Future crimes against cure/treatment developers?

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TLPG. So, being able to interact on NT terms, and being able to do it well, will ultimately lead to failure in being social? I don't think so. If it hasn't happened already, with myself still improving, then it won't happen as I continue to piece together a bulletproof system of socializing.

I made friends with my integrity, my personality, and by learning to follow the cues and subtleties of NT interaction. I learned to small talk, to socialize, and to make friends the way NTs make friends. The way NTs socialize is not a bad thing, nor is it useless. Doing as NTs do is not a crime, and if it is, then I'll break it and laugh. Mocking me, ridiculing how I live my life, will not change how I live it. If you want me to change my life, make me. Otherwise, leave your insults and negative attitudes left unsaid. I'm not going to sit here and be told that I'm unable to achieve any success or happiness by socializing, by the person who had their "friends" harass me and tell me to kill myself.

I do not see anything from you to show pure intentions, and the constant mockery and the following of my posts to argue with is starting to get on my nerves. Stop.

Remnant, stop it. If you want to spew hatred, do it by yourself. I don't like reading the poison. I know I had things rough, and so did so many others, but you don't see me attacking NTs for what the bad ones did to me. I nearly died several times, and some of those were by my own hand. My childhood was a brutal, bloody, shameful hell with no respite. Am I to let that drive me into blind hate and make me waste my life on petty grudges? Am I to be a weak man and give in to carnal emotion of simple reaction? Either learn from what happened to you and put it to good use, or take your bile and stuff it. Tell those who are of like mind, not me, or anyone else on this forum who doesn't believe that NTs are the evil monsters you call them.

Fuzzy: I told you it would be hard to explain it. What I do, it's hard to put into words. I tried, and obviously, I was right.

I succeed at doing whatever I do. People can't tell the difference between me and any other normal person. My friends can't tell; I actually had to out myself, and they've completely forgotten I told them. Diagnosed at age eight, I obviously had AS. After I started to do what I do, starting at age ten, I've(for lack of a better description) gotten better. I already said I can't explain it, but it works for me, so I can't understand why you're taking an issue with it.

If you've got a theory, then I'm interested in hearing it, if it may shed some light on what it is that I'm doing, or helps me describe it better.

Remnant, ddrapayo, I believe it's called justifiable homicide. Killing someone else in defense of your life. You could look it up for a better description online.

I'd like to say I have a pretty good idea of what you are talking about. I wont pretend to read your mind though.

What [i]I[/b] did at the bar was watch what people did. In that situation you see certain circumstances play out over and over, night after night. In many circumstances I could count on seeing the same event played out by multiple people in an evening. Life in fast forward almost, except it was of narrow scope. I also frequented malls, restaurants, either alone or with small groups of people. We(the bar staff and I) ate a late meal somewhere after the bar closed).

Watching people was actually my special interest at the for years prior to working there, and that was part of the reason I was offered(and took) the job. I've collected books on behavior and body language since I was a youth.

Based on all that I was able to predict with a good deal of precision what people were going to do. I could tell when they were going to swing at me. I could tell which way they would travel as they walked around, These are rote trainable skills for all humans. Boxers do it for example, and Police are trained to analyse peoples actions. Sales people receive training on shaping and reading peoples actions too. Politicians make a science of it.

This is hugely beneficial to all people, and it can greatly enhance a persons social standings and success. I highly recomend that all aspies study behavior properly, Organizations such as toastmasters can really help, and its free.

What I have learned is that people are often just automations. Very complicated but predicable machines. You can make certain motions and they will respond like clockwork in some instances. Its rather disturbing and hasnt helped my empathy much.

But there is a timing, a fluidity that some aspies dont have. Coupled with a lack of proper eye contact, it renders them with the image of shiftiness or dishonesty. Perhaps people see them as untrustworthy or not worthy of respect. If you have that grace, count yourself lucky.

Here is a good example. Next time you are talking with someone, doing small talk, cross your arms. very shortly they should do the same. then gracefully reach up and brush your hand over your hair. Again, within a minute they will touch their head as well.

I'll get to that theory soon. its not related to this though.

I'd like to speak more on factors of body language. Would you start a topic?

I'm sure it's not like that... It's like that fluidity and timing, sort of. I learned through doing, and I started to catch onto the pattern and flow of conversation. It's like... I started off clumsy, but with practice, I got better. I dunno, it is hard to explain. I'll probably think better if I'm not so tired...

Sorry, I'm not up to making that topic right now... I'm off to bed. I'm up way, way too late as it is... Ugh. I ought to spend more time on WP, and less on reading fantasy.
Goodnight.

You spoke of small talk as though it was the whole answer - and it's not. Socialising is a lot more complicated than that, and there is no way to predict it. Hence, it is impossible to make it "bulletproof". Especially as one ages.

Seeking such a technique is a one way ticket to social failure. Doing the hard work - as I said before - is far more rewarding. It leads to long term friendships that stand the test of time. Small talk will not achieve that - it will go nowhere near it.

Oh, give it a rest.

Small talk is part of something called socializing. I socialize well, because I do all the parts of it. I make small talk, in addition to everything else. It's called part of a greater whole. Small talk is part of that greater whole, and without it, that greater whole is smaller.

You're operating under the assumption that I'm taking static encounters and replaying them, using them for every social encounter as some kind of copy/paste for socializing. I'm doing something different, and as I said, it's hard to explain. But in essence, it's more complicated than I can describe while being so tired.

My friendships are longterm. They've been longterm, and remain that way.

I said it before, and I'll say it again, though less politely. Shut up. If you're just going to insult me, then you should leave the words untyped. I don't know how they do it in Australia, but antagonizing people is a bad idea in most other countries. If you're just insulting me for the sake of insulting me, and telling me i'm going to be a failure, then you ought to shut the hell up. I don't wanna hear it, and I'm sure that no one else is eager to hear all about it. So, leave me alone. Stop screwing with my head and stop trying to make me feel like a worthless failure.

If telling the truth antagonises you, Joeker, then perhaps you shouldn't be talking to me. I'll make this point - do you have any friends that have lasted more than 20 years? Do you have any that have lasted more than 10 years? THAT is long term.

I'll use my Wiki as an example - no one on that forum is long term. The longest there would be seven years (not including my wife of course). Then there are the IRL friends, and there I have one who has been my friend for over 20 years. He was the best man at my wedding, and I videod his for him. Heck, his oldest daughter (who was 18 months when I got married) is going to be an adult herself later this year!!

My point is that I have loads of experience in life. The good things and the bad things about social skills and how they work - and don't work.

Just think about that. And don't be rude if you wouldn't mind.

Joeker, I'm not going to stop it and I'm not going to shut up. You can call it what you like, I have a lot of stories about how so-called neurotypicals have treated me and how they are just about as crazy as it gets. There are many many ways to prove what I say about so-called typical human and human mob behavior.

The truth is the truth. Beatings, torture, and killing are part of the norms even of English-speaking society. We've just barely moved into an era where it is less acceptable and a lot of people are still spoiling for it which is why the people who tortured Iraqis aren't spending life in prison. It is why my mother allowed felonies to be committed against me and committed a few against me herself.

So-called NTs grind people down until they throw themselves under a train to end the pain and they think that they have clean consciences. After all, they didn't physically grab anyone and throw them under the train, did they? No, instead they made their special targets feel their personal death over and over again, maybe on a daily basis and maybe more than once a day. Don't like the truth, don't read it. It's no skin off my nose if you read it or not.

Remnant, I wasn't talking to you. I was talking to TLPG. Perhaps I should've made that more clear?

Telling the truth? So, mocking me and telling me I'm a failure is the truth? Since what I do has been working since I started, it's hardly a failure, so that's a lie right there. Any more smart-ass remarks?

I haven't even been alive for 20 years, and I was first diagnosed ten years ago, so you're setting yourself up for the answers you want. Quite dishonest, intellectually. How longterm, then, was your longest friendship when YOU were 18? If you're as old as I think you are, then you're at least 40. Going off that, it's been 22 years. Your longest friendship then, was at negative two years. I think six years beats that all hollow.

Your point is that you were worse then off than I am now. So if I'm doing better than you at 18 than you were doing, doesn't that generally imply that you're teaching your grandmother to suck eggs?

No offense, TLPG. It's just math and perspective.

It was a little confusing when you said, essentially, "Remnant, shut up." Also, this discussion thread is not your private conversation. That is what private messages are for.

I'll leave that to you I think. I didn't say any of that - that was your interpretation of what I said. I certainly didn't call you a failure NOW. I predicted failure in the future with your present attitude.



No dishonesty at all, because you completely missed my point. And then you try to use pure maths to prove a point when maths has absolutely nothing to do with it. Unless you want to be pedantic about the whole deal and treat the passing of time as a mathematical formula and twist it like statistics.



No, it doesn't. Besides, there is a key difference between you at 18 and me at 18. You know you are on the Spectrum. I didn't. That is a HUGE difference. For the record, when I was 18 I had no friends outside my family - and actually in retrospect that was a good thing at the time. I had aquaintances, but they were simply people who were around where I was and when I moved on I had no reason to stay in touch.

But there is one thing that I do know about when I was 18. At 18 you do NOT know everything. Really, no one ever does - but I have learnt over the years that a life is not a life without experience. At 18 you don't have that - because the only thing behind you is your childhood. Your adult life has barely started - and it is VERY different. You might know all the theories. So did I - but it didn't get me anywhere (forgetting for the moment that it took until I was 32 - when I was DXed with Aspergers - to find myself).

Life changes, Joeker. You seem to think things will remain the same for you. That's typical teenage thought patterns (Aspie and NT alike) and it's wrong. Listen to someone who's a generation ahead of you, and has been there - instead of thinking you have all the answers. No one has, but the older generations have more of them than the teens. Practical fact.

So let's talk about perspective shall we? Let's talk about experience.

You predicted that I'll be a failure, based off of the fact that you think that Aspergers is in this box, and cannot ever leave that box, and any attempts to leave the box are doomed to fail. Sorry if I'm not the stereotype you wish I was.

You cannot reasonably expect, in any way, that someone who's not even as old as the time frame you gave, would have such a longterm friendship. It is stupid to believe that it proves a point, when it can't even be accurate. I would have gotten a friend as soon as I left the womb then? I would have a friend while nursing? You weren't making an argument, you were presenting a won argument. 18 years of life and a 20 year friendship are an impossibility. You had to know that, or you never passed math.

I've had, at the age of 18, friendships which have lasted for six years. Your example was in your twenties, and that was the start of a friendship, not the current state of it. You cannot logically argue that. Am I wrong? Let anyone else give their opinion on it, then. Is it possible to have a 20 year friendship at age 18? 20-18= 2 years. 2 years before I was even born, I had to have made a friend, four years before being a toddler, seven before starting school, ten after being told my diagnosis, and fourteen before I began to make friends. Of course, after having made friends, they've lasted up to the current day, and will last into the future, so I can't see how TLPG can make the point that I haven't had any long-term friendships, because I'm in the middle of them.

You're using your vast life experience to tell me what I'm doing is wrong because I have AS and know I have AS in my formative years, when your experience comes from not even knowing about AS until far after adulthood. You're telling me that I can't do what I'm doing, because you don't believe I can, and that I'm doomed to fail because you never succeeed.

It is a huge difference, and that's EXACTLY my point. Your life experience doesn't mean squat if it isn't accurate, and the difference means that it is not the same.

When I was eight, I had no friends outside my family. When I was ten, I made one, and lost them. I looked into why things had gone wrong, and that was when I started to learn as much as I could about AS, and how to control what I did. By twelve, I had gotten much better, and I made friends. Not just one friend, or two, but several people I knew, and liked to be with, who liked to be with me. People I trusted, who I talked to, laughed with, people that were friends. We still are after all this time, and I met new friends as well. We're not perfect, but we're close.

I found myself when I was diagnosed, too. I found myself early in my life, and with the life I've lived up until now, I have to say that I certainly have managed well. I went mainstream, and fulfilled my education, and earned my Dogwood from my high school on my own efforts and merit. I have publicly performed, in a coffee-house, and been given a standing ovation. I've hiked up a mountain, twice. I've gained control over my rocking and stimming, to the point where it's me who's in control. I've helped deck a dock. I've earned a pleasure craft operator card, and use it every summer. I've gotten FoodSafe certification. If I have a goal, I work towards it, and earn what I desire.

I just can't see how that's all been wrong, that my accomplishments are worthless because I didn't do them the way you think they should have been done, by being open and vocal about having AS.

What I achieve is what I make with my own hands, my own thoughts, my own will. AS didn't choose to do those things; I did.

In other words - I live a lie? HOW DARE YOU!! My life experience is perfectly accurate!

My point about 20 years is that you can not claim a single friendship of the length that I can. You tried to use that to prove I didn't know what I was talking about when it came to making a long term friend, when in fact I am in a much better position to talk about long term friendships that last. When compared to that - your six years is pitifully short.

And you are trying to talk down my experience when you've been an adult (legally) for how long? You think you know about adult life when you've been one for less than 12 months?? Come on! Anyone will tell you that living off pure theory (as you would have to right now because of your LACK of experience) is a mugs game. If you don't want to take my warnings seriously that's your problem - but don't come grovelling back to me when you realise I was right all along. Note that I am also speaking from what I know of the experience of other Aspies - not just me.

Your accomplishments so far are fine - for you. If they give you confidence and self esteem, that's fine. No problem. You just haven't been hit with the prejudice yet. You will. It's inevitable. It happens to every Aspie - especially as an adult. I just wonder how you'll handle it when the time comes. Unless of course you shut yourself off from the world - and at this point I can't see you doing that. And I have to say that's a good thing, because as you are ignoring my warnings calling them "not accurate" it would seem the only way to teach you that I'm right is to experience it for yourself. Your only saviour is for you to find your niche in work and keep it for the whole of your working life. That is hard for even NT's to achieve let alone us Aspies.



This isn't about stereotype - this is about medical and practical fact. Aspergers IS a box by definition, and living outside it is dangerous to one's mental health because you aren't being yourself. You're being someone else. And I know one celebrity that this killed (and he wasn't even an Aspie). Peter Sellers. He never found himself because he was too busy playing characters - and not just on radio and the movies either. You NEVER got the real person in public - except on the odd occasion when he let his guard down.

I'm through talking to you. If you won't listen to me (note - listen, not agree) then what's the point? Along with these unwarranted cheap shots at my life and my position of a number of issues. Isn't that rather opinionated for a self confessed centrist?

This has gone way OT, but still:

I strongly doubt that the ability to produce plenty of verbal garbage, and to build walls between oneself and the world from piles of said garbage, is exclusive to NTs. If I don't check myself, this is exactly what I am likely to end up doing, and I have to make extra efforts to speak less so that I can actually communicate.

One could imagine what may happen in the case of someone who is even MORE prone to monologic conversation than I am.

Other than that, when I hear the expression "interact like NTs", I want to ask: interact like WHICH NT (if there is a species called NT in the first place)? For instance, when I imagine the several people I've known closely during these recent years, and have a "slideshow" of them running in my head, it becomes obvious that each has their own distinct style of interaction. If I ever set out to imitate their social behavior, I would not know whom to choose as a model, because they are so different. And, for that matter, none of them except one enjoy small talk that much - two are introverts, one is an oddish, highly educated hyperthymic extrovert who prefers to ramble about God and philosophy. None are autistic.

The same goes for people I have seen at high school or university, really, only this is easiest to observe in those whom one knows better.

That's a good post, IY! A great example of different experience - and indeed different people (on both sides - Aspie and NT). That's why I make it my business to learn from others over the years. I just wish others would take the same attitude. The knowledge gained certainly can't hurt!

In other words, your life experience is not matching mine. They are completely different. We aren't even living in the same COUNTRY. Using your vast life experience to judge something that you did not experience, that you admit is different, is the same as a rocket scientist using their vast knowledge of rocket propulsion to try to fix a car engine. Completely different from what they know, and the experience they have is not the same experience as someone else.

Of course I can't; I'm not even old enough to have been alive for that entire period of time. You don't know simple math is the problem. You seem to have trouble subtracting more than the number. Didn't you learn negative sums? You can't argue that I don't have a friendship as long-lasting as your if my life isn't as long. Like arguing that a shorter ruler is not good enough because yours is longer. I still measure, but I'm not measuring the same length of board that you are. Six years is pitifully short compared to twenty, but when the important mark is at having made a friendship, the fact that you didn't even have any at my age would generally imply that I'm doing better than you did at that age, no? Move six years along from having made a friend, and talk to me about then if you think it's useful, but stop playing a better-than-you over the amount of time you've been living over my time alive.

Six years isn't the end of the friendships, either. It's the current time that they are at. I fully expect that we'll be spending a lot more years as friends. Or will my friendships end because you say so?

I'm trying to talk down your experience at the point I'm at, because when you were 18, you had no 20-year friendship. All you had were "acquaintances." Now, if you have wisdom to share from six years into being friends, go right ahead and tell me all about it. If you're just predicting I'm going to be a failure, I don't have to listen to that rot.

I can handle prejudice. I can deal with being thought of as lesser. I'll just have the last laugh when they're proven wrong. I'm not scared of the workplace, either. If a job requires doing more than a routine, I'll do it. It's just another challenge to face down and beat.

Believe what you want, but I for one am not going to spend my life in a box, doing only whatever falls into that box, and living within the walls of my own inabilities. I am breaking that box, and I am happy for it. I'm real, but I'm not letting myself be limited and disabled.

You were through talking to me before, but it still didn't stop you from creating articles on me, mocking me, insulting me, talking about me. If you really are through with me, then leave me alone. I'll settle for no apology if you just leave me alone. But knowing you, that isn't likely to happen.

Noble, courageous.

I'm impressed at your discussion Joeker. Especially so that you're 20yrs old. Excellent.