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Chamomile
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15 Apr 2011, 9:47 pm

Alright, I've done a rant on Why Neurotypicals Are Better Off With Autistics, now it's time for Why Autistics Won't Last Ten Years Without Neurotypicals.

Firstly, autistics in general suck at war, yes, even the ones who are fond of it. Possibly even some of the ones who are obsessed with it. Being able to predict your enemy's moves is easily the most important part of strategy. Thus, deceit is extremely important to war, but autistics are generally bad at lying. Further, autistics are also generally very, very rigid and predictable, which makes us great civil planners but terrible strategists. This can be overcome, but we're automatically at a disadvantage.

Secondly, the technological advantages are not going to be that drastic. Not only is 90% of all technology already distributed to everyone, NT or not, but there are plenty of brilliant NTs in the world. A purely autistic society will probably have a higher concentration of brilliant engineers, and thus slowly pull ahead in the technological race, but there's two problems. First, it's going to be slow. It won't even make a difference for decades. Second, even once it does, it will be a small difference, which means the NTs will still be able to beat us in 4 out of 10 engagements (all else being equal), which means they can steal our shiny new tech and reverse engineer to bring things back into balance.

Thirdly, numbers. Not only will the number of brilliant innovators per capita for autistics as opposed to NTs rapidly vanish in the face of the fact that they outnumber us a hundred to one, but they're going to have obscene amounts of cannon fodder to throw at us, and that's not even getting into the fact that a significant number of autistics have impaired motor skills. No amount of therapy will magically turn Amanda Baggs into a marine, and every autistic like her is matched by a hundred NTs who can be trained as marines.

Fourthly, and I cannot emphasize this enough, autistics are divisive. We're bad at working with people we don't like. We're bad at putting on a show to avoid irritating other people. There's a reason Neurotypicals evolved this huge web of ridiculous social standards, and it's because it allows them to get together in massive groups and get things done, even if there's only one person at the top of it who knows why it's a good idea. Autistics can learn to be that one person, but only when dealing with NTs. Autistics don't follow crowds. Not even, as far as I can tell, crowds of other autistics. That doesn't mean that autistics can never be friends with other autistics, but it does mean that a purely autistic society would never progress past the hunter-gatherer stage.

Fifthly, autistics are finicky. A lot of us can do brilliant things, but usually only under very specific circumstances. For example, I can't write well unless I'm alone. My strengths and weaknesses are drastically altered between night and day (I'm much better socially during the night, which makes me wish that every important social interaction didn't happen during the day). A lot of autistics have similar quirks, including the fact that we don't do well in unfamiliar environments, which is quite possibly crippling to our ability to field a purely autistic army.

Y'know how the world works best? Small groups of autistic/aspie people acting as strategists for a small group of charismatic NTs who know and accept that they will never, ever understand the autistics' special interests on anywhere near the same level, who act as figureheads to lead major projects. This is a generalization, of course, but the point is that we work better together than separately.



chinatown
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15 Apr 2011, 10:37 pm

Chamomile wrote:
Alright, I've done a rant on Why Neurotypicals Are Better Off With Autistics, now it's time for Why Autistics Won't Last Ten Years Without Neurotypicals.

I'd like to add that without NT tax payers, there's no one to pay for the benefits many autistics need to survive. Or are there enough of those who can work to support those who can't? A majority of (diagnosed) autistics are high-functioning, after all, and with a little "encouragement", even those who live on benefits in the NT society might be able to contribute in an autistic society. I still have doubts.


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androbot2084
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15 Apr 2011, 11:04 pm

First of all autistics do not suck at war but rather they suck at conventional warfare. Autistics could very well be the masters of unconventional warfare. However as ever more insane weapons of mass destruction are invented it may very well be that autistic general would choose to lose the war rather than resort to weapons that mean the end of the world as we know it.

Second of all technological advances would be drastic and would represent quantum leaps in technology. This is because an autistic would no longer be held back by neurotypical people who often fight advances in technology rather than accept new technology. And neurotypical people love to fire brilliant autistic engineers.

And actually being outnumbered 100 to one doesnt mean anything. The intellectual power of one autistic is probably worth a thousand neurotypical people maybe even 10,000. And as far as Amand Baggs goes with robot technology she would be a very fierce opponent.

Autistics are divisive but they are rather revolutionary. Neurotypical people resist change so that is why they find the autistics so offensive.

Autistics are finiky but so what? In an autistic society reasonable accommodation will be givien so that you can grow.

With very few exceptions neurotypical people will never allow autistics to function in their society and autistics will always be discriminated against. Of course an autistic society may have neurotypical individuals but these individuals will be in the minority and will be required to swear allegiance to the autistic.



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15 Apr 2011, 11:09 pm

The only reason why autistics need disability benefits is because they are discriminated against by neurotypical people. In an autistic society even low functioning autistics would not need disability benefits because computer and robot technology would be far more advanced thus allowing all autistics to function at a high level.



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15 Apr 2011, 11:17 pm

androbot2084 wrote:
The only reason why autistics need disability benefits is because they are discriminated against by neurotypical people. In an autistic society even low functioning autistics would not need disability benefits because computer and robot technology would be far more advanced thus allowing all autistics to function at a high level.

Robot servants. Now there's a good reason for autistics to start a country :P


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16 Apr 2011, 6:30 am

androbot2084 wrote:
Yes if you listen to organizations such as "Autism Speaks" of course they will say it is impossible to diagnose Einstein because he is dead. But the real reason is that they do not want to admit that autism was responsible for the genius of Einstein. If they admit that autism is no longer a disorder but rather a gift then their whole cure autism agenda falls apart.


1. Autism is only a gift if you know what to do with it.
2. It also varies from person to person.
3. Also, why does it matter so much if he had autism? He's dead, stop caring so much.
4. Even if he did have ASD, his intelligence was in the top <1%.


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16 Apr 2011, 1:41 pm

Einstein did not achieve his sucess in spite of autism, he achieved his sucess because of autism. Only the autistic mind can generate the powerful uninhibited imagination required to formulate the theory of relativity. While Einstein was imagining traveling at the speed of light the airplane was barely invented and all the rocket technology came from China in the form of fireworks. Even today there is no rocket imaginable that can travel the speed of light.



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16 Apr 2011, 3:28 pm

androbot2084 wrote:
Einstein did not achieve his sucess in spite of autism, he achieved his sucess because of autism. Only the autistic mind can generate the powerful uninhibited imagination required to formulate the theory of relativity. While Einstein was imagining traveling at the speed of light the airplane was barely invented and all the rocket technology came from China in the form of fireworks. Even today there is no rocket imaginable that can travel the speed of light.


Did you even read my post? Also, it's amazing that you can diagnose people from beyond the grave.


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ducky9924
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16 Apr 2011, 3:38 pm

Delirium wrote:
androbot2084 wrote:
And yet if autistic people were set apart and allowed to live in their own society they would for the first times in their lives really thrive because they would no longer be held back. Society blames autistics as being these ret*d deviants yet how come the geniuses of the world like Jesus Christ and Einstein all had autism?


Jesus had autism? lolwut.

Also, there's no proof that Einstein had autism besides "he was smart and socially awkward." He's also dead so you can't really diagnose him.


Jesus? There's a new one. xD I wouldn't doubt it (he was kinda weird), but we really don't have enough evidence to show it. Or any for that matter.

Einstein tho... we've got plenty of evidence for. There's all sorts of records of how he behaved in social settings, how he thought about things, ect. There is nothing that says you can't diagnose someone who's passed away, as long as you have enough accurate records of their behavior.



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16 Apr 2011, 9:13 pm

ducky9924 wrote:
Delirium wrote:
androbot2084 wrote:
And yet if autistic people were set apart and allowed to live in their own society they would for the first times in their lives really thrive because they would no longer be held back. Society blames autistics as being these ret*d deviants yet how come the geniuses of the world like Jesus Christ and Einstein all had autism?


Jesus had autism? lolwut.

Also, there's no proof that Einstein had autism besides "he was smart and socially awkward." He's also dead so you can't really diagnose him.


Jesus? There's a new one. xD I wouldn't doubt it (he was kinda weird), but we really don't have enough evidence to show it. Or any for that matter.

Einstein tho... we've got plenty of evidence for. There's all sorts of records of how he behaved in social settings, how he thought about things, ect. There is nothing that says you can't diagnose someone who's passed away, as long as you have enough accurate records of their behavior.


tbh, all the evidence I've seen is "well he was kinda socially awkward." You can't get a really accurate diagnosis of someone unless you actually meet them face to face.


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chinatown
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17 Apr 2011, 12:29 am

androbot2084 wrote:
Einstein did not achieve his sucess in spite of autism, he achieved his sucess because of autism. Only the autistic mind can generate the powerful uninhibited imagination required to formulate the theory of relativity. While Einstein was imagining traveling at the speed of light the airplane was barely invented and all the rocket technology came from China in the form of fireworks. Even today there is no rocket imaginable that can travel the speed of light.

It's almost like saying Hawking is what he is because of ALS. His IQ was high before it. What about Aristotle, Newton, Curie, Freud and the Chinese?


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Chamomile
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17 Apr 2011, 1:14 am

This is hilariously wrong.

androbot2084 wrote:
First of all autistics do not suck at war but rather they suck at conventional warfare. Autistics could very well be the masters of unconventional warfare. However as ever more insane weapons of mass destruction are invented it may very well be that autistic general would choose to lose the war rather than resort to weapons that mean the end of the world as we know it.


Ahem. Wrong. Autistics suck at all kinds of war because predictability is always bad. In fact, predictability is even worse in unconventional combat than in conventional combat.

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Second of all technological advances would be drastic and would represent quantum leaps in technology. This is because an autistic would no longer be held back by neurotypical people who often fight advances in technology rather than accept new technology. And neurotypical people love to fire brilliant autistic engineers.


You assume this. There's absolutely no evidence for any of it.

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And actually being outnumbered 100 to one doesnt mean anything. The intellectual power of one autistic is probably worth a thousand neurotypical people maybe even 10,000. And as far as Amand Baggs goes with robot technology she would be a very fierce opponent.


Robot technology? Seriously? I find it difficult to believe that even you think we could achieve that in time for it to make a difference tactically.

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Autistics are divisive but they are rather revolutionary. Neurotypical people resist change so that is why they find the autistics so offensive.


Okay. Doesn't make a difference. Autistics generally agree that something is wrong with the world and that we shouldn't just sit around and wait for it to fix itself. What we do not agree on is what exactly the world is supposed to look like. Hell, I know I'd kill you way before I'd let you go forward with any of your "cure/exterminate/enslave NT" plans.

Quote:
Autistics are finiky but so what? In an autistic society reasonable accommodation will be givien so that you can grow.


In a warzone? You're dreaming.

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With very few exceptions neurotypical people will never allow autistics to function in their society and autistics will always be discriminated against. Of course an autistic society may have neurotypical individuals but these individuals will be in the minority and will be required to swear allegiance to the autistic.


Mich heil! Heil! Mich heil! Heil!



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17 Apr 2011, 7:42 am

I suppose you are assuming that if 2 people are in an argument and if an autistic says something that may anger his opponent but would be totally oblivious to the fact that the other person is getting angry then that would be a detriment in the art of diplomacy and war. Well let me first start off that it may not be that the autistic is totally oblivious to facial expressions but rather since the neurotypical mostly engages in small talk that there are more of the brains resources that can be dedicated to reading facial expressions but with the autistic his arguments are so profound that there is little time to concentrate on facial expressions.

So what may seem like a disadvantage for the autistic may work to his advantage. While the neurotypical may better at predicting small uprisings and sqirmishes the autistic can profoundly analyze the real reasons for war such as a lack of resources or any of the other real reasons why nations go to war rather than the superficial reasons that neurotypical's think are the causes of war.



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17 Apr 2011, 8:34 am

androbot2084 wrote:
I suppose you are assuming that if 2 people are in an argument and if an autistic says something that may anger his opponent but would be totally oblivious to the fact that the other person is getting angry then that would be a detriment in the art of diplomacy and war. Well let me first start off that it may not be that the autistic is totally oblivious to facial expressions but rather since the neurotypical mostly engages in small talk that there are more of the brains resources that can be dedicated to reading facial expressions but with the autistic his arguments are so profound that there is little time to concentrate on facial expressions.

So what may seem like a disadvantage for the autistic may work to his advantage. While the neurotypical may better at predicting small uprisings and sqirmishes the autistic can profoundly analyze the real reasons for war such as a lack of resources or any of the other real reasons why nations go to war rather than the superficial reasons that neurotypical's think are the causes of war.


Not all autistic people are logical strategists. I've seen arguments on this board where everyone used logical fallacies. Also, you're ignoring that not all autistic people are high-functioning/geniuses.


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17 Apr 2011, 9:21 am

It is really interesting that neurotypical people try to scare me by presenting the low functioning autistic who is non verbal as a case of the most extreme autism. Yet neurotypical people also have their examples of low functioning individuals. Take someone with Down's syndrome for example. Then it is the neurotypical people that should be afraid of having kids



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17 Apr 2011, 9:41 am

And yes it is true that there is a danger that using logic could produce fallacies but when one truly masters the technology of logic many fallacies can be eliminated. But in neurotypical culture we are taught not to use our logic. People that argue with their bosses usually get fired no matter how eloquent their arguments are. Emotions always wins out as bosses get very angry if their ignorant opinions are challenged.