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women, testosterone and femininity

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cavernio
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16 Aug 2012, 3:44 pm

Kurgan wrote:
Nonperson wrote:
Fat, soft thighs and upper arms are caused by estrogen and are therefore feminine. Why aren't they considered attractive? Zomg, society is trying to make me turn into a man.
:P

Oh yeah, and the Beatles were really ultra-masculine...


Actually, the women rated the most attractive have much of their fat stored at their thighs and buttocks.

If a woman is morbidly obese, though, it's not caused by estrogen, but a (to put it mildly) gluttonous lifestyle.


There's actually a lot of proper research that links obesity and hormones, including estrogen, in both sexes, although mainly studied properly in rats because, you know, purposefully trying to make people fat from birth would be unethical. I'd link but I can't atm.

Also Kurgan, I don't think I ever saw the counter-argument to the fact that hairlessness is prepubescent. If we're *only* talking about masculine v feminine in very strict biological terms, then sure, it's more feminine, but when you include the entirety of humanity (and I don't know why you wouldn't, we're looking at us as a species, right?), which includes children, it's very, very clear that to rid oneself of body hair, be you man or woman, turns you more into a boy or girl respectively. Which is very unsexual and biologically should be unattractive since sex with kids is evolutionarily a bust.
Of course, it's pretty absurd to try and separate individual sexual characteristics in and of themselves. They all work together to create masculinity or femininity, and that includes societies' definition of them.



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16 Aug 2012, 3:52 pm

hansky wrote:
Kurgan wrote:
hansky wrote:
I have the same opinion about body hair on women. It grows there naturally and it's a pain in the butt to remove it. The only reason it's considered unattractive to keep your body hair is because our society agrees that it is.


First of all, body hair is caused by androgens. Removing them will make a woman appear more feminine, but if a man shaves his beard, it does not make him more masculine.

Secondly, body hair on a woman is much less dense and grows slower than it would on a man, thus it's easier to remove.


First of all, a woman removing her body hair does not make her any more feminine than a man repressing his feelings makes him masculine.



It kinda does. Like it or not.


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hansky
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16 Aug 2012, 6:22 pm

BlueMax wrote:
ValentineWiggin wrote:
BlueMax wrote:
ValentineWiggin wrote:
There are about five strawmen in there.

Then you should be easily able to defeat them with sensible argument - right? ;)

What argument is there to be made? "You can't read" ?

Especially when the entire thread diversion took place because someone was shaming women FOR having body hair. :lol:

If pointing out body hair is brought about by puberty is "coercion", I might as well just let the Flat Earth Theorists fly back to their flock and claim victory.

Nah, I'll not engage people too intellectually bankrupt to address what I actually say, hence why I've been ignoring several "responses" to my posts.


Having an opposing view doesn't make someone "intellectually bankrupt"... who's to say your "let it grow wild and free" argument is the correct one and only one allowed? :?


No one said that all women should "let it grow wild and free." We were arguing whether removing body hair makes a woman more feminine. Of course, it should be a woman's choice whether she wants to remove her body hair or not.



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16 Aug 2012, 6:24 pm

OliveOilMom wrote:
hansky wrote:
Kurgan wrote:
hansky wrote:
I have the same opinion about body hair on women. It grows there naturally and it's a pain in the butt to remove it. The only reason it's considered unattractive to keep your body hair is because our society agrees that it is.


First of all, body hair is caused by androgens. Removing them will make a woman appear more feminine, but if a man shaves his beard, it does not make him more masculine.

Secondly, body hair on a woman is much less dense and grows slower than it would on a man, thus it's easier to remove.


First of all, a woman removing her body hair does not make her any more feminine than a man repressing his feelings makes him masculine.



It kinda does. Like it or not.


It does by our society's standards. I think gender norms are stupid.



Kurgan
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16 Aug 2012, 6:27 pm

hansky wrote:
OliveOilMom wrote:
hansky wrote:
Kurgan wrote:
hansky wrote:
I have the same opinion about body hair on women. It grows there naturally and it's a pain in the butt to remove it. The only reason it's considered unattractive to keep your body hair is because our society agrees that it is.


First of all, body hair is caused by androgens. Removing them will make a woman appear more feminine, but if a man shaves his beard, it does not make him more masculine.

Secondly, body hair on a woman is much less dense and grows slower than it would on a man, thus it's easier to remove.


First of all, a woman removing her body hair does not make her any more feminine than a man repressing his feelings makes him masculine.



It kinda does. Like it or not.


It does by our society's standards. I think gender norms are stupid.


So it's stupid for a woman to try to look like she has a more feminine hormonal balance? Hair removal in woman is no more stupid than toe nail clipping or showering.



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16 Aug 2012, 7:24 pm

hansky wrote:
Of course, it should be a woman's choice whether she wants to remove her body hair or not.

Just as it's also everyone else's choice whether or not they like it.



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16 Aug 2012, 9:18 pm

BlueMax wrote:
hansky wrote:
Of course, it should be a woman's choice whether she wants to remove her body hair or not.

Just as it's also everyone else's choice whether or not they like it.


Some people in this forum were trying to justify their disapproval of woman's body hair by saying it's feminine to remove body hair. If you think hairy armpits are unattractive, you could just say it instead of trying to prove biology makes it unfeminine.



hansky
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16 Aug 2012, 9:21 pm

Kurgan wrote:
hansky wrote:
OliveOilMom wrote:
hansky wrote:
Kurgan wrote:
hansky wrote:
I have the same opinion about body hair on women. It grows there naturally and it's a pain in the butt to remove it. The only reason it's considered unattractive to keep your body hair is because our society agrees that it is.


First of all, body hair is caused by androgens. Removing them will make a woman appear more feminine, but if a man shaves his beard, it does not make him more masculine.

Secondly, body hair on a woman is much less dense and grows slower than it would on a man, thus it's easier to remove.


First of all, a woman removing her body hair does not make her any more feminine than a man repressing his feelings makes him masculine.



It kinda does. Like it or not.


It does by our society's standards. I think gender norms are stupid.


So it's stupid for a woman to try to look like she has a more feminine hormonal balance? Hair removal in woman is no more stupid than toe nail clipping or showering.


Women do not remove their body hair to look like they have a feminine hormonal balance! I've said this already; it's just a modern standard of beauty.

Also, toe nail clipping and showering serve hygienic purposes while hair removal does not. I'm not dirty because I keep my body hair.



OliveOilMom
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16 Aug 2012, 11:18 pm

But hairy women just don't look right. I'm sorry but they don't. Now, that being said, I don't grow much body hair. I have about four hairs on each leg that grow on my calves and I have to shave them about once every two months. My underarm hair grows enough to look for to shave about four times a year. I do not grow much body hair. My daughters shave all body hair. We buy a ton of razors.

Boys shave all that too now, around here. My son and my daughters fiance shave all their body hair. That's wierd for boys to me, cause my husband is about as hair as one of the dogs. I mean he's got some serious body hair. It's all over. He's even got hairy toes. And hands. But though, lack of body hair seems to be the thing now.

I think guys look wierd without body hair, but that's just me I guess. And I think women look wierd with it.


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17 Aug 2012, 12:51 am

hansky wrote:
Some people in this forum were trying to justify their disapproval of woman's body hair by saying it's feminine to remove body hair. If you think hairy armpits are unattractive, you could just say it instead of trying to prove biology makes it unfeminine.

Can't argue with that. A simple, "*I* find it an unfeminine quality..." is all that's needed.

It's frustrating when one claims they have the right to speak for everyone (or their entire group, whomever they may be a part of, and that their opinion is the only possible correct one.



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17 Aug 2012, 12:58 am

hansky wrote:
BlueMax wrote:
hansky wrote:
Of course, it should be a woman's choice whether she wants to remove her body hair or not.

Just as it's also everyone else's choice whether or not they like it.


Some people in this forum were trying to justify their disapproval of woman's body hair by saying it's feminine to remove body hair. If you think hairy armpits are unattractive, you could just say it instead of trying to prove biology makes it unfeminine.

Exactly.



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17 Aug 2012, 2:19 am

BlueMax wrote:
hansky wrote:
Some people in this forum were trying to justify their disapproval of woman's body hair by saying it's feminine to remove body hair. If you think hairy armpits are unattractive, you could just say it instead of trying to prove biology makes it unfeminine.

Can't argue with that. A simple, "*I* find it an unfeminine quality..." is all that's needed.

It's frustrating when one claims they have the right to speak for everyone (or their entire group, whomever they may be a part of, and that their opinion is the only possible correct one.


Yes!


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17 Aug 2012, 3:48 am

hansky wrote:
Kurgan wrote:
hansky wrote:
OliveOilMom wrote:
hansky wrote:
Kurgan wrote:
hansky wrote:
I have the same opinion about body hair on women. It grows there naturally and it's a pain in the butt to remove it. The only reason it's considered unattractive to keep your body hair is because our society agrees that it is.


First of all, body hair is caused by androgens. Removing them will make a woman appear more feminine, but if a man shaves his beard, it does not make him more masculine.

Secondly, body hair on a woman is much less dense and grows slower than it would on a man, thus it's easier to remove.


First of all, a woman removing her body hair does not make her any more feminine than a man repressing his feelings makes him masculine.



It kinda does. Like it or not.


It does by our society's standards. I think gender norms are stupid.


So it's stupid for a woman to try to look like she has a more feminine hormonal balance? Hair removal in woman is no more stupid than toe nail clipping or showering.


Women do not remove their body hair to look like they have a feminine hormonal balance! I've said this already; it's just a modern standard of beauty.

Also, toe nail clipping and showering serve hygienic purposes while hair removal does not. I'm not dirty because I keep my body hair.


This beauty standard is no more modern than showering/bathing frequently, toe nail cutting or deodorants. If a cave man could choose between a woman with just vellus hairs in her ampit versus a woman with a large bush below her armpits, I'm sure he'd choose the former.

Most women still remove their body hair out of free will and most are well aware of the fact that hair is caused by androgens.

As far as the last paragraph goes: Someone who keeps their toe nails two inches long is dirty to you?



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17 Aug 2012, 4:59 am

I think it's unfeminine simply because to me hairy is masculine and not hairy is feminine. Now I understand that our bodies think differently because we grow leg and armpit hair.

Like I said, that's just me. It's got to be cultural because before there was a way to cut if off, it probably never occured to anybody.


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17 Aug 2012, 5:11 am

Kurgan wrote:

This beauty standard is no more modern than showering/bathing frequently, toe nail cutting or deodorants.


I don't know about toe nail cutting but I was under the impression that frequent bathing and deodorant was a relatively modern thing.



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17 Aug 2012, 7:43 am

Kurgan wrote:
hansky wrote:
Kurgan wrote:
hansky wrote:
OliveOilMom wrote:
hansky wrote:
Kurgan wrote:
hansky wrote:
I have the same opinion about body hair on women. It grows there naturally and it's a pain in the butt to remove it. The only reason it's considered unattractive to keep your body hair is because our society agrees that it is.


First of all, body hair is caused by androgens. Removing them will make a woman appear more feminine, but if a man shaves his beard, it does not make him more masculine.

Secondly, body hair on a woman is much less dense and grows slower than it would on a man, thus it's easier to remove.


First of all, a woman removing her body hair does not make her any more feminine than a man repressing his feelings makes him masculine.



It kinda does. Like it or not.


It does by our society's standards. I think gender norms are stupid.


So it's stupid for a woman to try to look like she has a more feminine hormonal balance? Hair removal in woman is no more stupid than toe nail clipping or showering.


Women do not remove their body hair to look like they have a feminine hormonal balance! I've said this already; it's just a modern standard of beauty.

Also, toe nail clipping and showering serve hygienic purposes while hair removal does not. I'm not dirty because I keep my body hair.


This beauty standard is no more modern than showering/bathing frequently, toe nail cutting or deodorants. If a cave man could choose between a woman with just vellus hairs in her ampit versus a woman with a large bush below her armpits, I'm sure he'd choose the former.

Most women still remove their body hair out of free will and most are well aware of the fact that hair is caused by androgens.

As far as the last paragraph goes: Someone who keeps their toe nails two inches long is dirty to you?


It is a modern beauty standard. Women started shaving their legs and armpits around the 1920s I believe, and removing pubic hair has only been around for like twenty years. You said earlier that Roman women removed their hair, and yes, there were cultures before this one that thought hairless women were beautiful. Things go in and out of style like that.

There is no way you can prove that cavemen preferred less body hair (also, there is a difference between naturally not having a lot of body hair and having no body hair because you remove it). Some men think body hair is gross, and some don't.

I suppose women do remove their body hair somewhat out of free will. Many choose to do it just so people won't make fun of them for being hairy.

Long nails are harder to keep clean. You get stuff stuck under them. I don't know who would grow out their toe nails that long, they wouldn't be able to wear shoes.