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ASPartOfMe
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27 Jun 2020, 6:00 am

Neurotype Dysphoria Including pro-cure autistics in the neurodiversity paradigm.

Robert Chapman, Ph.D. is a neurodivergent academic and research fellow in the philosophy department at the University of Bristol, UK. He specialises in the philosophy of medicine, neurodiversity theory, and disability theory. He has previously taught at the University of Essex and the King's College London. From August 2019 he will be leading the two-year research project Health and Wellbeing for a Neurodiversity Age, and exploring themes relating to the project through this blog. All opinions expressed here are his own.

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A recent article published in the journal Bioethics poses a question for myself and other neurodiversity proponents: how do we account for autistic people who believe they are mentally disordered and want a treatment or cure for their autism to be developed?

As an ethical issue, we can understand the challenge as follows. If neurodiversity proponents were successful in establishing a shift to the neurodiversity paradigm, and disabilities such as autism were therefore depathologised, then this shift might be felt as harmful or oppressive for those autistics who see autism as a genuine medical pathology in need of a cure. Given this, then arguably, it is our responsibility to develop the conceptual and practical space for pro-cure autistics to not have their identities and agency invalidated by the neurodiversity paradigm.

It is worth mentioning that research suggests most autistics identify as autistic rather than seeing it as a pathological addition to their selfhood. Moreover, the oft-repeated claim that autistic people with high support needs all want to be cured is not supported by any evidence. In fact, a range of people from across from spectrum reject the search for a cure.

Still, it is clear that there are some autistic people who don’t feel that their autism is part of their identity, and who do support the search for a cure. And its also true that if the neurodiversity paradigm was implemented, this may seem like it could invalidate their identification and preferences. So this is something neurodiversity proponents need to take into account as we work towards the paradigm shift.

Internalised Stigma?
Of course, the issue certainly hasn’t been ignored. Many analyse pro-cure autistics through the lens of internalised stigma or internalised ableism. This is similar to how we might understand a gay person who actively seeks out pseudoscientific gay conversion therapy as doing so because of internalised homophobia.

I suspect there is a grain of truth in this, at least in some cases. After all, if we understand ableism as structural and systemic, then we will all likely have internalised ableism, and this will play some role in our judgments and preferences. Moreover, there is a huge, overwhelming pressure on autistics to try and appear “normal” by masking. This has been found to harm not just autistic people but also their families or carers. So it would be very surprising if this context didn’t contribute in some way to autistics wanting a cure to be developed.

Still, I think this framing runs into problems. One issue is that it's perfectly coherent that someone could want to change neurotypes for reasons unrelated to ableism. If we imagine a future where this is technologically possible for a moment, there are all sorts of reasons one might want to do this. They may just be interested in experiencing the world from a different perspective, for instance. Importantly, they need not be a neurodivergent person wanting to be neurotypical either: they could be a neurotypical who wanted to be neurodivergent.

A second issue is that this framing could (although I am sure most proponents would not want this) reinforce concepts like the “self-hating autistic"—a term I have occasionally seen some people use to dismiss those who seek a cure. Needless to say, the notion of “self-hating autistics” is highly offensive, and arguably contributes to ableism itself, given that it functions to undermine the agency and concerns of some autistic individuals. Moreover, even if we can avoid terms like "self-hating autistics," reducing the issue to internalised stigma still may be felt to trivialise the distress and undermine the agency of pro-cure autistics regardless.

In my view, even if someone's preference was somehow shown to be influenced by internalised stigma, this still doesn't invalidate the preference itself. Hence, while I personally strongly believe that autism is not a mental disorder, I also believe that it is important to not use the concept of internalised stigma in a way that could minimise the concerns of pro-cure autistics.

Neurotypes Dysphoria
My modest proposal is to introduce to the concept of—for lack of a better term—“neurotype dysphoria.” What this would refer to is when an individual feels discontent with their neurotype, which in some cases can be to the extent that they would change their neurotype if they could.

This framing has multiple benefits. First, it allows us to acknowledge and recognise that some people suffer due to a clash with their neurotype. This doesn’t assume that their neurotype itself is pathological, but it does nonetheless acknowledge that one’s neurotype may come with limitations that clash with one’s aspirations and identity, and moreover that this clash itself can be experienced as harmful.

Second, the concept of neurotype dysphoria is compatible with the internalised stigma analysis but is equally compatible with the issue not being one of internalised stigma at all. Given this, it allows us to acknowledge each different case through sensitivity to the individual and their context, and thus provides more space for the agency of pro-cure autistics.

Third, it allows us to acknowledge that neurotype dysphoria can go both ways, between neurodivergent and neurotypicals. I think this is important because the discourse tends to assume it will only be neurodivergent people who feel like this, but I suspect many neurotypicals do, too. After all, it is not unheard of for people to wish they were "less normal." Normality can be oppressive even for those whose neuro-cognitive functioning fall within statistical or social norms

Beyond "Curing”
One further important difference is that this framing allows us to grant all of the above without the issue being framed as a matter of “curing,” since it does not assume that what we are talking about are disorders. Rather, it is one of changing aspects of one’s cognition to align with how one wants to be.

Of course, there may be other totally different ethical issues that arise from the possibility of, say, altering an individual's cognition—many people are against this for all sorts of reasons—but here the issue wouldn’t be framed as one of curing a disorder. So while there may be other good reasons to think that developing technology to alter neurological functioning might be ethically worrying, those worries can be discussed independently of whether we consider it a matter of "treatment" or not.

It is important to note that one implication of this shift would be that it would likely reduce the resources put into trying to understand the biology of autism, hence making it less likely that "treatments" would be developed. So the pro-cure autistic might still have a disagreement here. Still, even if there is a disagreement, this does not undermine their agency in any way. The matter of how we direct limited resources is a complex one that has to take many factors into account, and cannot be based solely on what a small proportion of the autistic population think. The core issue here is that if most autistics don’t want to be cured, then it's hard to see why most research funding should be used on trying to understand the biology of autism as is currently the case. And this argument holds whether we agree or disagree with the neurodiversity paradigm as such.

Moving Forward
It is important to emphasise that the neurodiversity movement is a social justice and conservationist movement, and a big part of that is to resist eugenics (as I have written about here). The main task is to challenge the notion that neurodivergent disabilities are necessarily tragic or pathological, and moreover to make the world more accessible for us. In the long run, I hope that as the world becomes more accessible and less stigmatising for neurodivergent people, then fewer people will experience neurotype dysphoria, and the issue will be less pressing. However, it is also the case that the vocabularies we construct don’t undermine the agency or struggles of people who wish their brains functioned differently than how they currently do.


While pro cure autistics can speak for themselves my prediction is that pro cure autistics will be offended by the article because it is offensive. It violates the whole neurodiversity concept of nothing for us without us. In almost 7 years of reading articles by pro cure artistics what I have seen is that the vast majority do not think they were born into the wrong neurotype, they disagree with the whole concept of neurodiversity, they think autism is a pathology.

The author assumes because the research suggests the majority of autistics are against a cure that this is true. While my readings by autistics would agree with said research, the research into this question is minimal and there are legitimate questions in regards as to how representative of the autistic population the people sampled are.

The author takes a very 2020 reapproriated view of gender dysphoria as a human variation. The author needs to be reminded gender dysphoria is in the DSM because correctly or not it is viewed as a pathology.

In conclusion this article is a autistic version of the SJW phenomenon. A person trying to help by being condescending, by changing language to make him feel good, speaking for people who disagree with him. The author also harms the neurodiversity movement by being a prime example of a widespread stereotype of neurodiversity movement proponents. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.


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Last edited by ASPartOfMe on 27 Jun 2020, 10:59 am, edited 6 times in total.

Edna3362
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27 Jun 2020, 6:25 am

"Neurotype Dysphoria"

I like it. :lol:


I'm built to be very emotional. But I don't want to be emotional.
Sure, I'm autistic -- but too bad, not that type of autistic.


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vermontsavant
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27 Jun 2020, 7:28 am

There is a whole range of feelings different autistic people have and functioning level rarely determines those feelings.
Neurodiversity and cure/medicalist are just possible theory's,there is no conclusion at this point.


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27 Jun 2020, 8:02 am

There's probably a solid ethical argument to be made that *any* research into changing people's neurotype needs to be prevented. Not even because it will be abused and used on people without their consent (e.g. children) to normalise them.

No, because it will be used to turn some people into sociopaths and others into drones, as either of those traits will give you a vital edge in society and the workplace, depending on what you do. Do we *want* a society of paperclip maximisers?

Sorry, pro-cure "people with autism", but I'm not willing to let you summon a demon in the hopes of changing how you think. The cure you're looking for is an existential threat to humanity.



carlos55
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27 Jun 2020, 11:25 am

Looks like another Mickey Mouse “professor” teaching made up subjects with a pre set narrative.

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Robert Chapman, Ph.D. is a neurodivergent academic and research fellow in the philosophy department at the University of Bristol, UK. He specialises in the philosophy of medicine, neurodiversity theory, and disability theory. He has previously taught at the University of Essex and the King's College London. From August 2019 he will be leading the two-year research project Health and Wellbeing for a Neurodiversity Age, and exploring themes relating to the project through this blog. All opinions expressed here are his own.


Unlike science there is no search for truth in these subjects. Truth is whatever the person teaching says it is. So truth in China, US, France, Iran is all subjective, where maths, medicine and other science is nearly always the same universally E=mc sq everywhere.

Students of these subjects need to realize they are being used as a tool for profit by these universities.

The universities realized a while back that they had a massive almost unlimited profit potential to expand into a list of made up subjects they teach by poor quality “ professors”under the humanities label while Charging extortionate fees for them.

“Graduates” not only end up struggling to find the job they hoped for they end up earning less than the worker next to them in a min wage job once student loans are deducted after their pay.

Of course Neurodiversity will exist in the form of equal opportunities accepted by NTs, but the “professor” is delusional if he believes the paradigm will ever be taken seriously.

1. Despite bogus surveys to the contrary it’s impossible to tell how many autistic people would want to be cured. This is because a sizable number have a serious intellectual disability and would not be able to understand the question.A WP survey taken showed approx 30% wanted a cure. The problem is they could all comprehend the question and use a computer and it could be argued that WP is more likely to attract advocates anyway especially from rich English speaking countries.

A survey done in Bangladesh where people poorer and are obliged to support their parents and families with no safety net where being autistic has more serious consequences to survival would prob yield a higher score anyway, not that it’s a competition the first to 51% wins the debate.

2 the paradigm will never be accepted as its contradictory and does not make sense. It’s all about wanting to de-disabiling the condition of autism and calling it a form of left handedness. Not only is this absurd in the face of severe autism but it’s contradictory. One cannot say someone needs 24/7 care with autism and claim they are not disabled. It’s as simple as that.

Is really accepting one has a condition that is a disability in others with more severe symptoms really that hard to accept? Who are they fooling? Do they think NTs will really care or believe it


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carlos55
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27 Jun 2020, 11:40 am

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=emb ... bG-rMOYKC4


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27 Jun 2020, 12:22 pm

Hmm, somehow I manage to be the outlier once again. I do identify as autistic - it affects every aspect of my life. But for me, once I lost the stereotypical Aspie memory I had as a kid, it became pretty much exclusively a disability for me, since that seems to be the only benefit I got and I lost it over a decade ago and will never get it back. What I would really like is to have been born NT because even if I suddenly became NT this instant, or any other instant, it would be horrible trying to transition from my life to one an NT would accept. But basically I am someone who identifies as autistic, but I’m not one of the ones who hold it as a badge of honor or anything, I personally would probably literally pay an arm and a leg if I had to in order to be “cured” or “changed” or whatever you want to call it - I know I wouldn’t even be able to be recognized as the same person, that I wouldn’t really even be the same person, but the key difference for me is that I don’t like who I am now.

I know, yet another comparison :roll: But for example, if I am confirmed to have lymphoma, I will identify as whatever-the-non-person-first-term-is-for-someone-with-lymphoma (if such a thing even exists. Lymphomatic? That just sounds like some cheap appliance. Maybe just go less specific and say I’m cancerous?), because it greatly affects my everyday life. But does that mean I don’t want to be cured of it? Heck no, the mass I have in my neck and chest is confirmed to already be partially blocking my airway, and if left untreated will probably just keep growing until it completely blocks my airway or blocks a major artery or something, but whatever the case, if left untreated it would probably kill me in one way or another. The changes it makes to me are all negative. I’m pretty darn sure that most people (really only excepting the extremely religious people who deny any sort of medical treatment because they believe that if they are meant to keep living, God (or insert deity of choice if you believe in something/somethings other than the biblical God) will save them) would want to be cured of lymphoma even though it would make a great change in their lives - because that change will eventually lead to only positive things.


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27 Jun 2020, 3:05 pm

Academia oversimplifies our experiences. I'm glad that there are ND proponents who want to listen to a range of experiences. (I myself have complex feelings about my diagnosis that doesn't fit squarely into the "medical" or "social" model.) John Elder Robison has come around and come up with more complex ways of describing neurodiversity. But condescending researchers are still alive and thriving.


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27 Jun 2020, 3:08 pm

The larger the tumor mass, the more likely it is benign.

I wouldn’t assume it is cancerous until it’s confirmed by biopsy.



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27 Jun 2020, 3:15 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
The larger the tumor mass, the more likely it is benign.

I wouldn’t assume it is cancerous until it’s confirmed by biopsy.


I know it’s entirely possible it isn’t cancer, that just struck me as a good example :)


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27 Jun 2020, 4:18 pm

"Neurotype Dysphoria" the mental illness of wanting to be cured of a disabling brain condition.I think we have hit peak lunacy here :roll:

Would be funny if not so tragic, people actually PAY and get into DEBT to get taught by this guy :lol:


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27 Jun 2020, 9:52 pm

Oh, this seems to be a very polarising issue.
I actually thought "neurotype dysphoria" sounded like a pretty cool concept.
But yes, it does seem to be predicated on a utopian concept of autism not being inherently disabling, and as such maybe it's something that isn't going to be too palatable.
Perhaps we should be concentrating more on making life better for those who hate their autism rather than telling them they have "neurotype dysphoria"... just to add another label into the mix...



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28 Jun 2020, 3:19 am

:lol: In my case, it was never about upbringing. It was never about stigmas.

It was about being held back by something else entirely.
In which I'm sure I'm not talking about autism here, but it is very sure there's something's off about my body.

I have traits that does not identify obviously -- as opposed to longing to become something else.
Not even autism could explain this discrepancies.


I like the idea because if humans get to play around another variable to twist against... :twisted: Can they take it? Can they pay for it?
Every identification and every denial of has a cost of it's own, has it's own pass and has it's own excuses.

Why these things intrigues me because from where I live, the talks about the myriad numbers of labels to identity are quite limited. Very unlike in the Americas and the West.
To get to know certain unheard of terms for me means to get ahead of these things. :roll:

But heck yes. :lol:
The hypothetical eugenics issue -- one insists it's for the sake of the livelihood of those who are 'affected' as if it's some autism-free utopia.
And another against these things -- the issues of consent, societal pressures and prejudice.
The argument of the article suggests some humans covet X neurology or unsatisfied with Y neurotype, and therefore this term.

Whether X neurology is derived as 'loser' and Y neurology are for 'winners' would be just another grand human denial's dissatisfaction loop.
Obviously, this implies non-acceptance and itself would go against what neurodiversity stands for.

In other words, it's a very specific term for "autistics who are stuck still stuck at stages of grief".
There are 5 stages of grief, yes?
Of stages to acceptance blurs by itself, creating this limbo of acknowledging what it is but never fully accepting for what is.
I'm past this myself.

But outside autism? It could be curiosity, it could be envy. :P Humans are insatiable by itself. Would they resist this idea?
I myself plays with this idea outside autism. This is "where" I'm now.


I can't wait for more terms to come out. :mrgreen:


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