women, testosterone and femininity

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They'd look slightly more masculine with armpit hair. It increases the drag coefficient, though.

they look manly enough to me

They look masculine because of a decent amount of muscle mass and a v-shaped torso--armpit hair removal does not make them more masculine.

Anyway, as far as my opinion on females and hair and testosterone levels. I pretty much don't care. Hell, even that East German swimmer I posted doesn't look too bad to me. Besides extreme cases where the girl is like...a gorilla, whatever, it pretty much doesn't matter. I mean my dating pool is already small, so for me to be like "oh no she has slightly too much hair" would make it smaller even more. So it depends. I could have all my opinions on how the perfect girl would be, but then real life comes. Basically, "I'll know it when I see it." But I don't think it'd be prudent of me to exclude tons of women from dating me if they possibly are a bit hairier than I'd like but otherwise look and act fine. It's a compromise I'd be able to live with.

As far as testosterone and women's personality, well, testosterone affects women like men. Some men with high testosterone are super nice (ie, some people get nicer when they're on steroids) and some men with high testosterone are huge jerkfaces. So I'm assuming it'd work the same with women, the hormones pretty much just amplify however you are intellectually and emotionally. To a point, not that I have a syringe with me and go around sticking girls to check their hormone levels (which is the only way you'd really know for sure) I feel a girl with higher testosterone could get along better with me. They might be more logical thinkers, and not think with their feelings. Or maybe not. Who knows.

So, we're now equivocating "feminine" and "willing to conform to popular hair removal practices"?
You'd think the most "feminine" aesthetic would be one freer of artifice, since that's the one evolution has selected for.

Last edited by ValentineWiggin on 22 Aug 2012, 8:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

FML.

Why couldn't I just be a man?

I've just thought. I grow a lot of body hair and hair on my face, but my facial features and body shape are very feminine. Does that mean I have high levels of both hormones?

i think there are many different possibilities, puddingmouse. i.e. high estrogen during puberty and high levels of circulating free testosterone now, or your physique could be hereditary and your facial hair could be influenced by hormones. it's hard to say. usually, our bodies work to keep the hormones in balance to a certain degree (though the ratio shifts over the course of each month).

have you ever been tested for PCOS, or do you tend towards frequent cysts? that would explain your symptoms.

So basically, being "feminine" is equivocated with hair removal. I second those people asking about male swimmers.



You don't know me in person, which is why you shouldn't make these "concrete" judgements on what is beautiful vs. what is not. Because you described anyone who is not feminine by your standard (aka someone who is naturally hairy with masculine features) to be inherently ugly according to you. There are two possible responses to this: either I consider myself to be "ugly" and try to "feminize" myself to my own dissatisfaction, or you get over yourself and your silly standards. I vote the later option.



The general population is too dumb to differentiate though. It still doesn't keep people from making judgements when someone does not look feminine in general, even if it's not as extreme as in the case of steroids.



It does when there are masculinity/femininity biases drawn to the color, especially one like pink. I don't know about you, but here in america, some guys absolutely refuse to wear pink or purple either one because they view it to be feminine. Also, when I became pregnant, I instantly became open to wearing the color, whereas I disliked it and no pull toward it prior. Explain that.



Coming from the person who said that a person only needs a tiny tiny tiny (did I mention tiny?) bit of hormones to have a sex drive (you seemed to go nuts attempting to debunk any more), you seem pretty intimidated by the notion of someone outside of your narrow scope. I've heard time and time again about how testosterone is linked to the sex drive, from many sources. So why do you keep balking if it's true? Do you feel like it threatens your masculinity?



SOURCES? (I can't wait to see this based on other "studies" that you link). And don't forget their sample diversity either on where they got these people too.



LOL you've never seen my bikini region (nor will you ever). Have you ever shaved a woman's knees? How about their bikini area? I don't think you know what you're talking about. You have to be very careful around the knee caps and the backs of knees because that's the prime #1 place to nick one'self with shaving legs (not to mention the sheer surface area, as my legs are the bulk of my figure). And bikini region? Boy, please. No way in hell is shaving a chest the same as shaving around a delicate labia, vulva, and all of those other delicate goods. A chest would only be the same if you were obese, lost 100+ lbs to have enough folds to make up for it that you'd have to handle and fold over and manipulate in one hand with the razor in the other, and you magically only if it had the same amount of nerve endings there in case you nicked yourself (let me give you a hint: it hurts BAD, because there are a ton of nerve endings there). I suppose it'd be the same if you shaved your privates, balls included and you nicked yourself. Not to mention if you did mess up shaving as a woman, you'd be sitting on your pain no matter what. And sometimes it's easy to miss hairs. I mean, hell, there are tons of nooks and crannies there and weird angles that are necessary to get the job done.



And I care about the stone age why? We're not living in the stone age. Welcome to now.


And you're assuming that just because a man is not gay that he would answer that survey, no matter what his age or relationship status was, or no matter where they located him (which would imply sample bias, as they had to get their men from somewhere).



LOL! There are people who do not look like extreme dysmorphic clowns like Pam Anderson who have obviously had work done. You must not be aware of it enough for you to pick up on it. And you're assuming that it's high estrogen instead of various hair removal methods and other unnatural practices. I doubt they take their estrogen levels since you just assuming that they have high estrogen? Here lies the problem. That, and I checked the list. It's the same old list of celebrity women, people who have boob jobs, people who get botox, people with a ton of hi-def pore-clogging makeup (which people discern people with makeup on to look more feminine anyway regardless so your point is further moot), people who get a heavy dosage of photoshop on top of that. Thereby you don't have realistic standards of a natural woman, and If I was terrible I would ask you if you're in a relationship since you can't seem to hold ordinary women to an achievable standard. Since your average woman, regardless of her initial hormonal makeup, cannot afford breast implants, photo facials, microderm abrasions, eventually has to take her makeup off (:lol: she might end up looking "masculine" to you as a result!), her hair eventually grows back in before she gets re-waxed ( Doubly more "masculine!"), most women have cellulite and stretch marks (even if they're tiny built like me, I believe the american statistic is 85%, not sure about where you live, and yes I have it too), and it is physically impossible to go out in everyday life being layered in 20 hours of work in photoshop on top of that.

No PCOS or cysts.

Being feminine is having a high estrogen level and a low testosterone level. Looking feminine is looking like you have a high estrogen level and a low testosterone level.



Given that men at any point in history rates feminine women as the most attractive, I'm free to make as many claims as I want to.



Like I said, I don't know you in person and I've never forced you to choose between these two options. The decision is yours to make, but I'm free to say that not all women are equally feminine and not all men are equally masculine.



Not wanting to date someone is not the same as making judgements.



Yes, but this is socially constructed.



Depends on the circumstances. I don't wear pink because the color does not suit me, just like brown. orange or bright yellow does not suit me. I wouldn't mind driving a pink Cadillac, though.



I can't explain that. This does not automatically mean that the hormones caused it, though.



Testosterone increases sex drive, but it's not the only thing that does. A woman can still have minimal testosterone levels and have a sex drive.



http://www.klikk.no/produkthjemmesider/ ... 777941.ece



No, but I've seen how little hair a woman has on her knees after not shaving for a few weeks.



Very few men expect your crotch to be clean shaven.




I don't care about stretch marks as long as they're not too extreme; after all, they're not caused by excess male hormones. I have stretch marks on my arms, my pecs and my shoulders from weight lifting and no women are bothered by that either.

Photoshop doesn't work in real life and I see plenty of beautiful girls at my gym--and they've all got clean shaved armpits.

Armpits and legs are very different things. I'd like it if more men shaved their pits.
Katherine Hepburn ('the most beautiful woman alive' when she was young' and still pretty beautiful when she was older), based on photos, shaved her armpits but not her legs.

I'm done arguing with Kurgan and his vain expectations, bs research, and his narrow circular arguments that he tends to infect various threads with.

LOL! at the notion of unhappy marriages being caused by people "settling" for people who are not feminine or vain enough (my definition of someone "settling" is if they settle for a jerk who won't treat them right). I think many relationships fail for a bunch of reasons, mainly on expectations of a person to change when they have expectations of a person to be something they're not, bad communication, and things of that sort. A good relationship (marriage or not), people will cultivate the best in each other for growth in a bunch of different ways. A person will do more to please that person if they have feelings for them, and especially if the feelings between the two are mutual (as well as finding that they like something for themselves). I would know this being that I've been in the same relationship for 11 years.

p.s. what about armpit hair? I shave mine too (as well as I remove the socially unacceptable facial hair). And the point is? Hair removal methods have come a long long way in history. That and not all men are into the same type of thing or even have the same standards, despite whatever anyone says (doubly so on the spectrum where we're all so different). I refuse to box myself in like that. And I'm happier for it.

What exactly is BS research? For a woman to have a man's level of body hairs, she also needs his androgen levels.



I never said it was the exclusive reason. Many insecure guys settle for less attractive women out of fear of being alone, stigma of being inexperienced/single etc.

I once "settled" for a girl when I was younger and had never had a serious relationship. It didn't result in a happy ending.



Good for you, then.



Not everyone has the same standards, but everyone has similar standards. I remember back in high school when the girls labeled as "the ugly ones" by both genders had very masculine features.

I am someone who is known to produce high levels of testosterone and I do not think I am any more hairy than most females. I shave in the typical places and trim in others as I was taught that hair on ladies was not considered attractive. Now I have been doing this practice for so many years now it is routine to me. I have also got used to being hairless in some areas of my body. I remember suffering from the flu a good couple of years ago to the point where I was totally bedridden for about 5 days and had to be looked after. In that time my hair grew back and at the end of these five days, being able to rid myself of it was a relief as I found having the hair uncomfortable and itchy.

However much I dislike the society that is still dominated by male ideals, one has to admit that there are those out there that equally dislike overly hairy males, myself being one of them. I don't like it initially, but if that person had what I consider to be the most amazing personality ever and I couldn't live without them, then his body hair (excess or lack of) would be totally overlooked. I think what we have to keep in mind here is that it really doesn't matter. Personality matters far more than appearance. If I was given the option to date a hairy but wonderful guy or a less hairy guy who treated me badly, I would opt for the former. If I opted for the latter, I would be settling for an idiot and would deserve everything I got quite frankly as I would be valuing appearance over substance.

Normal women do not have the level of body hair of men of their own race, regardless of whether they shave.


ORLY?

Orlando Bloom is pretty fine as either gender.
below: boy or girl?



[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdKSG0Xshcs[/youtube]