Why "Neurodiversity" is wrong

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Jono
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13 Feb 2015, 8:32 am

emax10000 wrote:

Sweetleaf wrote:

emax10000 wrote:

BuyerBeware wrote:

I don't want the world to change to accommodate me in the absence of any attempt on my part to adapt.

I'd just like it to meet me halfway.

I'd like to be able to wear a set of noise-cancelling headphones to an assembly at my kids' school, or come in with my brood at the last minute and sit down on the floor in back, without being automatically tagged as a freak that must be watched.

I'd like to not be followed by security as I make my way through WalMart muttering to myself about what I need to do next in order to successfully complete the activity known as "shopping at WalMart."

I'd like to not be labelled a crackhead because I rub the end of my nose while listening/thinking...

...and I'd like to not be thankful that they thought "crackhead" before they thought "ret*d."

I'd like to be able to say, "I'm a high-functioning autistic, and I just got more than a little overwhelmed back there. I'll be OK in ten or fifteen minutes. Thanks for asking" as I'm leaning against my car smoking a cigarette with silent tears running down my face. Instead of having to jump in my car and race home, where I can cry without having the police get involved (and feel bad, once again, about the fact that my ret*d ass is still not dead yet).

I don't want a free SSDI check and a total pass.

I just want "autism" to not mean "freak who absolutely cannot cope with anything ever and is going to be the next Adam Lanza."

This pretty much sums up my opinion perfectly.

I mean, it is unfortunate that there is a new phenomenon of often self diagnosed Aspies and Autistics who interpret Non NT pride as demanding that the rest of their community walk on eggshells around them and give them a pass even when they are going out of their way to be cruel and hostile. I am sure the near unanimous consensus around here is that those of us who are severely struggling with this do NOT ever want to be lumped in with them.

That said, we will always have to walk the line between advocating for ourselves and not using it as a crutch. For those of us who are doing everything in their power to be normal, I hardly see the harm in advocating fro our rights the same way other minorities do.

We accept the fact that GLBTQs, women, ethnic minorities and others cannot simply change on a whim to fit in. Many of us who tried simply forcing ourselves to be normal and pretending nothing was fundamentally problematic found it ended in at best major challenges and complete disaster at worst.

I don't do everything in my power to be normal....but I still think advocacy is important, does that mean it does harm if I advocate for rights/accommodations for autistics because I am not doing everything in my power to fit in?

I think it is very difficult question. I am totally ok with not wanting to everything in one's power to be normal but I cannot help but feel that doing everything in your power to be normal will make it easier to advocate for our basic rights. As I noted, I feel it is a sort tightrope walk between using autism as a crutch to excuse bad, hostile behavior on one side and refusing to advocate for your rights as an autistic or aspie on the other. For me, falling to far to one side or the other is often the most fundamental challenge.

Personally, I'd much prefer it if society accepted us the way we are rather than expect us to do everything in our power to be normal.

aspiesavant
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22 Feb 2015, 12:04 pm

Jono wrote:

Personally, I'd much prefer it if society accepted us the way we are rather than expect us to do everything in our power to be normal.

What is normal anyway?

I would argue that many cognitive phenotypes considered "Autistic" today are much closer to what was considered normal in the 19th century than what's considered "normal" today.

To put it differently : in a world gone mad, it's the rare sane ones who are called insane...

Sweetleaf
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25 Feb 2015, 9:14 pm

emax10000 wrote:

But in doing everything in our power to be normal, to me that negates the point of advocating for these basic rights, if the point is to gain more respect/representation/understanding in society as we are. I certainly do not agree with using autism as an excuse for bad, hostile behavior...and I don't even do that, though meltdowns can get pretty messy but that is a little different than having an agressive personality and thinking its ok to hurt others with no regard for how it effects anyone and then saying 'oh its my autism'.

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naturalplastic
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25 Feb 2015, 9:41 pm

YippySkippy wrote:

Quote:

And you know all of this how?...are you psychic and picked up they where sent by 'security'? It is possible they where just wandering by...or maybe its part of store policy they are supposed to try and be helpful, make sure everyone's finding everything ok or they saw you and thought it looked like you might be having some trouble...so approached you because of that. I mean they say 'can I help you' to perfectly normal neurotypicals to. Were they actually rude or anything?

Look, the woman came running around a corner at me. I'm a middle-aged woman, and I've done a lot of shopping in my days. I've been asked if someone could help me a million times, and this was not like the usual. I can't explain it any better than that. Either take my word for it, or don't.

Yep. Thats what we were told to do when I was a salesclerk. If they suspect that you're a shoplifter they will send someone to ask you if you "need help". They cant be rude. But they want you to know that they are watching you.

darkphantomx1
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25 Feb 2015, 9:52 pm

I agree. Every single people on the spectrum needs to learn to adapt. The best people can learn to adapt and conform with other people, but they still hold true to their morals and values. In life, you have to be likable. That's not always easy but it's true.

ASPartOfMe
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25 Feb 2015, 11:25 pm

Adopting, compromising, learning new skills whatever phrase you prefer is the correct thing to do. Doing all those things with little or no reciprocity and recognition makes which is the situation now will make you a slave and will destroy you eventually. With great will power some can do it almost if not flawlessly for years or decades but that only makes the eventual crash worse. Of course some just do not have that much ability to do that at all.

All we ask is for is what happens in most successful human relationships of any kind at least some compromise from the other people. If other people can't handle us, leave us be instead of trying to make us like you or trying destroying us out of pure spite. Call it nuerodiversity, fairness, or just being a civilized person.

I have seen all these other groups make gains in this regard some very substantial in my lifetime. Just do not like the substantial sentiment that we unlike these others got to "give" with no "take" in return. Somewhere along the line I missed or have blacked out the part where I landed here from the "wrong planet" and deserve this.

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DSM 5: Autism Spectrum Disorder, DSM IV: Aspergers Moderate Severity

“My autism is not a superpower. It also isn’t some kind of god-forsaken, endless fountain of suffering inflicted on my family. It’s just part of who I am as a person”. - Sara Luterman

Sweetleaf
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26 Feb 2015, 12:40 am

darkphantomx1 wrote:

And how does one define 'being likeable' I try and be civil but there is no way to control whether someones going to like you or not. Also society needs to adapt as well, of course people with autism have to find ways of adapting somewhat but society cant just refuse to meet half way and expect us all to just magically gain the ability to act neurotypical while spending twice the effort.

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aspiesavant
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26 Feb 2015, 6:13 am

darkphantomx1 wrote:

I agree. Every single people on the spectrum needs to learn to adapt. The best people can learn to adapt and conform with other people, but they still hold true to their morals and values.

ASPartOfMe wrote:

Adopting, compromising, learning new skills whatever phrase you prefer is the correct thing to do.

I find that attitude very disturbing and reminiscent of the most totalitarian cults or ideologies.

Sweetleaf wrote:

darkphantomx1 wrote:

In life, you have to be likable. That's not always easy but it's true.

And how does one define 'being likeable' I try and be civil but there is no way to control whether someones going to like you or not.

Indeed. Trying to conform did not make me likable. It only made me feel empty inside.

I prefer to be my eccentric self and be truly appreciated only by other eccentrics.

Being yourself should not stop you from being successful. You just have to find other ways for people to take you seriously if you don't wish to conform to their standards.

ASPartOfMe
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26 Feb 2015, 1:59 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:

Adopting, compromising, learning new skills whatever phrase you prefer is the correct thing to do.

I find that attitude very disturbing and reminiscent of the most totalitarian cults or ideologies.

And how does one define 'being likeable' I try and be civil but there is no way to control whether someones going to like you or not.

Indeed. Trying to conform did not make me likable. It only made me feel empty inside.

I prefer to be my eccentric self and be truly appreciated only by other eccentrics.

Being yourself should not stop you from being successful. You just have to find other ways for people to take you seriously if you don't wish to conform to their standards.[/quote]

I would suggest you read the rest of my post if you think I am being totalitarian. I don't think being likable and being my Autistic self as polar opposites. And I can if possible grow and add likable skills. I think you are confusing the situation in 2015 wherby it is expected we must do all the adopting which is is wrong and self destructive, to situational adopting done by both parties in an attempt to accomplish something that would benefit both sides.

if you are compromising and feel empty inside you are doing too much of it in the wrong situations. Figuring this out is damm difficult and takes years of experience. If anybody tells you they got it all figured out they are lying.

ASPartOfMe
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26 Feb 2015, 2:07 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:

Adopting, compromising, learning new skills whatever phrase you prefer is the correct thing to do.

Apologize I messed up these quotes big time wrote:

I would suggest you read the rest of my post if you think I am being totalitarian. I don't think being likable and being my Autistic self as polar opposites. And I can if possible grow and add likable skills. I think you are confusing the situation in 2015 wherby it is expected we must do all the adopting which is is wrong and self destructive, to situational adopting done by both parties in an attempt to accomplish something that would benefit both sides.

if you are compromising and feel empty inside you are doing too much of it in the wrong situations. Figuring this out is damm difficult and takes years of experience. If anybody tells you they got it all figured out they are lying.

aspiesavant
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26 Feb 2015, 2:15 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:

I would suggest you read the rest of my post if you think I am being totalitarian. I don't think being likable and being my Autistic self as polar opposites.

Being likable shouldn't be a goal, because you have no control of whether others consider you likable.

Be true to yourself.
Be kind to others.
Act according to your conscience.

That's what really matters!

ASPartOfMe wrote:

if you are compromising and feel empty inside you are doing too much of it in the wrong situations. Figuring this out is damm difficult and takes years of experience.

I figured out when I was 17 that I could never be happy when trying to conform.

Today, I spend most of my time among other socially awkward intellectuals with whom I can have meaningful conversations on anything from the most intimate emotions to the most controversial philosophical notions.

That's far more valuable to me than anything I could ever obtain from trying to conform. In fact, I I'd tried to conform, I'd never had the chance to get to really know that kind of people.

ASPartOfMe wrote:

If anybody tells you they got it all figured out they are lying.

No disagreement here...

ASPartOfMe
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26 Feb 2015, 4:35 pm

aspiesavant wrote:

ASPartOfMe wrote:

I would suggest you read the rest of my post if you think I am being totalitarian. I don't think being likable and being my Autistic self as polar opposites.

ASPartOfMe wrote:

if you are compromising and feel empty inside you are doing too much of it in the wrong situations. Figuring this out is damm difficult and takes years of experience.

ASPartOfMe wrote:

If anybody tells you they got it all figured out they are lying.

No disagreement here...

Even with limited skills think I have been able to partially control likability in some situations by yes being kind or sometimes doing the opposite. Likability is a goal, not the goal. I have written some angry posts here recently when I felt it was needed to get the point across or that was just how I was strongly feeling at the moment.

aspiesavant
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26 Feb 2015, 6:55 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:

In my case, it's hit-and-miss. I have a tendency to polarize people.

Some people think my quirkiness is charming. Others think it's annoying. A small minority loves it

ASPartOfMe
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26 Feb 2015, 7:18 pm

aspiesavant wrote:

ASPartOfMe wrote:

In my case, it's hit-and-miss. I have a tendency to polarize people.

Some people think my quirkiness is charming. Others think it's annoying. A small minority loves it

Definitely some misses

androbot01
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27 Feb 2015, 9:22 am

Found this article on AWN about ABA.

My Thoughts on ABA Written by Amy Sequenzia

I agree with her. The fundamental principle of ABA is flawed because it views autistic traits as incompatible with integration. In cases of other disabilities it is society that changes to become more compatible. For example, wheelchair access, sign language, accommodations for service animals. What is it about autism that people think needs to be hidden? Honestly, it's like it is some dirty secret to be buried at all costs.

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27 Feb 2015, 10:42 am

There's an easy answer for "What is it about autism".

It's the same answer as "What is it about XXX culture" or "What is it about XXX language."

Accommodating us forces them out of their comfort zone in a fundamental way.

They can be tied in knots to come into our comfort zone, or we can be tied in knots to come into theirs.

"If you want to come to America, that's fine. But, if you want to come to America, you need to become an American."

They're the majority. By a margin of 38:1, they're the majority. Democracy rules. They built the social structures, they wrote the rules, they have the privilege of doing so because they're on top and we're not.

It's their sandbox. If we want to play, we're going to play by their rules. If we're going to be accorded any consideration, to continue the metaphor, it's going to be because their mothers taught them to play nicely, and they like us and feel like doing as their mothers taught them.

If we want to be liked, we have to be likable. If we want to be likable, we have to do what they want until and unless they choose to throw us a bone.

It's not nice, it's not fair, and it's not really right. If the positions were reversed-- if the majority was on our side and the wiring currently known as "NT" was the 2-and-some-fraction-percent minority-- it wouldn't be nice or fair or right to them, and they would be the ones tied up in knots, shut out, and hurting.

That's the reality down here on the ground.

All the chest beating, head banging, and CO2 emission in the world isn't going to change that.

It's a neurotypical world. End of line.

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