Shotokan Karate class

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Chi Sao is something quite unique it offers a way to fully bridge the gap between forms, and theoretical drills to more spontaneous fighting. Because there are no set combinations, and you can think about it, you need to be instinctively reacting.

In fairness I think Arnis can have something in the way of partially bridging that gap. Like the give and take aspect. It could be a bit attack, defend, attack defend, etc. However I guess it really depends on how it is taught. In Wing Chun you are taught it is always you “turn”, but if you didn’t give your training partner a chance during Chi Sao, they wouldn’t benefit and neither would you. that is the idea of Chi Sao it is a completely variable concept, and there are many sub-disciplines like Poon Sao and Fan Sao, and it is the versatility of the training method that carries to right up to full combat. Chi Sao is a training method but it exists in real fighting if you know what you are looking at. Chi Sao is the basis from which Fan Sao bursts out of. Fan Sao, is where you want to be so naturally you are not going to want to hang around playing ball. Most of what is taught in Wing Chun can be directly derived from Chi Sao practice, so naturally you will be learning new things all the time.



This is why I like Wing Chun the simultaneous control and attack.


Good footwork can make an average fighter into a good fighter, especially if you get to the stage where you are not thinking about it. I end up behind my attacker a lot of the time, and the centreline is like a compass to their centre. However it is often them doing most of the moving. Aikido footwork is not exactly like Wing Chun but there are similarities. The main similarity between the two is the concurrent motion and flow. The big differences are transitions where Aikio would have their back to the person. People talk about “blocks” in Wing Chun, but in my view there are none, because no interception is so indestructible that can just stand your ground, you need to be able move. The main point of interception is knowing where things are, their structure and controlling it.

What WC provides is a constant structure that you can move well. It is like a platform from which to control and attack. The overall structure is consistent whether you are in a neutral stance or advancing. If you are doing lot of committal moves, then you would need to practice lots of transitions to different structures in order to get out o compromising situations. People talk of the “mirror” and “dominant” stances but there are meaningless terms because you face them anyway, you will learn how to do that in a stable way from different orientations of the feet. Mirror is especially meaningless because it implies people just face one another and stay put.

Kicking is also the same not a special case, as you should be able to strike and control with the hands and kick at the same time. We don’t side kick but we do kick with the side of the foot. Yes many people do turn round and learn backwards but that is their prerogative. People get confused about turning kick is for, there is no mystery. Your opponent doesn’t want to get kicked so it is likely they will try and move out of the way. Turning kick is just a front kick (despite many alternative interpretations), you are just changing the line of attack mid kick so it hits them. Of course you will need to practice this first before you can do it as a matter of course. If you know they are going to move each time, and where they are going, you aren’t practicing it fully.

Yes there is transitioning in Wing Chun, and there is also ground fighting. Wing Chun can be applied to ground fighting, it was into its original form and especially since the 80s has improved greatly. But transitioning due to over-committal or indirectness, is something we strive to avoid.

What it offers to ground fighting is more barrage of pain and control flow using WC principles, rather than just simply focusing on single submissions. Pains really help you out of trick situations like little else. I think what Wing Chun is really good at is exploiting mid-transition. Sometime it is best to keep the person there if you are capitalising on it. You can do this without having to carry their weight is some cases, obviously you can’t predict everything that is going to happen. It is really just a natural extension of ruining you opponent structure like you mentioned. The fact that they may offer that to you is a bonus.

I think styles of grappling that interface will with Wing Chun are those that are not stop/start. Also there is a tendency for people to get into the mentality of doing strikes and lock separately. You can do strikes and locks mixed together.


But arguably the teacher should have provided this.

Unfortunately in karate a lot of this was not provided for a number of possible reasons. One of which is that at the time of karate becoming popular there was a tendency to move away from the more combat aspects of the martial arts to viewing it as a spiritual activity. Sort of like archery in Japan became all spiritualised rather than focused on combat effectiveness.
There was also a need to distance karate from some other fighting systems that had become associated with gangs and street violence but this did mean that similarities had to be downplayed - leading to the street fighting aspects being neglected.

All this is very informative

Thank you 0 equals true for the list of clubs. Would like to ask something; the closest class to me is a variant of Wing Chung called Chum Sut Wing Tzun, says its relatively new, have you or anyone else got an opinion on it?

Something that i also should have added in the first post was that my freind who attended Shotokan with me originally said i had difficulty getting moves right as i tried to copy everything the instructor was doing exactly, rather than letting my intuition partly dictate how i done moves, eg when i was taught to do overhead blocks i didn't realise that i wasn't effectively directing the punch over my head, as i was focused on getting the move precisely right. Same with everything else apparently. He thinks that its my aspergers that contributes to this, as apparently you need a degree of empathy when sparring. Would anyone agree with this?

makes sense why my kickboxer freind said i looked like a robot when demonstrating Shotokan lol

I don't think you need empathy, you just need fast reactions

You should probably just focus on the function of the movement rather than exact details. Instead of worrying about whether the move is exactly right, focus on whether it directs the other fighter's punch over your head. That should fix the problem for you.

The 'robot' problem is a common one for Shotokanistas, ASD or otherwise. I was very robotic when I switched to kickboxing, but I'm better with my movements now.

A useful book, especially if you stay with shotokan is Dynamic Karate
http://www.karatethejapaneseway.com/books/dynamic_karate.html
I found this book very useful in my earlier years.

It is said that Aspies have difficulty learning skills from others through copying movements.

The above mentioned book will help you understand the underlying dynamics of the moves rather than trying to copy another persons actions. Just remember that the apparent surface applications you are being taught are fine for developing the body memory of the moves but that you will need to move beyond these eventually to understand their true realworld applications.

For example, that rising block is most safely practiced as a block but in a close-in self defence fight that will be an attack (notice how many "blocks" in the katas are terminal techniques that are not followed by a strike. That's because the apparent block is in fact the strike and that big, timewasting "windup" for the block is in fact the interception of the incoming attack). For now though don't worry about that. When you are brown belt you can start looking at those types of things.

Of course, if you are more concerned with a way to defend yourself next week Tuesday then you need to look somewhere else with a more immediate fighting focus. In that sense I think Wing Chun would be good. I personally prefer Pa kua but that also has a longer learning curve with some seeing it as a graduate martial art best learnt after you have a good grounding in another art.

This also is true and has a lot to do with how it is trained, together with the influence that Kendo had on its development after it moved to Japan. If possible you should really try one of the okinawan styles.

hmm it is really hard for me to give an informed judgement over the internet. Website says it it is created by guy in NI quite recently. They don't really give useful information as to what they do but by all accounts it is MMA with an element of Wing Chun. I think based on the video it requires quite a bit of physical strength. Also there is no mention of forms at all. I don't know if this is because they doesn't rate them or hey doesn't think it is worth mentioning. There is also a strong emphasis on MMA competition, rather than general defence. If I were going in this direction I would be doing more Jeet Kune Do, there is more in there for people of different shapes and sizes and has a strong basis in Wing Chun. Though personally if it was me I would learn something with some history like Ip Man linage. Ip Man when he brought Wing Chun to Hong he already made it easier to learn. The guy was just a normal build, but could fight really well. His two sons are in their 80s and both fight well, and one has ME.

To use a tennis analogy it is a bit like if you prefer Feder or Nedal. Nedal is very powerful, but the way he plays takes its toll on his body. He has already picked up a knee injury which is going to plight the rest of his career. Federer is more efficient, he doesn't have to expend as much energy to achieve the same thing, and he is an intelligent player. He doesn’t get these problems, only things like gastric flu. Anyway it is up to you, you might want to check it out see what it is about. You can always learn more styles later; you can be more informed knowing what they are about. It is quite common for people to come up with their own system and then market it. But Like JadedMantis pointed out there is no perfect style, but the knowledge that you pick up will help you.

Where about are you living roughly?



Empathy can get in the way if you need to stop someone assaulting you. You can just use your intuition. However that can mean you moves are boundless and easily exploitable, whereas if you develop some muscle memory, you can make these more accurate moves instinctively. That is what Chi Sao helps you with, getting you of the robotic way of thinking, which is common to all beginners. I tutor beginners, believe me some have terrible coordination, but I can’t say it was worse than mine when I started. It is actually quite rare you see someone who is naturally very coordinated, they is one guy just joined. who is like that. That doesn’t mean he gets it right each time, though.

Thanks for the book recommendation A style with more "immediate fighting focus" is actually a good definition of what i'm looking for atm, all the more reason to try Wing Chung! Thanks for the info

Im in Bangor, and the next closest club would be the wing chung federation. Im not really looking to compete in MMA events and stuff, plus i'd like to learn something with "more history" like you say, but i might go and observe a class and see if it looks worth doing. When you say going in that general direction, do you mean practice for events?

btw, really appreciate all the info your sharing . Although i'll have to look around a lot more to find any potential Wing Chun classes, atm it looks like it mite not be an option. I saw a Jeet Kune Do class in Belfast, it may be hard to get to but i need to find out.

I would go to each of them see which one you prefer.

No I was referring to the multiple backgrounds aspect.

I was looking through this thread with quite a bit of interest. One question I have is, is it possible to learn from a book(s) if you haven't much money for an instructor?
I have some experiance with Taeqwondo (got to Red Belt level) but I would like to learn more, and specialize in one weapon. That weapon would be the bo (or actually jo, as I am not that tall), and it is hugely impractical to carry around a sword or nun-chucks. But you can bring the bo almost everywhere without raising a few eyebrows, as to other people it would just be a simple walking-stick (which it would actually be, the rest of the time.)

No. Books and dvds are supplementary, you can't learn without proper instruction.

Nuts. It's hard to find an instructor that doesn't go under $130 a month.

How many lessons is that for? My club charges £36 for 4 lessons which is around $80, and £45 for 5-8 lessons, or you can pay £12 per lesson. They don't do it for money.

One of the reasons why some clubs/systems have a lot of grades, is to generate more money.

I would very much disagree with the stance that Jujitsu isn't flowing. 'Natural' is quite subjective to the viewer, so I'll leave that aside. But from my experience (2 years Muay Thai, 2 years Jujitsu) Jujitsu is very much a fluid martial art.

You didn't read what I said.