Shotokan Karate class

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Hi, i browse in these forums quite a lot, and was looking for some advice. About half a year ago i started attending a Shotokan Karate class. I quite liked it due to the formal nature of the class and a feeling of mutual respect among its members, plus our instructor always approached things seriously but with a sense of humour. Although the problem was that the class was made up of about 5 other people, 10 max, who were mostly black belts. the closest person grade-wise to me was a purple belt. This meant that we'd often practice really complicated kata's and was expected to take part in them, although i had no clue what i was doing lol. Quite a few techniques separate from kata's were very hard for me to do right as well, but they weren't so much a problem for me, but for the other person i was sparring with. Although there were times when an experienced person would step aside from the rest of the class and teach me some basic blocks and stuff, which was quite productive.

After a while i decided that i wasn't getting much out of the classes anymore due to these problems and left. Of late i've been thinking of going back, as its the only shotokan class in my area. Although i feel that if there no other beginners/semi-experinced people in the class i'll be holding the rest of them back, plus not being able to develop my skill properly from blindingly following advanced katas and such.

Has anyone else expereinced this problem, shotokan practitioner or not, and would it be advisable to return to the classes? I'm not sure if the classes will benefit me if a practice long enough, or if i should try another martial art/self defense system.

I was also wondering of anyone could recommend Shotokan karate as an real-life self-defence system, as its this aspect that motivated me to start?

Well, I've never done Shotokan Karate but it's probably effective self defence. Perhaps talking to the instructor about all this would be a good idea.

If you're mostly just doing katas it's not very good self defence. Did you get to do much sparring?

I did this style until brown belt, but left because it was so stiff and pointless. I took up kickboxing instead and for like the first year I was a useless fighter because shotokan training had me made rigid and taught me to do stupid things like stay still throwing stylized moves, leave my hand by my side when punching, etc. Took me a while to undo that.

I'd recommend a more 'live' style. Kickboxing is good, so is taekwondo. Does anyone teach either of those in your area?

Kickboxing if you need to be able to fight.

Katas- everyone is harsh on these, but they are great for doing relaxation and learning a kind of rigid grace, but the trick might be fitting the grace in between the rigidity. Like shifting from solid to a fluid state, finding your own space for understanding balance intuitively.

In kickboxing you get much more sparring and it might be semi contact. You might not have time in there to do the relax stuff because it is all skip, skip, punch bag, fight, fight.

I'm too old for kickboxing now, but it was good.

I'm a bit of a martial arts nut. I wouldn't have done it it wasn't for a shrink who suggested I find an outlet for pent up aggression. Certainly does the trick. However for many years I found it hard going, I was really apprehensive before going for years dispute having some fun too. I'm glad I stuck with it because I absolutely love it now.

Personally if all you are going is forms without begin shown the application, I wouldn't bother coming back. I think it is also really important to accommodate beginners, and most of remember what it is like the be a beginner. That is what I try to do. I would find a nicer club.

From inside knowledge traditional Karate can be thought in a "I hit you, you hit me" way. You might prefer something more fluid like Wing Chun, where it is always your turn. You would learn the forms along side the the application. Everything in the form is used. Another reason is there aren't that many "moves" to learn, you just apply them in countless different way. The main thing to master is how to have structure but also movement. I would describe Wing Chun as a moveable structure from with to simultaneously control and attack.

My coordination and proprioception when I started was shocking. I may not seem like it but it does improve.

I if you are only into Japanese styles for whatever reason (some people rubbish Gung Fu as a whole for some reason), I have heard good thing about Aikido. Not all flavours are passive but even if they are the knowledge that you get from it will still be useful. It also has fluidity, and good use of energy.

switch to krav maga. the simplest day one techniques can match any one

Funny you would say that, because in wing chun, relaxation is precisely how you generate power at short range and have sensitivity in order to react. Relaxation is instant if you have learnt it. It needs to be instant because you need to be able to turn the power on and of at will.

No martial art can prepare anyone for the randomness and unpredictability of real life, in one day. There are no set routines or set scenarios. Fighting is mainly about reactions, martial art just offer a way in which to react. However, if your reactions aren't up to anything day one it doesn't matter what techniques they teach you, you aren't going anywhere. Often you get worse before you get better. The thing about beginners is, no matter what you tell them you never know when they are going to do something totally random. So in a way they might have better chance to start with, not trying imitate, but just trying to defend themselves.

When people try to use techniques they have covered once or twice they well often fluff them and use them inappropriately, because they haven't really got any experience. Say someone goes to krav maga and learns about "bursting". They might think that looks pretty easy, I could do that. Then when someone confronts them they try bursting and it doesn't help them one bit, that is because they are not responding to the situation instructively, they are trying to execute technique that they barely know.

So like anything you are going to have to develop your overall ability in order to deal with whatever comes up. Otherwise you are using mock up to take on reality.

ok you obviously dont know what krav maga is, thats exactly what it trains you for. developed for the idf to train its army comprised of older men young men and women, its simple to learn and effective.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krav_Maga

I think you are right in what you are saying, thanks. I think i'll investigate Wing Chun, it looks interesting.



I was considering Krav Maga, but my cousin, who was into Shotokan, thought that i may as well stick to something such as Shotokan as he thinks its a bit of a "quick fix", and that it would make sense why it is taught to armies, as troops going into battle for example wouldn't have the time to master a complicated martial art. Would anyone agree with this?

Last edited by Jamie8675309 on 18 Mar 2010, 7:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

I'd be able to try both in my area, although I've already tried a San Shou class, which is to the best of my knowledge kick boxing. The best way i could describe it is a bit half-assed, for example we spent about 10 mins with a partner slapping each others arms out of the way. in general the moves didn't seem to have any strong foundation to them in comparision to Shotokan.

Uh yes I do. Had people of all backgrounds come through my club including people with extensive Krav Maga background. Firstly Krav Maga is in the same class as other mixed martial art combat training, it all depend what you manage to get out of it.

If I didn't know anything about it I wouldn't have mentioned any of their concepts. Your were talking about day one techniques this is too unrealistic. It is unrealistic even after a couple of months.

You sort have got it in one, because this is the problem faced when training armies, it is also the numbers that make it difficult.

Though Krav Maga is less of a quick fix than some others, it has more all-round skills which means it will take longer to master but will be more useful. But like I say it is MMA. The majority of police and combat training is focused heavily on "compliance" and set procedures, and it is mostly derived from jujitsu. Jujitsu is great stuff, thought the stuff taught to police and ordinary soldiers, isn't flowing or natural. The moves are taught very much in isolation, because like you say they don't have time to develop it.

One of the things about Wing Chun, especially in my linage is it is not all about grading. There are only four grades excluding starter (five colours if you subscribe to that system). You are going to be learning all sorts of things that are not necessarily related to you next grading, but maybe the next or the next but you will likely be applying before that. it is development, so you need to be introduced to these concept early on. One of the reason why some clubs will be grading people constantly, is because grades are another way of generating income.

There is an important distinction between overall ability and grade. Grade in Wing Chun means you have master certain aspect, and you are able to maintain. Black means something different; it means you are an instructor. After that there are no grades or dans, it is your own development. Teaching wise as soon as you have knowledge you can confidently pass on you will be expected to teach what you know to people who are less experienced, under the instructor(s) supervision.

As for the quickness of learning, there is various way of looking at it. In the 50s the Triad was attracted to it because they knew that in four years or so, their members would be ok. Chinese martial arts can take twenty years before you are even effectively sparring, so Wing Chun is a bit different in that respect, but it still take time to get the benefit. Similarly the police were impressed with it after Ip Man demonstrated it to them when he was an inspector.

This was the heyday of organised street fighting (although the majority of them were comparably friendly bouts with little to do with organised crime). This is this culture where Bruce Lee emerged, and Ip Man taught him among others. So yes Wing Chun can be relatively quick to learn the basics, but it take years to become really good. But I think that is true of any style. There are no quick fixes.

I'm not really sure of the quality of Wing Chun in NI, but here is guide to clubs:
http://www.wingchun.org/txt/schools/misc/nireland.html

I did have a look at the Northern Ireland Wing Chun Kung Fu Association website I was a concerned about talk of "animal forms" and using "nunchuka" which are not to do with Wing Chun. The way they were doing to forms were a bit iffy to say the least in terms of application (the have very high use of the arms which doesn’t protect the midsection). Personally this sets off alarm bells for me so I would avoid.

I would also be wary of anyone who claims to have trained with Bruce Lee. Whilst it is perfectly possible, that doesn’t automatically make them amazing. Bruce Lee himself only did the open handed form and dummy. Even an old Sufu that abandoned us claimed to be best buddies with Bruce Lee. Try not to get sucked in with the BS politics, and commercial interests that you are initiatively find in martial arts. Just learn it for the knowledge, health and other personal reasons. I happen to have two good Sifus, that don’t mind feedback and don’t see themselves as the be and end all.

You may have to make do in NI, but certainly shop around. You want somewhere where you are regually applying the theory. Not just drills and forms. But on the other hand it should not omit them either. You should be shown what a section of the form or a drill means in terms of application.

Go along to different ones and get a feel for them, speak to the instructors, have you seen san shou on youtube, its great,.
To me, its about the instructor and how they teach, the ones mentioned above are treid and tested, some are money spinners,

Its personel choice, which ever you do enjoy it, that way you'll learn more.

Actually, IF you were to study these in the truely traditional (as in original way) then it is in fact the katas that contain the essence of self defence. The typical sparring is in fact a lot less useful as all that does is cover fighting against other karate users and therefore is of more useful in competition and stylised fights. Unfortunately 99.9% of people do not do this properly and a beginner is in no position to extract the fighting meaning out of the katas themselves although in the hands of an experienced person this could be extracted and given to a beginner effectively.
Unfortunately the way styles are taught this is seldom the case. Styles that I know of that build this approach into basic training for stand up fighting from the beginning is Wing Chun as well as SOME 7* Mantis and Bagua schools.

Throwing and ground fighting styles like Judo and Brazillian Jujutsu do also take a more basic fighting approach but these often neglect the forms/katas so trades short term gain for a bit of a loss of long term potential. I believe krav maga and Arnis also does if I am not mistaken but I do not have first hand knowledge. Certainly the Arnis-derived based knife fighting I did had that approach.


Of course the hand by the side would be pointless in a kickboxing fight as you would not be allowed to apply its true meaning in such a sport fight. To make matters worse is that most people do not realise the true meaning of the hand at the side is. The correct usage is that just about every karate move is accompanied by a grab and pull on the opponent that unbalances him and places him in a predictable position. Master Funakoshi repeatedly admonished the students of karate to remember that these grappling and throwing techniques were in the katas and that their practice should not be neglected. Unfortunately there were various reasons why the more brutal fighting nature of the martial arts were de-emphasised after WW2 and this is exactly when "modern" karate developed.

*I still have fond memories of my varsity days when I started combining Shotokan style techniques with Aikido evasiveness during sport karate matches. The surprised looks on opponents faces when from their perspective you magically end up behind them and hit them in the back are priceless memories.

If all you are doing is kicking and punching then yes, kickboxing is preferred. Without the tools to unlock the katas they will not be understood.

OK, so how come I am mouthing off on this topic? My background:
Started karate when I was 6 years old following family tradition (Father trained in Karate, Judo and JiuJutsu).
Did Shotokan karate and 2 other closely related styles for MANY years (School years).
Have also done Goju (@varsity) and Shorin styles.
In addition I have some past background in Judo, Aikido and 7* Mantis.
I have found my martial home in the combination of Wado Ryu karate, Brazillian Jujutsu and Ba gua.
Still I am not overly concerned with "Style" considerations and rather flow with the application of principles.
Bit of a special interest this you could say...

If you are interested, signup for a newsletter here: http://www.iainabernethy.com/Joinnewsletter.htm and you will receive some introductory ebooks on the topic. These are especially nice for those in the karate traditions but without the wider exposure from other martial arts to have seen the links before.



Just some warnings:
Not all "traditional"/sport karate practitioners agree to this approach.
The early karate students were expected to already have some judo or okinawan wrestling background (PS read Funakoshi's autobiography if you have the chance) so don't expect to find a COMPLETE grappling throwing system here but it is a lot more than people generally realise.