with other issues and their approach myself and others do not support. HOWEVER I believe there are ways of presenting the unrelated to abortion issues in ways to gain more success. I suggest a kind, positive and considerate approach toward the public. As ASAN has centered itself on abortion issues to create hard feelings and confrontation it was their choices and is not about my mentioning what they do because they are attacking others with quite allot of venom and false propaganda. Just because someone disagrees with them does not make them disability bigots and as a person with autism my opinions and other peoples opinions with autism that differ from their beliefs and opinions are just as important as what they believe their opinions are worth.

They are not THE Autistic or Autism Self-advocacy Network of all Networks. They cater to only certain thinking styles and that all. The public should understand that so others opinions can be progressed in an equal fashion in the media and in society.

If anyone wants to know ASAN's positions on various issues, I would recommend watching various videos on YouTube, particularly those which are speeches given by Ari Ne'eman, reading interviews, visiting the website, etc. These materials will give you a pretty good idea of ASAN's values and positions. Listening to people on this board who regularly misrepresent ASAN just leads to a lot of needless confusion.

Here are some good places to start.

Interview with Ari Ne'eman in Wired magazine

Video of recent address by Ari Ne'eman

Various videos of ASAN Vice President Scott Robertson

Disability Studies Quarterly article by Ari Ne'eman

This is only a sampling of what there is.

Just as it's not reasonable to learn about what Barack Obama's positions are by listening to Glenn Beck, neither is it possible to get particularly good information about ASAN by listening to some people on this board. Go directly to the source.

I've taken allot of time to listen to just about all the videos and a few several times. I can agree with a moderate amount of it but I cannot agree with their approaches toward the public in how they combine issues. It is a public relations risk that is common sense. Some issues I have disagreed with have to do with mainstream education integration instead of accommodating settings when an individual chooses otherwise, the fight against funding for individuals that run away from parents as simply a civil rights violation and their inability to compromise by looking at autism the disorder label as the obstacles (the disability) someone experiences and tolerating others choices for cure.

I really believe however with as much as they have done to get attention they have done more harm then good for people with autism. they should also allow the free say of diverse opinions on their central platform website. It's all very one sided and artificial with regards to a true respect for self-advocacy in diversity.

I enjoyed your last paragraph.

Thanks for the suggestions. I'll probably read/watch the material.

For those who think I am being inconsistent, one person is sharing resources without an axe to grind while another is claiming evidence for villainous deeds. I hold them to different standards.

Ok then hold ASAN to the same standard as they have had an Axe to grind since day one. I'm more the type of advocate of getting along to get along but they created quite the political mess. This was not my doing as they created it. Their axe to grind was quite extreme and all I'm doing is reducing the damages to innocent people who have nothing to do with it.

The poster said the same thing about seeing the videos yourself as I said to you. You also have an axe to grind as a proclaimed pride advocate. Pride factions are the most confrontational themes of social activism in the autism community. Personally I've found a very stable success in advocacy with just being nice toward the public and keeping it simple. People keep asking me for proof of that and all I can say is $20,000 a year and growing in work product sales is evidence enough having started from scratch and in a small area.

A word of advice: That really isn't apparent here, from what you post on a daily basis.