State persecution in UK

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This should really be on another thread, but Asperger Syndrome is a developmental disorder. I think of a medical condition as being an illness. Even a disorder could be seen as "compared with the typical" which makes us just different.

From an objective observer's point of view - and I have AS, so I'm not totally objective, but trying to be - is it possible that you're drawing connections between lots of unpleasant events and, because you're pushing that angle with law enforcement and so on, it's actually being interpreted by non-autistic police as counter-harassment against the folk harassing you?

One thing I have learned over the years is that sometimes it seems like everything is about targeting you but in actuality, the non-autistic people aren't seeing it from the same angle. I suspect the police see you as a problem customer, instead of being able to understand you feel threatened by this behaviour.

I don't know who is right and who is wrong. I do know there are a lot of lowlifes who take pleasure in abusing folk with particular disabilities, and I also know that there are people so bored with their own lives they have to go cause chaos in other people's. That said, you can make your own case worse by pushing too hard.

I'll also say that it seems unlikely to me that this is an attack by the UK "state". This current government is the one who pushed for the passing of the Autism Act - because of that, local authorities are being kicked in the teeth (and high time too) if they don't handle our needs in a more productive manner. I have a LOT of issues with the loopholes and oversights autistic people deal with thanks to general ignorance and thoughtlessness in legislation and regulation, but I am pretty sure that most of those aren't intentional. This current government stole my job and my bus service from me through the public service cuts and I won't ever forgive them for the disruption they've caused, but I don't feel as though they've committed a personal "state attack" on me because I'm autistic. It's just another one of those things that has an impact on many people and that impact just happens to be heavier for me because of my AS.

There are nothing like the resources available to speculatively stalk and harass them all though...it would never happen...and it wouldn't be very effective anyway...

That makes a lot of sense actually.



Don't place too much faith in the Autism Act or the current government. The Act was almost certainly a cynically calculated ploy aimed at giving the tories a more compassionate image and winning the next general election. This current government is already doing terrible things to all disabled and disadvantaged people, and intenting far worse...but, en masse, not individually.

I can't see anything in my original post which could possibly point to "debt collectors"' and I find the suggestion insulting. In any case, if I had any awareness of why this is happening I'd be able to resolve it.
Some people seem to be under the misapprehension that I am male. I am actually a mother of grown-up children, who have themselves suffered all this violence and its consequences all of their lives. I would gladly have faced any punishment that anyone thought was due to me rather than have them suffer this. And does anyone think that babies and children deserve to be treated like this unless they can say "why"?

Last edited by pianorak on 11 Sep 2011, 3:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Perhaps I should clarify that much of what has happened has been so interdependent as well as involving the authorities, that it HAD to be organised, and it had to be organised by them. As for the reason, people are accountable for their own actions. If you want to know the reason for these events you must ask those who are responsible for them. I am happy to account for my actions. I appreciate that I haven't been able to go into a lot of the details on this forum, but I think people might have just a little bit of compassion and be less ready to blame.

...ah no, that comment brought me up sharply too...it was as if he were trying to suggest that unless you could provide a reason why this were happening, you should sit quietly with your hands in your lap without bothering anyone by trying to find out if somebody, somewhere could think of a solution anyway...

Now I know more about you, I am guessing social services have been heavily involved? If so, you are far from the only one...

The bad news is that I have no idea of how the ethos behind this works or much about what triggers it, much less how to fight it...but I have known that this can, and does, happen for a very long time.

...and yes it does tend to target anyone who doesn't conform to certain clearly defined norms.

Last edited by Zeraeph on 12 Sep 2011, 5:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

No. Social services took absolutely no interest in my children's plight, even when we were close to starvation.

I think it is very dangerous to advise an Aspie to speculate about actions of others. Our inclination is to try to understand NTs, especially when they are angry or threatening. Consequently, we allow words to be put into our mouths and that way easily 'incriminate' ourselves, or others, wrongly. There are many Aspies in prison who shouldn't be, probably because they've 'racked their brains' to come up with explanations, and the police have taken that as a confession. There have also been many cases of so-called 'false memory syndrome' , in which a parent is falsely accused of sexual abuse, but I believe was actually an undiagnosed Asperger female being brainwashed, or persuaded, by psychiatrists that this had happened when it had not.

Well, that accidentally clears something up. It couldn't possibly be state persecution of any kind, because where there are children the social services would be almost the first thing to be deployed, and they were not, to the extent that you have honestly never realised that "plights" are pretty much the last thing UK social services take any interest in. If they target you it is to impose some form of control, and at least the implied threat of taking your children away - not to help. If you missed out on that, no-one was ever actively on your case.

All that is left is the passive factor, whereby all aspects of the system are designed in such a way that anyone who does not conform to certain norms falls through the cracks, unless they are wealthy and powerful.

It's not so much a conscious persecution as part of the fabric of the culture itself expressed through regulation - not unique to the UK...it's part of the human condition to form group identities on that basis, but the inflexibility of both the accepted norm and the system is distinctive...as is the cutural imperative to conformity. The "Great British eccentric" may be alive and well, but upon closer inspection can always be found to be living on generous private means pretty much outside the system.

False memory syndrome is a very nasty phenomenon (not least in how near to impossible it can be to distinguish from a genuine victim of abuse - there are plenty of cases where, literally, no-one will ever know for sure, and perhaps everybody really needs to). But I would have thought, with our literal minds, an Aspie would be less susceptible than the norm, not more so?

But we are certainly vulnerable to dangerous levels of misinterpretation and miscommunication every time our lives touch the system in any way.

Just because people have a fear of what they don't understand, doesn't mean that governments are intending to supress us, especially as the Nts afraid of 'Aspies' thread only ever talks about a series of singular occasions. Making the jump from many single encounters to government conspiracy with no bridge in between is illogical.

Last edited by Gedrene on 13 Sep 2011, 4:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Your top argument is circular, and based on the presumption that I have given the authorities reason to do this. The alternative explanation, which we know to be the case, is that the destitution we suffered was caused firstly by being denied the right to take my husband to court for provision, and secondly being refused welfare. Social services did not then get involved because they would have had to confront the wrongs of the Benefits Agency. The latter are legally obliged to provide for those who are destitute especially children, and social services are legally obliged to ensure that children are not so abused and neglected.
Also, it doesn't seem to occur to you that the state might use the suffering of one's children as a more effective way to coerce someone. This is a technique well known to torturers around the world.
The logical conclusion of what you're saying is that I am vindicated by the fact that social services didn't intervene on behalf of my kids. But if it wasn't me, who was it that caused their injury?

The point about 'false memory' is that doctors and spychiatrists frequently give abuse as a wrong diagnosis instead of Asperger Syndrome, I believe because females show AS differently. I've seen many such cases on these pages and other writings by AS women. Yes, we have literal minds, and that's why I've had no difficulty in strongly rebutting any such suggestions made to me. But when that has happened it's been covertly, whereas doctors and psychologists have only hinted. And I know that they interpret what we say, so if I were to say eg "I think they might be thinking such-and-such" they'd be sure to assume it was my idea. We Aspies have to be so careful about this communication difference.

I am going to jump about a bit here, to answer one point at a time.

You misunderstand, I am not arguing with you, I am just telling you how a system that is not supposed to exist actually works. As long as there are children social services are the front line in any state negativity towards individuals in the UK. At this point in time that is pretty much the only purpose, outside of fulfilling the dysfunctional needs of individual social workers child services seem to serve day to day at this point in time.

A *real* reason is totally unnecessary, it is just too easy to make one up and make it stick.



But not used by the British...I am assuming, largely because it carries a heavy risk of media attention that "social services intervention" does not, and also, I suspect, because those who operate the British system tend to affect a state of denial by telling themselves they are "not doing any harm" easier to support if they are just sending in social workers" to protect the children they, to all intents and purposes, take hostage.



Now you are finally telling some of the actual story it is clear to me that you could have been the victim of what some call a culture of conspiracy, wherein there is an established pattern of individuals and agencies covering for each other, not as part of any concerted conspiracy against any individual, but as an established and reciprocal part of their collective culture.

It is where you almost inevitably land if you fall between the stools I am afraid. Scratch the surface and Britain is a great deal more brutal to the weakest and most vulnerable than it pretends to be.



I wish I could say that you were thus vindicated, but unfortunately everything I hear suggests the integrity of Social Services has decayed to the point where their intervention or non-intervention means has no relevance to the vindication, or otherwise of the parent in question.



I have honestly never seen any evidence to suggest that myself, certainly no more than in the general population.



That's absolutely true, but not particularly in terms of false memory sydrome.

I was using "argument" in the sense of your expressed opinion. How do you know "how a system that is not supposed to exist actually works"? I can only tell you what has actually happened to us, and it doesn't fit with your theoretical statements.



Yes, by the British. I'm British and living in Britain and it's being done to me. You have to be prepared to change your assumptions when you get new information. The media are not free to publicise UK Government torture.



You contradict yourself because firstly you say the SS don't intervene to help but to control, and then that they haven't felt the need to control me. I agree. No-one has any complaint against me.



Perhaps you haven't had your attention drawn to enough variety of topics.




Maybe not particularly but the consequences are worse. The false allegation of a crime is worse than the crime itself, especially if it's too late to defend oneself.

One absolute last post for you, because it is very important.

My statements are *not* theoretical, that is how the system works and has worked for decades, there is absolutely no reason why they would suddenly change it especially for you. Nobody is that important.



Neither am I but that doesn't mean that I do not know exactly what really goes on, and what can happen and I am afraid what is happening to you does not fit any known pattern.



I did not contradict myself at all. I said that because of the degree to which it is abused as a weapon of control (amongst other things) social services intervention, or it's absence, means little or nothing in terms of vindicating anyone. To say more I would need to know why you felt the need for vindication.



Perhaps not, but I have had my attention drawn to an awful lot of related topics over the years, it would be hard to identify any I had missed.



It certainly is not when you are talking about the cold blooded abuse of a child. Children don't just "get over it" or "grow out of it" you know, and believe me, I have seen this one from both sides, even to excess.

Now, I approached your posts with a very open mind, because I am one of the few people who does know what is possible in the UK, and isn't in denial about it. But not only can you not provide any reason why you would be persecuted by the state, or anything resembling a description of what has actually happened, but you are also trying to *demand* that I believe you are being persecuted in a totally different way to anyone else who has ever been persecuted in the UK.

There comes a point when even the most open of minds closes.

I am also very worried by the combination of the words "vindication" and "false allegations" in the context of children, and I am afraid that, in combination with your hostile attitude has cost you my sympathy too.

If you are the innocent victim of something (and you may be) while it is certainly not persecution by the British State, I do sincerely hope you find a way to resolve it, but I can assure you, you will never be able to do that without facing the reality of what is happening.

Now this really *IS* my last post here. 'bye all...

I am Pianorak's son and I would like to respond to some of the things you have said. Whether you reply is of course entirely up to you.

I don't understand how you can, on the one hand, admit that there are things the public don't know about in the UK, and on the other hand it doesn't occur to you that there might be things the state doesn't tell you. How important do you think you are that you believe they would tell you everything? Or are you right at the top of this "system"?



If you were the victim of child abuse, as indeed you claim elsewhere, then I am very sorry for you. But you are going to have to get over it, as much for your own sake as everyone else's. Taking it out on others by working for the state in a position where you are at least aware of torture, whilst deluding yourself that it is justified because there is supposedly always a reason is not going to resolve anything, even for you. It is just a classic case of the abused becoming the abuser. Wouldn't it be better to do something positive with your life?



To suggest that the victim of crime should have to give an explanation for the motive is absurd. Would you ask someone who was attacked walking down the street why they were attacked? If they said they didn't know, would you say they can't have really been attacked? Or that they must be mistaken about the identity of the attacker? Maybe some people high up in the state were abused as children and feel the need to take it out on others?



The persecution has included false alibis given by the police, denial of state welfare and state healthcare (everyone is entitled to this in the UK), and numerous other illegal activities by government agencies and state regulated companies. If it walks like a pig, grunts like a pig, and smells like a pig, it is a pig.

Maybe you would like to name this "system" that you refer to so that we can know what we are dealing with, and so that other people can start to make an informed decision about whether they want to take part in, and fund, this phoney democracy.

I do not regret that time, effort, and honesty I put into this thread.

There was a small chance the OP was a real person, living a Kafkaesque nightmare, and, if so, I could have pointed them towards people who might be able to help.

There was also a small chance that the OP was a real person suffering extremely vivid paranoid delusions, in which case, there was a tiny chance that confronting them with the reality of where their delusions did not fit reality might open a door a let them begin to escape that.

But now it has descended to sockpuppetry and abuse it seems more likely this was just an attention seeking exercise all along, and I no longer intend to engage with it..