Attwood and Ari: Nobody wins everyone loses

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I've been away from wrong planet for a couple of weeks and my concerns about the Attwood/FAAA's petition have sadly been proven right.

I stumbled upon a transcript of the AWA podcast featuring both of the protagonists in this dismal affair and even though I have taken Attwoods side from the beginning; I must confess to feeling some sympathy for Ari as after aiming a gun at his target he shot himself in both feet.

Attwood effortlessly deflected the criticisms leveled at him, an easy thing to do as the petition is nothing more than smear by association, but its Ari's contributions that give me cause for concern.

He was forced to admit when challenged by Attwood that he had falsly attributed certain remarks to him; as for comparing FAAA to the KKK that is well, beyond the pale.

Although most serious charge against Ari and ASAN; that I would make is that that they are attempting to stifle legitimate research into AS and relationships.

ASAN could be a force for good, but instead of agitating against McKinnon's extradition on their side of the Atlantic, they decide to wage a war against Attwood, Ashton and Heinault; get your priorties in order.

Ari, I'm afraid is not fit to run a political organisation, he is clearly lacking any commonsense or knowledge of political strategy (try Machiavelli and Sun-Tzu for starters). This has been a major own goal and there have been no winners here, but Ari's supporters will no doubt defend him as ASAN is in my view the Judean peoples front.

There are sadly no winners here; everyone loses.

I'm sorry, but I respectfully must strongly disagree. FAAAS is nothing more than a hate group perpetuating and promoting stereotypes, hate and discrimination against aspies. This includes discrimination in the areas of family law (brainwashing social workers and family law attorneys against aspies even when there is NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER of a particular aspie's "abusiveness") and employment. This directly affects my teenage aspie son, who is a WONDERFUL young man and who has more than enough difficulties to deal with without FAAAS's perpetuation and promotion of strikes against him simply because he's an aspie. FAAAS's black and white, AS-always-wrong-and-hurtful and NT-spouses-always-right-suffering-and-saintly nonsense is also extremely harmful. This will cause aspies great difficulties in even beginning to form relationships, as potential partners check out AS and will get a face full of FAAAS BS.

FAAAS's own words and policies speak for themselves, loudly and clearly, and condemn them loudly and clearly. I am my son's advocate and the advocate of those like him and I will not tolerate FAAAS's hate and discrimination against aspies and its perpetuation and promotion of harmful stereotypes, misinformation and extreme negativity towards AS, and the total lack of consideration of and sensitivity towards what aspies deal with every single day and what life is like for them. They are one-dimensional in that it is ALL on the AS to "change" and the fault for any difficulties in relationships lies solely with the AS. And Karen Rodman has even made clear her belief that ASD children should be segregated from the "regular" school population due to their "violent" tendencies. Ya, right.

Its continued promotion of that very unscientific Cassandra BS is extremely irresponsible and cruel. Aston is not, by any means, any "expert" in AS, she has had no professional training in AS, and her Cassandra nonsense has NEVER been submitted for peer review and has never been scientifically validated. Atwood knows this, he knows the damage that FAAAS perpetuates on aspies every day and he STILL lends his considerable professional prestige to their "advisory" board which, in turn, lends credibility and publicity to FAAAS and its harmful activities and writings. THAT is why Ari's petition should be supported. You need to be more concerned about FAAAS's insidious affects on aspies and their current and future prospects for employment, relationships, family and social lives and in society in general, than you are for Atwood and FAAAS. Ari is doing a great job in advocating for those with ASD and is to be commended and thanked.

Westernwild, your fears about your son's future are completely understandable, particularly when you know how much effort he and you have invested into where he's at now. You want him to have every chance, and to be accepted and valued for who he is, not disadvantaged because of sentiment that paints a very negative stereotype.

If legislation is being pushed or introduced anywhere that could potentially cause discrimination against our AS children and AS people in the future, then it is certainly not the right path to take. This would clearly be harmful. It is easy for all of us to forget the little phrase "do no harm", and to forget to weigh up the ramifications and potential consequences of certain actions.

I have always believed that societal awareness would eventually bring understanding, hopefully in constructive ways, so that people with AS and their families can be helped to find the best solutions and justice for their situation.

The Petition did support that people should be judged for their own actions, rather than judged because of their neurology and negative stereotypes. Your concern about discrimination against Aspies when there is no evidence whatsoever of "abusiveness", is valid. Awareness within the legal system is important, but for the purpose of ensuring that all family members have a forum in which to be heard and find real justice.

The origins of the writings about Divorce and Family Law, probably about 7 years ago I think, were because there were numerous situations known about at the time where the AS partner actually had an advantage at Law because of strong verbal skills and influence within the Legal arena (and better access to finances to fund a legal challenge), and they were using these advantages to misrepresent their skills and family contribution, to the detriment of the best interests of their children (AS & NT children). In these cases the non-AS partners and AS & NT children were powerless and disadvantaged. This is not justice. This is not right in any Family Law Court. I don't think anyone would argue with that. I am aware that these types of situations are still happening in the present day, which is a concern.

I am also concerned to learn from the AS community that the opposite is also happening, where the AS partner is being disadvantaged and losing parental rights. This was not how it was ever meant to be. My impression in the beginning was that it was only ever intended to raise awareness to prevent disadvantage, introduce accountability and ensure a voice and justice for each member of the family.

It may be helpful to mention here that I don't believe partner support groups are just made up of NT females. Some of the partners, male and female, who've attended our meetings over the years are clearly AS themselves, perhaps the more vulnerable, less verbal and assertive types and they are in relationship with very assertive, controlling types of AS people, probably with co-morbids going on, sometimes perhaps mis-diagnoses, definitely unmanaged behaviours. I'm also aware that some NT partners can become "emotional terrorists" which must be very difficult for an AS partner. NT's may be social but they are not necessarily great at relationship, and many have issues from childhood too that will be contributing to the cocktail of dysfunction in the home.

I believe that the AS children of today will be much more likely to find success and happiness within relationship because they have received early intervention, support and training in social and relationship skills. And they have great Mums and Dads, or grandparents. I would not like to think that any Laws introduced today could potentially create discrimination against them in the future. This would be quite cruel. They have a right to create their own reputation and be judged for their own actions, not anyone else's.

Hopefully societal awareness will promote understanding. In Australia I don't think any Laws could be even suggested that risk the possibility of discrimination against any group of people, particularly those who have a disability or neurological difference. I don't think Australians think like that. We tend to push for supports and services, at least I think this is what we do. We're very big on access and equality and social justice. In my opinion, ignorance of AS is the greatest cause of injustice in AS situations.

I understand why ASAN's Petition happened, but I would like to just add my voice of concern about the lid that was lifted on a lot of bitterness and hostility that has created a backlash that may not have been as constructive in favour of a positive AS image as would be desired. AS people also need to be aware of the ways they may also be contributing to the negative perceptions and stereotypes that people have developed.

On the other hand, I think the recent issues have provided some wonderful opportunities for "cross-cultural" discussions which hopefully can create a positive influence for the future. Most of the AS people I've had the privilege of talking with recently are very insightful and stable, and have an amazing wealth of knowledge and understanding to contribute to the world. I hope more of us can talk and hopefully have a positive voice and influence for the future.

Carol Grigg, ASPIA

I am not involved with eithe rthe ASAN petition or Attwood's side of th ematter. Until veyr recently, I didn't even know what Cassandra is supposed to mean other than a character from Greek mythology. As a result, I haven't really taken a radical side. While I do feel research into AS and relationships is alright, and there is no reason why this should only conclude that Aspies have no problems whatsoever, I do have a problem with the term Cassandra syndrome. Relationships are often troubled when one partner has a disability (physical, psychiatric, whatever) and the ohter doesn't, and I've never seen a syndroem for the suffering of some people with a partner with schizophrenia, multiple sclerosis, cancer, ... In all of these cases, not all partners suffer and the disability/illness isn't always to blame when there are relationship problems, but it is clear statistically that there ar emore relationship problems when one partner has these. It doesn't surprise me that the same goes for AS, but why does there need to be a separate syndroem for this?

You're right ChangelingGirl. The concept of Cassandra has been taken too far, and it must seem like AS has been singled out. I would say that the main reason for this is because AS can be so hidden, and because there is still so much ignorance about it. I suspect that societal awareness of AS should eventually overcome the perceived need to push concepts like Cassandra.

I have written some thoughts about Cassandra in the post on the Great Autistic Political Divide. You might find it helpful to have a little browse through that. I'd repeat it here but I must go to bed now. Here in Sydney it's 10.30pm.

Carol Grigg

Cassandra? Wasn't she the person who didn't return Apollos affection, and in return he cursed her to have the gift of prophecy but to never be believed?

Which partner is supposed to be the Cassandra?

You're right about the origin of the term; by extension of its sense, anyone who offers true prophecies that will never be believed can be called a Cassandra to this day. Too often, perhaps, we simply use Cassandra without a qualifying article.

I had always understood it to be that Apollo gave Cassandra the gift of prophecy because he loved her and wanted to woo her, but when she rejected his affection, he placed a curse on her that no-one would believe her prophecies, even though they were true.

The original use of the Cassandra story in relation to Asperger's Syndrome was to liken the experience of a non-Asperger partner to that of Cassandra. In an effort to secure help and understanding for herself/himself and the marriage, she/he would try to describe the marital difficulties to others, but because AS can be so hidden and not readily apparent to those outside the family, she/he was typically disbelieved.

So, she/he is telling the truth, but is disbelieved.

The same phenomenon can be applied to parents who know there is something different about the development of their child but the health professionals won't believe them.

I imagine that Cassandra could also be applied to a person with AS who has been seeking help and describing their problems to health professionals, sometimes for years, but has been disbelieved or mis-diagnosed. This could be what has happened to many people who have received a late diagnosis.

Being disbelieved is painful and frustrating, and not at all helpful or respectful.

Carol

Try engaing with the substance of my post.

Another point that I failed to pick up on is that Ari and ASAN have built up FAAAs as this all powerful monstrous organisation, which he admits is nothing off the sort;

Ari Ne’eman: But this isn’t simply a matter of advice and support. Every year in the Massachussetts legislature, FAAAS promotes a piece of legislation which would [mean that?], as the primary advisor to the state of Massachussetts on [b]Asperger Syndrome related issues, charged with advising the state on changes in law and changes in policy. The fact that this organization can point to someone of such illustrious international reputation as yourself, who has chosen to affiliate himself and his reputation with their organization lends itself to those policy efforts.

Evey year? Not doing a vey good job, considering that it is the primary advisor to the state of Massachussets legislature.

Obviously, you don't keep up very well with what's happening with AS in MA and other New England states. The Asperger's Association of New England has been trying to correct the misinformation, inaccuracies and stereotypes promoted by FAAAS and head off some very real damage that could be done by them in regards to laws, policies and perceptions of those with AS. For example:

http://weeklydig.com/news-opinions/news ... ell-others

FAAAS's "educational" campaign it's championing in the legislature consists mainly of negative, hateful stereotypes that do great damage to aspies; they're particularly dangerous in the areas of family law and employment. FAAAS has credibility with the legislature mainly due its affiliations with figures such as Atwood. FAAAS even has a problem with attempts to improve employment possibilities for AS, which is truly sickening, frankly. Atwood's affiliation with them is extremely damaging because it gives them credibility and publicity they DO NOT DESERVE; they are downright dangerous for aspies. You can see in that article the negative, mean-spirited patronizing attitude displayed by several legislators toward aspies, mainly thanks to FAAAS.

Ari may not be the best person to defend aspies, but he sure is to be commended and thanked for taking on FAAAS and similar groups, and their enablers (such as Atwood) and supporters.

The Cassandra thing is... interesting. It seems Maxine's technique is to make the AS partner the Cassandra instead.

Just to challenge you on that point. In the following link Maxine Aston makes the unsubstantiated claim that aspies are more likely to abusive partners and involved in domestic violence when in fact the legitimate research finds that they are no more likely to be violent in the general population:

http://www.faaas.org/doc.php?25,135

Even Tony Attwood disputes this. Further more Sheila Jennings Linehan considers the above article central to her article advocating discrimination against the AS partner in separation and divorce cases involving child custody:

http://www.faaas.org/doc.php?6,61.

Oh, and if you want to prove that ASAN is attempting to stifle legitimate research, could you cite three articles that Maxine Aston has published in peer reviewed journals that prove some of the above claims.

I find the idea of 'cassandra phenomenon' utterly repulsive, especially in the aspects of it being discussed (disgust?) in this forum. What I read on the FAAAS website was more in relation to 'Cassandra's' relation to the legal and governmental assistive systems, which just seems like a bunch of bitching to me, but the parts about the 'distress of the partner of an AS partner' is utterly offensive to me.

It makes light of the struggle which all on the autistic spectrum face. I do realize the incidence of clinical depression, and the development of other psychological maladies, is high in partners of aspies, but to claim that you are 'suffering from' a 'syndrome' yourself is selfish and indicative of a lack of empathy on YOUR part (and by you i mean cassandra, whatever the hell that means) and also a refusal to recognize the legitimacy of my struggle. It's a cop out, it's a 'let's blame others,' and just as harmful as discriminating against those on the autistic spectrum on the basis of their unsubstantiated 'tendencies' towards violence.

I've known many people that technically 'know' what Asperger's is, but when it comes down to recognizing the specific instances in which it is affecting my life, accommodating, adapting, or even making the simplest efforts to help me fit in or learn what I don't understand, they can be downright hurtful. Mothers, fathers, girlfriends, often just don't understand, and think we are just plain jerks. I'm not a jerk, I have my stumbling blocks and pitfalls, but that's no excuse to malevolently bear false witness concerning the capacity of an Aspie to love and be loved.

Tony Attwood puts it best, as always, 'It's love, but not as we know it.'

Aspie should divorce Cassandra on the grounds of being a heartless and unsympathetic b***h.

*stims*

dok, i just want to point out that you keep referring to ASAN as a British organization, when you say ASAN isn't agitating against McKinnon's extradition. It isn't. Its located in the United States and Ari Ne'eman is American.

I support Ari 100% and I wish Atwood would listen to him.

Your belief in Australians is rather sweet, however sadly unfounded.

Judy Singer has long advocated for people with Asperger Syndrome to be declared congenitally unable to parent. Some time ago she was interviewed on National Radio.
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/talks/lm/stories/s1155653.htm
I object to the basis of her views on Asperger Syndrome based on an undiagnosed person who may or may not be Autistic and who may or may not have another contributing condition. As Judy is well known in Disability Support circles in New South Wales, it is quite disturbing that she may have a considerable amount of influence as can be shown here:
http://www.laclawyers.com.au/legal/Aspe ... drome.aspx
Unfortunately I know a number of autistics, myself included, who have suffered abuse in relationships. We make wonderful targets for controlling and vicious partners. It is easy to isolate someone who does not have strong social ties. It is easy to manipulate someone who cannot clearly identify that he/she is being manipulated and it is very easy to suggest that someone who appears to be highly intelligent but has difficulty with many apparently simple aspects of daily living is lazy and manipulative.

I suggest that relationship faults are based on individual problems and not on neurology, especially given that there are autistic/autistic and autistic/non autistic relationships that work and non autistic/non autistic that don't.