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MrXxx
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23 Dec 2012, 11:58 am

EDIT: "NO link between Asperger's or Autism and Violence, and Why." (the original subject line for this post) has been changed to the current subject line in the interests of clarity.

I keep seeing posts here on WP insisting there is link between AS/Autism and violence. It's time to address why this is happening, and why such insistence is misplaced and wrong.

First of all, disorders listed and defined in DSM are made up constructs based on observed behaviors. They are defined based on observed behaviors. Researchers observe certain groups of patients, categorize certain behaviors, categorize observed behaviors, give the categories labels, then define these labels with lists of criteria that fit the observed behaviors.

Behaviors observed can range in categories from social interactions, to emotional expression, reactions to external stimula, etc. etc. and can also include certain violent behaviors.

What people who are insisting that the Sandy Hook killings are linked to AS and Autism are missing is that violent behaviors have never been listed as traits of Autism or AS as criteria.

This does NOT mean that people with AS or Autism cannot be capable of violence! It simply means that by definition, violent behaviors are not attributed to AS or Autism. Why? Because they aren't. Simple as that.

Violent behaviors are linked to some other disorders, because when violent behaviors are observed, researchers have placed such behaviors under different categories, NOT under AS or Autism.

In short, AS and Autism are NOT linked to violence, because those responsible for DSM say so.

The terms "violence" and "violent" do not appear anywhere in the criteria of either DSM-IV, DSM-IV TR, or DSM-V under Autistic Spectrum Disorder.

The simple FACT of the matter is, the Sandy Hook massacre CANNOT be attributed to AS or Autism, because violence is NOT a symptom of either.

Just because it isn't linked does not mean that Autistics or Aspies cannot commit violence. Nobody is saying so. ALL the reports coming out now are saying is that AS and Autism are not, and CANNOT be the cause.

They cannot be, because violence is not part of the criteria or the definition of AS or Autism.

Violent behaviors are categorized elsewhere.

The following link provides more information about this.

http://psychologyinfo.com/problems/impulse_control.html

Notice that NOWHERE on that page are AS or Autism even mentioned. Why? Because violence and lack of impulse control are not, by definition, part of autism!

We do know that several other disorders are commonly comorbid with Austim. So the question now becomes, "Is there any evidence that violence is more common among Autistics or Aspies?"

The answer is NO.

I'm not one to constantly push people into producing sources for what they say, but in this case, I WILL, because that kind of misinformation is damaging to all of us.

For those of you who are claiming that AS and/or Autism are linked to violence and the Sandy Hook incident I challenge you:


Prove it! Produce your sources! Produce the studies!

Until you do, your claims should be viewed as what they actually are. Misinformation and misinformed opinions that should be ignored.

In the meantime, I would also like to ask that anyone who knows of any studies demonstrating there are NO links between Autism and violence, please post any links to those here too.

I will come back to this thread regularly and add links to any studies posted, right here in the OP. Let's see what we find, shall we? I've found one already. Can you find others?

Studies showing NO link:

http://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10 ... BF02207331

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21713590 (aghogday ~ Looks like Callista also cited this study?)

http://www.wrongplanet.net/postp5111400.html#5111400 (Link to Callista's post below, citing five studies indicating no link)



Studies showing there is a link:

(No submissions as of 12/23/2012 10:54 pm)


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Last edited by MrXxx on 25 Dec 2012, 6:37 am, edited 2 times in total.

Fnord
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23 Dec 2012, 12:13 pm

Thank you.

Can you ask Alex to make a 'Sticky' of this thread?

Can you write an article covering this topic and post it on the front page?



MrXxx
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23 Dec 2012, 12:28 pm

I wish I had the time. I don't, which is why I'm asking for help finding reliable studies.

IMO, claims that there is a link are damaging and ought to be met decisively with insistence on evidence of support for such claims. As I'm nearly certain somebody somewhere is likely to produce "evidence," it's equally appropriate for us to produce clear evidence to the contrary.

It's about time, I think, that claims that the only reason so many reports are coming out now saying there is no link are based on delusional thinking, be soundly refuted. I am personally sick of people making inane claims and NOT backing them up, all the while making claims there are no good reasons for reports refuting links between Autism and violence, when there is plenty of evidence backing up the reports.

Fnord wrote:
Can you ask Alex to make a 'Sticky' of this thread?


Might want to see if the thread picks up steam first, then ask.


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I'm not likely to be around much longer. As before when I first signed up here years ago, I'm finding that after a long hiatus, and after only a few days back on here, I'm spending way too much time here again already. So I'm requesting my account be locked, banned or whatever. It's just time. Until then, well, I dunno...


undercaffeinated
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23 Dec 2012, 2:12 pm

I agree with the purpose of this thread (as I understand it). And I agree that such violent behaviour is not related to autism. And I think it's good to point to studies and other evidence that show that the two are not connected. And I agree with pointing out that violent behaviour is not part of the diagnostic criteria for autism or aspergers.

However, the argument that violent behaviour not being part of the diagnostic criteria proves that there is no connection between autism and violence is flawed... even if the conclusion happens to be correct. That argument only shows that violent behaviour is not required in autism. Aside from that, it's a good post.



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23 Dec 2012, 2:17 pm

See Stal Bjorkly, Aggression and Violent Behavior, 2009, 14, 306-312. This paper suggests that it is not possible to determine if a link exists between AS and violence.

To my mind it is very hard to prove a negative, the failure to find a link between AS and violence suggests that AS is not linked to violence.

S.S. Newman and M. Ghaziuddin, J. Autism Dev Disorder, 2008, 38, 1848-1852. This paper suggests that people with AS tend to have "additional psychiatric disorders", this casts a great doubt over the idea that AS causes violence.

I would like to ask what percentage of school shooters eat beefburgers, I suspect that more than 90 % of all school shooters have eaten a burger. So would it be reasonable to assume that burger eating turns little johnny into a monster who shots up the school ? My answer is no it is unlikely that burgers are linked to school violence.


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Diagnosed under the DSM5 rules with autism spectrum disorder, under DSM4 psychologist said would have been AS (299.80) but I suspect that I am somewhere between 299.80 and 299.00 (Autism) under DSM4.


eric76
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23 Dec 2012, 4:08 pm

MrXxx wrote:
I keep seeing posts here on WP insisting there is link between AS/Autism and violence. It's time to address why this is happening, and why such insistence is misplaced and wrong.


I must have missed those posts. I think that the ones I saw argued quite the opposite.



Fnord
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23 Dec 2012, 4:47 pm

eric76 wrote:
MrXxx wrote:
I keep seeing posts here on WP insisting there is link between AS/Autism and violence. It's time to address why this is happening, and why such insistence is misplaced and wrong.
I must have missed those posts. I think that the ones I saw argued quite the opposite.

Most of them have been subtly worded. Those that haven't tended to be trollish, and may no longer be available.



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23 Dec 2012, 5:50 pm

Its a shame that politics has entered science
nothing good to be gained in the long run



undercaffeinated
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23 Dec 2012, 6:56 pm

Surfman wrote:
Its a shame that politics has entered science
nothing good to be gained in the long run


Science has been tied up with politics for a very, very long time... there can be benefits when the interests of both coincide, but often not much good comes of it.



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23 Dec 2012, 7:02 pm

This may be useful to the discussion:

"Schizophrenia and Violence: Systematic Review and Meta-Analysis"

Quote:
Background

Although expert opinion has asserted that there is an increased risk of violence in individuals with schizophrenia and other psychoses, there is substantial heterogeneity between studies reporting risk of violence, and uncertainty over the causes of this heterogeneity. We undertook a systematic review of studies that report on associations between violence and schizophrenia and other psychoses. In addition, we conducted a systematic review of investigations that reported on risk of homicide in individuals with schizophrenia and other psychoses

...

Conclusions

Schizophrenia and other psychoses are associated with violence and violent offending, particularly homicide. However, most of the excess risk appears to be mediated by substance abuse comorbidity. The risk in these patients with comorbidity is similar to that for substance abuse without psychosis. Public health strategies for violence reduction could consider focusing on the primary and secondary prevention of substance abuse.

Autism and Asperger's Syndrome are not forms of psychosis. Enough said?



quietgirl
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23 Dec 2012, 8:14 pm

Thank you for a truly inspiring post! Bowing and taking action.

There is indeed a widespread bias against us. The word "Aspergers" is apparently no longer a neutral term - I tested this out today in a small study with generic online forums I and my sock puppets are members of. The results were disheartening. Okay, the results were somewhat frightening. But I'm not going to address it now, on Christmas Eve Eve.

I am concerned, well all right, I'm flat-out scared! And I have no idea what to do next, or where to turn.

I want to go get drunk, and tell a bunch of bad jokes to people I'm comfortable with, and after the holidays I want to properly address the issues and take action.

Please count me in for whatever is needed.



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23 Dec 2012, 8:17 pm

Quote:
However, most of the excess risk appears to be mediated by substance abuse comorbidity.
Notice this part. It means that schizophrenia is not the directly associated factor; the increase can be predicted almost entirely by the increased number of people with schizophrenia who are also substance abusers. (This does not mean that drug use causes violent crime; it's a correlation. Perhaps the factor behind both drug use and violence is a personality trait like impulsivity, or the mere fact that most drug abuse is illegal. In any event, you can't tell from a simple correlational study.)

Anyway: Autism and violence--no relationship.

Pervasive developmental disorders and criminal behaviour: a case control study
Quote:
Abstract:
The prevalence and pattern of criminal behaviour in a population of 313 former child psychiatric in-patients with pervasive developmental disorders were studied. The patients were divided into three subgroups and compared with 933 matched controls from the general population. Age at follow-up was between 25 years and 59 years. An account of convictions in the nationwide Danish Register of Criminality was used as a measure of criminal behaviour. Among 113 cases with childhood autism, .9% had been convicted. In atypical autism (n=86) and Asperger's syndrome (n=114) the percentages were 8.1% and 18.4%, respectively. The corresponding rate of convictions in the comparison groups was 18.9%, 14.7%, and 19.6% respectively. Particular attention is given to arson in Asperger's syndrome (p= .0009).
(Note the much lower rates of criminal behavior in those with more severe autism, while crime rates for Asperger's are similar to the general population. The rate of arson in Asperger's, however, is elevated--meaning that we commit about the same number of crimes, but are more likely to choose arson than an NT would be. My speculation is that arson is a crime which does not involve other people, only their property, and so is not so socially demanding.)

No increase in criminal convictions in Hans Asperger's original cohort.
Quote:
Abstract:
Hans Asperger originally used the term "autistic psychopathy" to describe his patients on the autism spectrum, leading to a possible confusion with psychopathic disorder and delinquent behaviour. We conducted a penal register search for 177 former patients of Asperger's clinic with a childhood diagnosis of "autistic psychopathy" or features of the disorder in Austria. The mean percentage of registered convictions was similar to that in the general male population of Austria over the studied time period. A qualitative assessment of offence types in Asperger's former patients suggests that the nature of offences does not differ from that in the general population. In this original cohort of Asperger's patients, convictions were no more common than in the general male population.
(Note that in this cohort there is not an increased risk of arson for Asperger's, since the nature of the offenses is not qualitatively different from the general population.)

Empathy, values, morality and Asperger's syndrome.
Quote:
Abstract:
The aims of this study were, first, to re-address the issue of empathy among people with autism conditions; second, to explore the relationships between empathy and values among autistic populations and controls; and third, to explore the capacity for moral agency among those affected by autism. We compared responses of an Asperger group (N = 41) and a control group (N = 139) to measures of self-reported empathy (Davis's IRI) and value priorities (Schwartz's PVQ). Control group results were largely in line with previous studies, such that empathy subscales of perspective taking and empathic concern showed their strongest positive and negative relations to the Schwartz self-transcendence/self-enhancement dimensions. Results for the Asperger group showed that although on the one hand there were self-reported difficulties in perspective taking and the cognitive recognition of affect, and that on the other hand there were less connections between the empathy and value measures, there was nevertheless a comparable prioritization of moral values. Conclusions suggest that different people may acquire moral values through different mechanisms.
(This study shows the Asperger's subjects having about the same value system as their NT peers, despite their impairment in theory of mind and difficulty in understanding/detecting others' emotions. I agree with the authors' conclusions that there is more than one way to learn about morality, which is why Asperger's doesn't stop you from caring about others and having a firm set of morals.)

Moral and social reasoning in autism spectrum disorders.
Quote:
Abstract:
This study compared moral and social reasoning in individuals with and without autism spectrum disorders (ASD). Ten familiar schoolyard transgressions were shown to 18 participants with and 18 participants without ASD. They judged the appropriateness of the behavior and explained their judgments. Analysis of the rationales revealed that participants with typical development used significantly more abstract rules than participants with ASD, who provided more nonspecific condemnations of the behaviors. Both groups judged social conventional transgressions to be more context-bound than moral transgressions, with this distinction more pronounced in typically developing individuals, who also provided significantly more examples of situations in which the depicted behaviors would be acceptable. The educational implications of these findings for individuals with ASD are discussed.
(Here we see ASD subjects having more trouble with explaining abstract rules of morality and with hypothetical situations--a cognitive trait which leads the ASD subjects to apply rules more universally and strictly than their NT friends. In practice, this probably means that ASD people are less likely to "make excuses" for moral transgressions based on a person's circumstances--they may tend toward being very hard on themselves as well as on others.)

Moral judgment in adults with autism spectrum disorders.
Quote:
Abstract:
The ability of a group of adults with high functioning autism (HFA) or Asperger Syndrome (AS) to distinguish moral, conventional and disgust transgressions was investigated using a set of six transgression scenarios, each of which was followed by questions about permissibility, seriousness, authority contingency and justification. The results showed that although individuals with HFA or AS (HFA/AS) were able to distinguish affect-backed norms from conventional affect-neutral norms along the dimensions of permissibility, seriousness and authority-dependence, they failed to distinguish moral and disgust transgressions along the seriousness dimension and were unable to provide appropriate welfare-based moral justifications. Moreover, they judged conventional and disgust transgressions to be more serious than did the comparison group, and the correlation analysis revealed that the seriousness rating was related to their ToM impairment. We concluded that difficulties providing appropriate moral justifications and evaluating the seriousness of transgressions in individuals with HFA/AS may be explained by an impaired cognitive appraisal system that, while responsive to rule violations, fails to use relevant information about the agent's intentions and the affective impact of the action outcome in conscious moral reasoning.
(Once again, here we have this group of ASD people judging morality based on concrete rules. With the typical autistic style, these people are using right/wrong distinctions rather than a sliding scale of different shades of gray--meaning that they judge some transgressions to be more severe, simply because the person in the scenario has broken a rule. The usual problem with multi-tasking and juggling complex semantics can be seen as well: In many moral scenarios, the mental states of many people must be taken into account simultaneously, which is difficult if you have trouble doing more than one thing at a time. To compensate, these autistics seem to have formed a system of rules to which they adhere, rather than having to constantly do the complex mental gymnastics of perspective-taking, and risk making a mistake which hurts someone.)


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quietgirl
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23 Dec 2012, 8:22 pm

Dammit, is there a private area where we can speak freely about all this? I'm paranoid as hell to share my thoughts where NTs could possibly see them. i'm still new and it's all confusing as hell, because I think the fact that his mother indicated she was thinking of sending him away may have been on his mind. Not that that's any excuse, but ...oh, hell! There are no easy answers to any of it.
I'm circling my wagons as I always do, out of fear of being misunderstood, will someone please tell me where our wagons should be because I am quite lost and feeling helpless.



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23 Dec 2012, 8:29 pm

Everyone is looking to blame shift via rationalisation, and choosing sub groups least favoured by them as derisory targets.

Meh politics.... surely sexual repression and the church are in some way guilty??



quietgirl
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23 Dec 2012, 8:39 pm

One more thing, sorry, but can someone please look into the video game thing? The James Holmes Aurora incident prompted me to do research about these potentially damaging violent games which simulate reality in ways which may affect those on the spectrum. Isn't there something about epileptic seizures being triggered by these things? not meaning to sound like a Tipper Gore but seriously, I had blogged extensively about the effects of social isolation, disruption of the status quo (we don't like change when it's unexpected, forced, and detrimental) combined with these addicting and violent online things which could potentially present an alternative "reality" seen as tempting when present and future realities may be too grim to bear.

I work in a legal and security-related field, I was brought in on the aurora matter, and I really believe that some private forum where we can share freely and brainstorm may be advisable. Sorry if I'm speaking out of turn, my security training is kicking in and please forgive me for inappropriate suggestions, but we really do need a secure and private place JIC.



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23 Dec 2012, 8:47 pm

quietgirl wrote:


I work in a legal and security-related field, I was brought in on the aurora matter, and I really believe that some private forum where we can share freely and brainstorm may be advisable. Sorry if I'm speaking out of turn, my security training is kicking in and please forgive me for inappropriate suggestions, but we really do need a secure and private place JIC.


welcome to WP :D
I hope something good can happen for your work here at WP
its a very broad spectrum of aspies
With right wwing gun nuts to ash covered sadhus to gamers to future and present parents
But a big chunk of us do look like Sheldon