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Pieplup
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04 Apr 2016, 3:56 pm

Another Pots which I got by this website is troubling indeed. http://heartlessaspergers.com/stunning- ... f-empathy/


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17 Apr 2016, 9:51 am

People don't become psychopaths / sociopaths because they're Autistic. People become psychopaths / sociopaths because they've been desensitized to the suffering of others following years of neglect or abuse.

People who become psychopaths / sociopaths are typically loners who have been bullied for many years and snap at a certain point in time because they're fed up with the abuse. They've become consumed by rage and hate because they've only seen the nasty side of humanity for most of their lives.

While some individuals with Autism end up become psychopaths / sociopaths, attributing it to their Autism is like attributing a woman killing the man who raped her to her being female. Men like Adam Lanza did not choose to be a loner. Men like Adam Lanza did not choose to be consumed by rage. They've victims of a society that shows little tolerance for those who are "different".



Jono
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18 Apr 2016, 3:51 pm

aspiesavant wrote:
People don't become psychopaths / sociopaths because they're Autistic. People become psychopaths / sociopaths because they've been desensitized to the suffering of others following years of neglect or abuse.

People who become psychopaths / sociopaths are typically loners who have been bullied for many years and snap at a certain point in time because they're fed up with the abuse. They've become consumed by rage and hate because they've only seen the nasty side of humanity for most of their lives.

While some individuals with Autism end up become psychopaths / sociopaths, attributing it to their Autism is like attributing a woman killing the man who raped her to her being female. Men like Adam Lanza did not choose to be a loner. Men like Adam Lanza did not choose to be consumed by rage. They've victims of a society that shows little tolerance for those who are "different".


Defending Adam Lanza like this kind of plays into the mentality of people like the author of that blog post that I started this thread about. Adam Lanza had other problems but even if we assume it to be true that he had Asperger's, that does not mean that Asperger's is the cause of what he did.



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18 Apr 2016, 5:11 pm

Jono wrote:
Adam Lanza had other problems but even if we assume it to be true that he had Asperger's, that does not mean that Asperger's is the cause of what he did.


Exactly my point.

Did you even read what I wrote?!



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18 Apr 2016, 7:37 pm

I'm sure killers like Adam Lanza did experience bullying and trauma growing up. But many people do who do not become consumed with rage and violence, and in fact grow from their experiences to become more compassionate and sensitive toward others. I believe that the few who do snap, who do become psychopaths, do so because a neurological tendency was already there, and got triggered by difficult experiences.

Abuse/neglect does not produce psychopathy in most people, and actually, there are psychopaths out there who did not experience trauma - I should think these would be more 'functional' psychopaths, but still neurologically wired as psychopaths.

I also think that when people become consumed with rage, there is a significant element of choice - it's the choice to embrace the rage, or resist it and mature past it, regardless of who you blame for it. While I think it's good to understand the triggers and lead up to mass killings, I'm not too fond of the idea of viewing someone like Adam Lanza as a victim. I mean, I'm sure Hitler was a victim in his own way (ah crap, did I just invoke Godwin's law? Oh well)...Point is that regardless of all the reasons they got to be the way they are, at some point, certain people are just flat out truly evil. And I think Adam Lanza qualifies as evil.



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18 Apr 2016, 9:16 pm

Juggernaut wrote:
I'm sure killers like Adam Lanza did experience bullying and trauma growing up. But many people do who do not become consumed with rage and violence, and in fact grow from their experiences to become more compassionate and sensitive toward others. I believe that the few who do snap, who do become psychopaths, do so because a neurological tendency was already there, and got triggered by difficult experiences.

Abuse/neglect does not produce psychopathy in most people, and actually, there are psychopaths out there who did not experience trauma - I should think these would be more 'functional' psychopaths, but still neurologically wired as psychopaths.

I also think that when people become consumed with rage, there is a significant element of choice - it's the choice to embrace the rage, or resist it and mature past it, regardless of who you blame for it. While I think it's good to understand the triggers and lead up to mass killings, I'm not too fond of the idea of viewing someone like Adam Lanza as a victim. I mean, I'm sure Hitler was a victim in his own way (ah crap, did I just invoke Godwin's law? Oh well)...Point is that regardless of all the reasons they got to be the way they are, at some point, certain people are just flat out truly evil. And I think Adam Lanza qualifies as evil.


Yeah, whatever he might have suffered in his life, I find it extremely difficult to sympathise with him even though I've known abuse and bullying myself. He walked into a school and shot and killed little children. It really doesn't get any more evil than that.


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18 Apr 2016, 11:40 pm

Not every bullied turns into a school shooter
Not every abused grows up to be a narcissist or have BPD or any cluster B disorders
Not every abused grows up to be an abuser
Not every stressed out person turns into a psycho that they end up killing their own children and themselves, especially if they were handicapped


Everyone is different and I wonder if there is some genetic component and the only way for them to be that way is if something in their environment happens. There is a debate about rather someone can be born evil or if they are created but I wonder if it's both. One has to be born with it but for that person to be evil, it has to be triggered like abuse or something. Look at Diane Downs, she had Cluster B disorders and people could argue, including her, that she became that way because of the abuse from her father and the fact none of his kids were allowed to show feelings and not allowed to cry but none of her siblings grew up to have Cluster B disorders and they were raised the same way as her so could she have been born that way and her father just triggered those disorders because she was born with the genetic factor?


And many others seem to grow up to have PTSD than turning into a psychopath or a narcissistic. Some get multiple personality disorders.


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19 Apr 2016, 3:27 am

League_Girl wrote:
And many others seem to grow up to have PTSD than turning into a psychopath or a narcissistic. Some get multiple personality disorders.


Bullying tends to mess with people's minds... in various ways.

Can we at least agree on that?! :wink:



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19 Apr 2016, 4:07 am

aspiesavant wrote:
Jono wrote:
Adam Lanza had other problems but even if we assume it to be true that he had Asperger's, that does not mean that Asperger's is the cause of what he did.


Exactly my point.

Did you even read what I wrote?!


Yes, I understood what you meant but blaming something like the Sandy Hook shootings on the way others treated Adam Lanza can still be interpreted by some people as saying that people with AS or high functioning autism are "loose cannons". That everyone has to be nice to us or we can blow a fuse. That is really not the message that I want us to be giving people and it's not true or accurate either.



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19 Apr 2016, 8:25 am

Jono wrote:
Yes, I understood what you meant but blaming something like the Sandy Hook shootings on the way others treated Adam Lanza can still be interpreted by some people as saying that people with AS or high functioning autism are "loose cannons".


I do not blame Autism for Sandy Hook or similar shootings.

I blame the intolerant attitude of Neurotypicals towards those who are "different" from whatever arbitrary social norms they hold so very dear.

Jono wrote:
That is really not the message that I want us to be giving people and it's not true or accurate either.


It all depends on how isolated you are... on how much you're ignored or abused; hated or mocked by those around you.

Check out this scene from A Brilliant Young Mind :



I was very much like Luke when I was a teenager... and I was véry, véry close to becoming just another high school shooter.

When all of your peers either hate or mock you for just being yourself, it doesn't take much to become consumed by hate and rage. There's only so much abuse that a person can tolerate... that ANY person can tolerate...



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19 Apr 2016, 2:28 pm

aspiesavant wrote:
Jono wrote:
Yes, I understood what you meant but blaming something like the Sandy Hook shootings on the way others treated Adam Lanza can still be interpreted by some people as saying that people with AS or high functioning autism are "loose cannons".


I do not blame Autism for Sandy Hook or similar shootings.

I blame the intolerant attitude of Neurotypicals towards those who are "different" from whatever arbitrary social norms they hold so very dear.


I didn't say that you blamed Autism. I said that that other people who read what you wrote might interpret it as such. And quite honestly, blaming a shooting on the victims by saying that they bullied the perpetrator is pretty much like blaming the victim. Also, given the fact that the blog post author links to multiple news articles about an alleged autistic (who may or may not have an official diagnosis) committing violent crimes as well as apparent studies about Asperger's and violence (which by the way do not even conclude that there is a link), what people may interpret from what we post concerns me more than what you intended to mean.

aspiesavant wrote:
Jono wrote:
That is really not the message that I want us to be giving people and it's not true or accurate either.


It all depends on how isolated you are... on how much you're ignored or abused; hated or mocked by those around you.

Check out this scene from A Brilliant Young Mind :



I was very much like Luke when I was a teenager... and I was véry, véry close to becoming just another high school shooter.

When all of your peers either hate or mock you for just being yourself, it doesn't take much to become consumed by hate and rage. There's only so much abuse that a person can tolerate... that ANY person can tolerate...


Believe it or not, I know what it's like to be bullied by all your peers, (I was in high school too, you know). However, the way learned to deal with it is to stand up for myself against them (hint: that's why I started this thread), turning to violence is not the way to do it. Standing up for yourself and pure self-defence is still acceptable.



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19 Apr 2016, 3:27 pm

If you feel enough rage and hate that you feel like you could go into a school and start shooting people, there is something pathologically wrong with you whether you were abused or not. Anyone who feels that way should seek professional help immediately. There is never an excuse for acts of violence like what happened at Sandy Hook, no matter what one has experienced. The fact that some people here sympathise with mass shooters is extremely disturbing, and is not something I want to be associated with as an autistic person.


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19 Apr 2016, 3:34 pm

Jono wrote:
I didn't say that you blamed Autism. I said that that other people who read what you wrote might interpret it as such. And quite honestly, blaming a shooting on the victims by saying that they bullied the perpetrator is pretty much like blaming the victim.


Ever heard of the "cycle of violence"?

Victims of prolonged abuse typically become abusers themselves, which often results in abuse being transmitted from one generation to the next... to the next... to the next... until someone is strong enough to break the cycle.

Image

Jono wrote:
what people may interpret from what we post concerns me more than what you intended to mean.


Haters are gonna hate. Nothing we say or don't say will change that.

Jono wrote:
However, the way learned to deal with it is to stand up for myself against them (hint: that's why I started this thread), turning to violence is not the way to do it. Standing up for yourself and pure self-defence is still acceptable.


How on earth is a geeky kid supposed to defend himself when 5 or more bullies are ready to kick his ass?
What is the only boy in a class of girls supposed to do when he doesn't know how to talk to girls ans all the girls hate him... just for being himself?

Self-defense was never an option for me... Still, I managed to find a way to feed the right wolf in the long run...

Image



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20 Apr 2016, 11:05 am

aspiesavant wrote:

Ever heard of the "cycle of violence"?

Victims of prolonged abuse typically become abusers themselves, which often results in abuse being transmitted from one generation to the next... to the next... to the next... until someone is strong enough to break the cycle.



Actually I don't think it's true that 'victims of prolonged abused typically become abusers themselves'. My understanding is that, where this has been properly studied, the majority of people who are abused don't go on to become abusers themselves, especially in females.


Of a sample of men in a climical study 30% (225 of the 747) of males in the study were victims of abuse and 11% (79 men) of them were perpertrators. So the larger portion of males who were abused (146) never went on to become abusers. Males who are abused have a bit of a higher chance of becoming perpertrators than males who are not abused, but still most don't.

Females, in fact, show a very different pattern. 43% (41 of the 96) of females in the study were victims of abuse but only 2% (1 woman) was also a perpertrator. So 40 out of 41 abuse victims didn't go on to become abusers.



Data from 'Cycle of child sexual abuse: links between being a victim and becoming a perpetrator'
M. GLASSER (deceased), I. KOLVIN, D. CAMPBELL, A. GLASSER, I. LEITCH, S. FARRELLY
The British Journal of Psychiatry Dec 2001, 179 (6) 482-494; DOI: 10.1192/bjp.179.6.482


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20 Apr 2016, 12:50 pm

I heard the same thing in a documentary about serial killers. They said that many abused children don't grow up to be killers or abusers or predators. There are tons of people out there who were abused and they turned out fine. What I mean by fine is they didn't turn into an abuser or a psychopath or a narcissist or a killer. I am also sure many bullied don't turn into school shooters or else that will be a hell a lot of school shootings every year and it would happen more on a daily basis everywhere. But I agree that if you feel like killing anyone and find yourself plotting to kill, get help. As a parent if your kid is talking about killing people or themselves or even fantasizing about it, do not have any guns around. Get rid of your fire arm or lock it up or rent a storage unit and store them there. Also get your kid help. That is where Adam's parents failed, they allowed him around fire arm, ignored the red flags and they should have gotten him help and not allow him around any fire arm as a child. Now he was a f****d up 20 year old.


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20 Apr 2016, 3:56 pm

What frustrates me is thet I started this thread to argue against the perception that autistic people are prone to acts of violence but all this talk about Adam Lanza and planned acts of violence re-inforces it. Can we get back on topic please.