Page 7 of 12 [ 191 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 ... 12  Next

WildColonialBoy
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker

User avatar

Joined: 6 Jun 2011
Age: 44
Gender: Male
Posts: 70

24 Aug 2011, 11:05 am

Zeraeph wrote:
WildColonialBoy wrote:
Zeraeph wrote:
WildColonialBoy wrote:

Can't pull their weight- one thing
Won't pull their weight- another


So who makes that call?

Atos origin?
A polite, smiling young Doctor at a Polish railway station?
Other?

That *IS* the reality of the ideology you are expounding, when you take away the window dressing.


Hardly?


It even has a name, Social Darwinism...and however sincere you belief, it's not the best ideology to throw over a young woman who has already experienced society's capacity to expose the incompatible to the elements and tell themselves it was "all for the best", to the point of trauma.


When did I say that?



Zeraeph
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 9 Aug 2009
Gender: Female
Posts: 592

24 Aug 2011, 11:28 am

WildColonialBoy wrote:

When did I say that?


When you sat and explained your position om social darwinism to sweetleaf:
WildColonialBoy wrote:
Thanks for your comment and the chance to elaborate on my previous observations! I acn see that, taken out of context, my words might give offence; however that is not my intention. My core values and creed is that I will do anything to help somebody that I consider a mate (Australian interpretation of word), family, kindred spirit or somebody in need of my protection or friendship. That is a fundimental value of most Aussie blokes (and most good blokes world wide!)

My concern is that I will not be able extend the same framework of mateship to people who do not pull their weight despite the fact that they may be on the spectrum. I wish I was able to stand shoulder to shoulder with all but mates and family have to come first.

Do you see what I mean? I have worked (for the UN) in areas where "ethnic cleansing" has occured (Rwanda, Bosnia and Afghanistan) and still regard human life as the most precious commodity in the entire universe but current circumstances dictate that we must form mutual support groups and must give priority to people we respect and trust.

Do you understand what I mean? In order for Aspies to survive and prosper we must band together and look out for each other and pull our weight. Does this make sense?

I know you have had a a fairly hard life for someone so young but you must recognise the necessity to circle the wagons and look out for our own?

I am proud to say that I have stood up to concentration camp guards whilst unarmed, and would happily do so again!


Just after she said this:

sweetleaf wrote:
Right then and what do we do with these dead wood individuals........send them to a concentration camp, you can't just get rid of people because you veiw them as dead wood that is not how it works.


and this:

sweetleaf wrote:
Well when I was in school, it was pretty obvious to me that I was being bullied and picked on by most of the other students and no one was going to do anything about it......I feel like maybe their theory was I would either eventually conform to whatever it was they wanted or succeed at suicide...I attempted and failed there were various reasons though it was not just being treated like crap so those as*holes can't take all the credit. And the worst part is it seems like our society is built on that kind of thing......and it irritates me a bit.


Not exactly a fortunate choice of associations, I am sure you will agree.?



Gedrene
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 9 Jul 2011
Age: 33
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,725

24 Aug 2011, 12:58 pm

Zeraeph wrote:
WildColonialBoy wrote:
Zeraeph wrote:
WildColonialBoy wrote:

Can't pull their weight- one thing
Won't pull their weight- another


So who makes that call?

Atos origin?
A polite, smiling young Doctor at a Polish railway station?
Other?

That *IS* the reality of the ideology you are expounding, when you take away the window dressing.


Hardly?


It even has a name, Social Darwinism...and however sincere you belief, it's not the best ideology to throw over a young woman who has already experienced society's capacity to expose the incompatible to the elements and tell themselves it was "all for the best", to the point of trauma.


I think telling the difference between can't and wont is actually anything but social darwinism because telling the difference points out that you actually believe people who can't help their situation shouldn't be blamed for it whilst those who can should be helped.



Gedrene
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 9 Jul 2011
Age: 33
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,725

24 Aug 2011, 1:02 pm

Zeraeph wrote:
WildColonialBoy wrote:

When did I say that?


When you sat and explained your position om social darwinism to sweetleaf:
WildColonialBoy wrote:
Thanks for your comment and the chance to elaborate on my previous observations! I acn see that, taken out of context, my words might give offence; however that is not my intention. My core values and creed is that I will do anything to help somebody that I consider a mate (Australian interpretation of word), family, kindred spirit or somebody in need of my protection or friendship. That is a fundimental value of most Aussie blokes (and most good blokes world wide!)

My concern is that I will not be able extend the same framework of mateship to people who do not pull their weight despite the fact that they may be on the spectrum. I wish I was able to stand shoulder to shoulder with all but mates and family have to come first.

Do you see what I mean? I have worked (for the UN) in areas where "ethnic cleansing" has occured (Rwanda, Bosnia and Afghanistan) and still regard human life as the most precious commodity in the entire universe but current circumstances dictate that we must form mutual support groups and must give priority to people we respect and trust.

Do you understand what I mean? In order for Aspies to survive and prosper we must band together and look out for each other and pull our weight. Does this make sense?

I know you have had a a fairly hard life for someone so young but you must recognise the necessity to circle the wagons and look out for our own?

I am proud to say that I have stood up to concentration camp guards whilst unarmed, and would happily do so again!


Just after she said this:

sweetleaf wrote:
Right then and what do we do with these dead wood individuals........send them to a concentration camp, you can't just get rid of people because you veiw them as dead wood that is not how it works.


and this:

sweetleaf wrote:
Well when I was in school, it was pretty obvious to me that I was being bullied and picked on by most of the other students and no one was going to do anything about it......I feel like maybe their theory was I would either eventually conform to whatever it was they wanted or succeed at suicide...I attempted and failed there were various reasons though it was not just being treated like crap so those as*holes can't take all the credit. And the worst part is it seems like our society is built on that kind of thing......and it irritates me a bit.


Not exactly a fortunate choice of associations, I am sure you will agree.?


What exactly are you trying to prove Zeraeph? No, seriously I don't actually know. In any case it isn't social darwinism to want to do something that you can do. Also since he defined that being unable to pull your weight is something different then that is fine.



Zeraeph
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 9 Aug 2009
Gender: Female
Posts: 592

24 Aug 2011, 2:28 pm

Gedrene wrote:

I think telling the difference between can't and wont is actually anything but social darwinism because telling the difference points out that you actually believe people who can't help their situation shouldn't be blamed for it whilst those who can should be helped.


No...rewind further to the Social Darwinism that last bit was just a final touch...

Mind you, Social Darwinisn "does" often *express* itself through the choice of standards through which the distinction between "can't" and "won't" is made...



Zeraeph
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 9 Aug 2009
Gender: Female
Posts: 592

24 Aug 2011, 2:34 pm

Gedrene wrote:

What exactly are you trying to prove Zeraeph? No, seriously I don't actually know. In any case it isn't social darwinism to want to do something that you can do. Also since he defined that being unable to pull your weight is something different then that is fine.


It's ok, you are just missing the point of what he was saying...not your fault it happens to be an area I am very familiar with, and it just wasn't a contender for an Olympic Medal in tact to be rubbing Sweetleaf's nose in it at that point...

...and, incidentally, a belief system such as he expressed really *DOES* leave, for example *me* no tolerable or sustainable options that involve survival, so you can hardly expect me to be a fan. That would just be weird. :P



Jeffrey228
Snowy Owl
Snowy Owl

User avatar

Joined: 23 Apr 2011
Gender: Male
Posts: 152

24 Aug 2011, 2:45 pm

Zeraeph, the thing is right now is that Washington State and California don't have the money to take the support of Autism, and instead place it in a section that the person is more dangerous to that of Mental Retardation and Down's syndrome, the disorders that lead to Racial profiling, a sign they think Autism Supremacy is on the rise, something that might conflict with other incendents of Racial Conflict, reason why the West Coast has a lack of resources and money to support Autism.



Zeraeph
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 9 Aug 2009
Gender: Female
Posts: 592

24 Aug 2011, 2:52 pm

Jeffrey228 wrote:
Zeraeph, the thing is right now is that Washington State and California don't have the money to take the support of Autism, and instead place it in a section that the person is more dangerous to that of Mental Retardation and Down's syndrome, the disorders that lead to Racial profiling, a sign they think Autism Supremacy is on the rise, something that might conflict with other incendents of Racial Conflict, reason why the West Coast has a lack of resources and money to support Autism.


I do see exactly what you mean and it is a serious warning sign (as well as being pretty much "game over" for the real people who's lives are trapped in it :( )

I might not use such extreme of definitive language, but I would probably be talking about pretty much the same thing.



Jeffrey228
Snowy Owl
Snowy Owl

User avatar

Joined: 23 Apr 2011
Gender: Male
Posts: 152

24 Aug 2011, 3:06 pm

Zeraeph wrote:
Jeffrey228 wrote:
Zeraeph, the thing is right now is that Washington State and California don't have the money to take the support of Autism, and instead place it in a section that the person is more dangerous to that of Mental Retardation and Down's syndrome, the disorders that lead to Racial profiling, a sign they think Autism Supremacy is on the rise, something that might conflict with other incendents of Racial Conflict, reason why the West Coast has a lack of resources and money to support Autism.


I do see exactly what you mean and it is a serious warning sign (as well as being pretty much "game over" for the real people who's lives are trapped in it :( )

I might not use such extreme of definitive language, but I would probably be talking about pretty much the same thing.


Well also this entire problem is also starting to talk a toll when trying to find a girlfriend and stuff, but might limited to those age 32 or older due to the fact they have more notion of Autism but also a sudden rise of older females finding intrest in younger males, it seems like that the 18 to 30 Age level group of females are finding more love in the wrong people,

Drug users,
Heavy Drinkers,
Heavy Smokers,
Into Criminal Activity,
Listening to Music that promotes crime,
and being Street Gangs,

These things are what the most females of the 18 to 30 age group are finding more intrest in, and it is not a good theme here because quite a few of these kind of people are also not very kind to those with Autism, in a big way, and it is getting much worse.



Zeraeph
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 9 Aug 2009
Gender: Female
Posts: 592

24 Aug 2011, 3:37 pm

*chuckles*

Ah Jeffrey...let me share a female secret and assure you that there is *NOTHING* new about young women being attracted to "bad news".

The only thing that is *new* is older women feeling free to relate to younger men, AND being in good enough shape to attract them, of course...

I am just a little too old for that mentality, but I see it happening...and I know intellectually that it is "all good" I just cannot relate to it.



Gedrene
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 9 Jul 2011
Age: 33
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,725

24 Aug 2011, 3:59 pm

Jeffrey228 wrote:
Drug users,
Heavy Drinkers,
Heavy Smokers,
Into Criminal Activity,
Listening to Music that promotes crime,
and being Street Gangs,

These things are what the most females of the 18 to 30 age group are finding more intrest in, and it is not a good theme here because quite a few of these kind of people are also not very kind to those with Autism, in a big way, and it is getting much worse.


I think you may be overstating your case Jeffrey, and I mean as in exaggerating. Funnily enough when I look at ground level from every single social group I still see women who care about guys with money, a stable job, being relatable and not acting like twats. High-profile cases I believe are drawing you away from the norm. I don't think the number of women interested in men like that is raising out of proportion with the amount of men who actually do those sorts of things. Your warnings seem farfetched given that I doubt women get aroused by heavy smokers and I doubt heavy smoking can be correlated with abuse of autistics.



AlanTuring
Deinonychus
Deinonychus

User avatar

Joined: 3 Jul 2011
Age: 68
Gender: Male
Posts: 302
Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota, USA

24 Aug 2011, 5:15 pm

Zeraeph wrote:
AlanTuring wrote:
I personally can't go along with the Facebook suggestion - I simply can't participate in regular social media sites - it is a real aversion for me.


You can always set up a profile *JUST* for that one forum...and block all pms etc...

The reason why I say facebook is because APART from being able to include a vast quantity of real politicians globally, and, currently, in combination with twitter being *THE* single most effective place to send any concept "viral" at present, the ownership and moderation is, to all intents and purposes, neutral and unbiased.

Which is vital, not only in terms of censorship issues, but also in terms of who feels free to participate.


I have something of an addictive personality - it can be very difficult for me to regulate my interaction with a forum or social networking site. I am currently on this site and one other, and that is more than is actually good for me.

Facebook is simply too large, and I have a real aversion to Facebook's use of the term 'friend'.

Friendship means a lot to me, and I despise the way that Facebook has utterly trivialized the term.

Believe it or not, but those are more than sufficient to ensure that I'll never be on Facebook, etc.


_________________
Diagnosed: OCD, Generalized Anxiety Disorder, Dysthemia
Undiagnosed: AS (Aspie: 176/200, NT: 37/200)
High functioning, software engineer, algorithms, cats, books


Marcia
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Age: 56
Gender: Female
Posts: 2,148

24 Aug 2011, 6:54 pm

Zeraeph wrote:


To make it more interesting, it has been persuasively argued that the Irish Religious also laid the foundation of *BRITISH* social services in the late 19th, early 20th centuries.



Interesting. What are your sources for this?



Inventor
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Feb 2007
Gender: Male
Posts: 6,014
Location: New Orleans

24 Aug 2011, 7:46 pm

I thought I was real, but then I have missed a few things. Social Darwinism is the community standard. One, they do not like not understanding, it makes them restless, and two, they lack the ability to understand anything different. It comes down to what they can attack, and what they flee from.

One is often projected on two, add obvious guilt, and they of course see any organized movement as a threat. Most are.

All resources are overused, have been for a while, and the decline of resources shows now over twenty years. Farms vanish beneath roads, shopping malls, and suburbs, a modern habitat with always less social connection, sense of place, belonging, and filled with strangers from all over the world.

In the pecking order of life they all seek someone they can peck.

What works with them is the same pandering of politics, and the same marketing of business. These are the same things that autistics are well known for ignoring, or having an inability at, or caring, after a life of living with poop slinging apes.

Most of us have a past that leads to avoiding people in general. Some have family, a few mates from the pit of gloom dust mine we connect with, I do business on the web, they think they are dealing with a real person. Then they want to talk on the phone and I say I do not have one. I cannot do phones. Also one of the six not on Facebook.

As for who is who in autism, coming here I learned of lacks, that seemed made up, I never had one of those. I think I did fine without it, but I am a recluse. I do not think about it because I have areas of high function, to the point of advantage, but I do have some total lacks that common ten year olds have mastered.

Over a dozen criteria, we all score unevenly, and under stress, we go with our strong suit, which can get more unlike the world in general.

Some may be better spoken, but I admire ci's ability to engage Politics, Media, Social Services, and show them better ways that they then support because they were engaged in the process. He empowers them, in a way like teaching them to order food in Chinese, then lets them order lunch.

We are different, then different under changing conditions, and so is everyone else. Again we are a bit blind in seeing the changes they go through, as we have various reactions to stress. I read that Asians react to unexpected bad news by laughter. perhaps hoping it was humorus, which varies in cultures, and we have a lot of culturally inappropiate responses.

You can only have four aspies in a room, for that is the number of corners. All of the good work I have seen was solo. We could form a street gang, but never agree on what street.

The same problem arises in autism science, some here are good at some part, but it is a polite talking past each other, not a conversation. What seems a narrow focus when joined becomes four narrow views about what most would consider one subject. We do not do concensus views. For that we would have to hire an NT. I have seen it at universities, one Department, one subject, and all the staff has a different view. They make it work, for they are teaching a range of thinking.

Of those willing to engage the world, perhaps one in a thousand, so we cannot engage them in conflict. We also do not have a unified message.

We do score some wins. It is the solo warrior method, one at a time we do impact the culture. The first wave were writers, Temple Grandin, Donna Williams, John Robison. Alex has moved on to video and media in general. It has been one person at a time public relations. Wired articles about Geek Syndrome have lead to books, public education continues.

We also have Psychology trying to come up with one story from the outside, we are not all anything. Neanderthal Genes are not in Africa, Autism is. The same Genome blamed for autism also produces cancer, heart disease, Alzheimer's, which is found in a lesser degree in Africans. Those are a bit more serious than being an aspie.

We have a major charity Autism Speaks, that has spent a lot of money to disprove everything anyone ever thought about autism. Side effects are a study of the Neanderthal Genome like no University could afford, a worldwide genetic data base, which is all useful stuff, and has nothing to do with autism. We were only the reason, not in the result.

We keep Grad students employed, produce a lot of Doctorates, which is a good thing.

The result will be people being treated for cancer and heart disease years before they develop it. For us it is too late, but perhaps the future will see robust species, limiting factors removed in the womb. Recent discoveries were mothers to be should not drink, smoke crack, so progress is happening. Perhaps it its the hairspray? When We Were Eight Cells, anything could be a problem.

The other side of our study is solid evidence that Neurotypical equals American functional educational levels. Since WWII, Americans have scored at half way through the Eighth Grade, with a C-. Many graduated highschool. They are also C- Neurotypicals.

A simple view of who they elect to lead proves this. About 4/5 of the people have an IQ of 100 or less.

The problems of the high functioning autistics do not stand out as being the worst thing going on. Those who teach, research, develop technology, have geek social problems. Some are Nerds.

A look at the real world, self help is the way to go, and helping the majority who are in worse shape than us.



Sweetleaf
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 Jan 2011
Age: 35
Gender: Female
Posts: 34,991
Location: Somewhere in Colorado

24 Aug 2011, 10:14 pm

WildColonialBoy wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
WildColonialBoy wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
WildColonialBoy wrote:
The key question that will be asked is "does this program deliver value for money for the taxpayer?" In a lot of jursistictions, asking this question, is a legislative requirement for public servants authorising expenditure of public money.

Those programs that demonstrate positive net cash flows to the Government eg Welfare savings or an expansion of the tax base will be deemed viable.

Those that do not deliver positive cash flows will be axed.

Therefore, in the near future, It will be vitally important to have one's ducks in a row and be able to demonstrate clearly and quantifiably that programs are cash positive to stand any chance of getting a green light.

Therefore, smart organisations and individuals are well advised to get rid of the "dead wood", be it ideology, programs and ,as much as I hate to say it, individuals as soon as possible.

To quote Billy Bragg, "The third world is just around the corner".


Right then and what do we do with these dead wood individuals........send them to a concentration camp, you can't just get rid of people because you veiw them as dead wood that is not how it works.


Thanks for your comment and the chance to elaborate on my previous observations! I acn see that, taken out of context, my words might give offence; however that is not my intention. My core values and creed is that I will do anything to help somebody that I consider a mate (Australian interpretation of word), family, kindred spirit or somebody in need of my protection or friendship. That is a fundimental value of most Aussie blokes (and most good blokes world wide!)

My concern is that I will not be able extend the same framework of mateship to people who do not pull their weight despite the fact that they may be on the spectrum. I wish I was able to stand shoulder to shoulder with all but mates and family have to come first.

Do you see what I mean? I have worked (for the UN) in areas where "ethnic cleansing" has occured (Rwanda, Bosnia and Afghanistan) and still regard human life as the most precious commodity in the entire universe but current circumstances dictate that we must form mutual support groups and must give priority to people we respect and trust.

Do you understand what I mean? In order for Aspies to survive and prosper we must band together and look out for each other and pull our weight. Does this make sense?

I know you have had a a fairly hard life for someone so young but you must recognise the necessity to circle the wagons and look out for our own?

I am proud to say that I have stood up to concentration camp guards whilst unarmed, and would happily do so again!


Yes it makes sense, but there are people who cannot nessisarly pull their weight or whatever........so there has to be some idea of what to do with them. But yeah anyone tends to put those they care about or have some connection to first. I mean I would be more likely to risk my life to help someone I know(if it came to that.) than someone I've never even met. So yeah I get what you mean but those who have more severe problems and need more assistance or whatever have to have someone looking out for them I guess. Though extreme circumstances can interfere........that is a pretty sad fact of life.


Can't pull their weight- one thing
Won't pull their weight- another

True but there are those who simply accuse those who cannot of just refusing.



Sweetleaf
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 Jan 2011
Age: 35
Gender: Female
Posts: 34,991
Location: Somewhere in Colorado

24 Aug 2011, 10:21 pm

ci wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
ci wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
ci wrote:
The whole world is not like a school room.

Are you sure about that?...I mean it is not litterally like that, but it is not like the sort of behavior I saw there stopped existing after I graduated it is part of the real world as well.

This forum however reminds me of what I witnessed in high school. Not much part of it just an observer myself and attacked twice for minding my own businesses pacing and so on. No they tended not to like fart noises then which I learned. Schools even then some 10 years ago did not openly tolerate bullying and in fact all I had to do is tell one person and it went on official school record and the party approached.


Well when I was in school, it was pretty obvious to me that I was being bullied and picked on by most of the other students and no one was going to do anything about it......I feel like maybe their theory was I would either eventually conform to whatever it was they wanted or succeed at suicide...I attempted and failed there were various reasons though it was not just being treated like crap so those as*holes can't take all the credit. And the worst part is it seems like our society is built on that kind of thing......and it irritates me a bit.


I can see why you feel the way you do. Yet in adult life it is different. Sometimes we must learn to let go of the past because those same people are very different. Our own thoughts can hold us back and our own rejections experienced in the past are not of the current. There is a strong will in every person just needing to be tapped for a greater self potential.


Its not really that different in adult life I am now 22 and adult life is not all that different......I have let go of a lot of the past, but it is still a threatening thought that there were people who probably figured it would be easier on everyone if I had suceeded at suicide. No one came out and said it but its not like it was not obvious.

Yeah the difference is now I have a friend and some aquantinces......who are potential friends. But it does not make a lot of the past any less painful or anything.


If you hadn't have notice some people even on here would if they could drive someone to those kinds of thinking. Some just do not like people for who they are. Some people just feed off of harming others to feel better about themselves. It's how individuals personally value themselves in spite of those kinds of people existing even right in the now and still yet are strong in mind and just as equally deserving of living life. While I cannot solve depression for instance with my own mere words toward you the love of life can be much like a cup is half full or half empty. I've found that going after goals and finding success even in the small things excites me to keep me going to the point life is exciting because in my choices I make my life better and can really do what I envision to do and prove that to myself. If finding friends is important to you (it's not much to me) then you can find interest groups. I just find that however a persistent negative thinking about ones own ability to progress sets one up for failure. The view about society you have effects your own outlook I think.


Well yes of course that would effect my outlook, however I do not think I have an inaccurate outlook. I am not afraid to walk on the 'deviant' side.....I have before and I will probably have to again if I want to survive. I thought I would give throwing that desire away and just trying to conform enough to suceed in society and still have time for things I enjoy.....but I know full well that for me to conform to this society would mean enjoying life even less. I have not exactly decided my plan yet but it will not include trying to fit into society.