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ValentineWiggin
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14 Aug 2012, 2:23 pm

Cherry_Blossom wrote:
People are designed to eat a variety of foods, primarily plant-based. If you eat a well balanced meal, your tummy will be nice and full, and you will not have overeaten.

If you eat a diet that consists primarily of cheap, high calorie, carb-laden foods, you will still fill your tummy, but now it is unbalanced.

Unhealthy foods are cheap: Ramen noodles, pasta, white bread, taco bell, McDonald's, etc.

Healthy foods are expensive: a salad at panera, fruits and vegetables, lean meats and meat substitutes, whole grain bread, a salad at a restaurant


It's true- high-carb meals spike your glucose like a gunshot, storing the vast majority of calories immediately, and then you're back to being hungry again.

I read a study recently which found refined sugar is more addictive than cocaine.

If I can spend $5 for five burgers off the dollar menu, or $5 for a postage-stamp sized bag of salad, gee- I wonder which one I'll choose, if I'm poor.


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14 Aug 2012, 2:51 pm

I've read topics like this before in different places and before reading this I'll post what I've read and thought.

Unhealthy food is cheaper than healthy food.

Unhealthy food is more likely to be ready to eat while healthy food is more likely to require more time and knowledge to prepare.

If you live in the city and don't drive your nearest grocery store might be hard to get to.

They may have less education about diet and exercise.

Unhealthy cheap food may taste better than healthy food and be more filling for the same price.



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14 Aug 2012, 3:58 pm

Actually I thought the poor be thin because they wouldn't be able to eat all the time nor be able to eat three meals a day. So they would have to eat less than the middle class or high class. So what would they be doing buying luxury foods and snacking on them? If I were poor, I'd be only eat what I need to eat and not eat in between and only eat like one thing for each meal. I eat like I am poor anyway. Also why would they be going to fast food? That is more expensive than eating at home if they did it everyday or most days.


But unhealthy food is cheaper than healthy food. So they be buying boxed pasta or canned foods. Canned foods is less healthy than fresh fruit and veggies.


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ValentineWiggin
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14 Aug 2012, 4:27 pm

League_Girl wrote:
Actually I thought the poor be thin because they wouldn't be able to eat all the time nor be able to eat three meals a day. So they would have to eat less than the middle class or high class. So what would they be doing buying luxury foods and snacking on them? If I were poor, I'd be only eat what I need to eat and not eat in between and only eat like one thing for each meal. I eat like I am poor anyway. Also why would they be going to fast food? That is more expensive than eating at home if they did it everyday or most days.


But unhealthy food is cheaper than healthy food. So they be buying boxed pasta or canned foods. Canned foods is less healthy than fresh fruit and veggies.


Not being able to eat three meals a day means you're absolutely ravenous when you do get to eat, which can lead to overeating.
"One thing" can still be a heap of calories- some fast food items are nearly 2,000, by themselves.
Fast food and convenience stores have a lower opportunity cost from a time, effort and financial viewpoint, generally.


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They talk and vote as they are directed by Some Man of Property, who has attached their Minds
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Kurgan
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14 Aug 2012, 4:44 pm

ValentineWiggin wrote:
Cherry_Blossom wrote:
People are designed to eat a variety of foods, primarily plant-based. If you eat a well balanced meal, your tummy will be nice and full, and you will not have overeaten.

If you eat a diet that consists primarily of cheap, high calorie, carb-laden foods, you will still fill your tummy, but now it is unbalanced.

Unhealthy foods are cheap: Ramen noodles, pasta, white bread, taco bell, McDonald's, etc.

Healthy foods are expensive: a salad at panera, fruits and vegetables, lean meats and meat substitutes, whole grain bread, a salad at a restaurant


It's true- high-carb meals spike your glucose like a gunshot, storing the vast majority of calories immediately, and then you're back to being hungry again.

I read a study recently which found refined sugar is more addictive than cocaine.

If I can spend $5 for five burgers off the dollar menu, or $5 for a postage-stamp sized bag of salad, gee- I wonder which one I'll choose, if I'm poor.


The very same five dollars will give you five cans of tuna and a package of Dole salad is roughly 3 dollars. 12 eggs can be found for as low as 1.40 $.

The stuff on addiction to sugar is extremely exaggerated; people are merely looking for excuses to eat unhealthy food.

http://www.preparedfoods.com/articles/s ... n-debunked
http://www.eatingdisordersblogs.com/nut ... _420766754

On topic: The very same lack of dicipline that prevented most poor Americans from getting an education also prevents them from eating healthy.



1000Knives
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14 Aug 2012, 5:50 pm

I've got some insight into this. There's a Bible verse that's like "For lack of knowledge, my people perish." And I think that's the main situation with the poor in this country on a whole. Partially it's drive, and to a point, drive can explain lack of knowledge, but for many people, it's just lack of knowledge.

The main problem in this country is we just do not cook anymore. It's been lost over a generation, because processed food is part of the culture now. My mother didn't know how to cook, because her mother was on welfare and alimony, and mostly bought frozen dinners and the like. So she just never learned. My father's family was equally low income, and my dad lived in "the hood" so to speak for most of his life, but he had two parents in the house, I think having two parents in the house is kind of a big factor. But in my father's case, both his parents came from relatively recent immigrant families, Polish and Italian, so obviously Italians tend to be pretty decent cooks, and yeah. So my dad knew how to cook from learning from his parents, mostly his mother, but my mother didn't have the role models teaching in her life, and she never learned.

But I think it's mainly lack of cooking food from scratch that's the problem. People get locked into this cycle, because cooking's become like some lost art. Everyone thinks I'm like an amazing cook, just because I can cook like, at all, whereas 40-50 years ago, people would think I suck. I really feel like cooking now is almost an esoteric thing. It's bizarre and sad.

If you cook food yourself, it's quite cheap. All the staples are still really cheap, rice is like 50c a pound, brown rice around a dollar, dried beans about a dollar, meat if you buy boney cuts, like a dollar a pound, and vegetables for the most part aren't much more than a dollar a pound, sometimes they're less. I have an Indian friend, his entire family's budget for Indian food per month is about $90, they do buy soda/bagels/etc for "fun" but their main food is Indian food. An entire family eating on $90 a month (they're vegetarians, too, though), and it possibly includes his mother's catering business.

One valid point is transportation, it is right many cities do not have good supermarkets, and people are forced to buy crappy food from corner stores/etc. That's a bit more understandable, but there's lack of knowledge and motivation there, too. If people really WANTED to eat healthy, they could easily bum a ride from a friend or something and get to where they need to get healthy food, but many times people just don't care. People are willing to travel, to, say, buy a flatscreen TV, or Playstation, but not food.

http://web.archive.org/web/200904012341 ... ge0001.htm
I could go on, but that article about sums up the problem. He's a bit insensitive about it, but yes. That article there explains everything.

Quote:
But now, with the rising costs of food, energy, packaging, etc., food has become a major budget outlay. Therefore, it is becoming more practical to buy in bulk and process one's own food. But since Granny baked bread weekly, made sausages in the fall, had a kitchen garden even in the city, and distrusted canned foods, people have suffered a kind of cultural amnesia concerning food.

About sums it up. Cultural amnesia.



ValentineWiggin
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14 Aug 2012, 11:03 pm

Kurgan wrote:
ValentineWiggin wrote:
Cherry_Blossom wrote:
People are designed to eat a variety of foods, primarily plant-based. If you eat a well balanced meal, your tummy will be nice and full, and you will not have overeaten.

If you eat a diet that consists primarily of cheap, high calorie, carb-laden foods, you will still fill your tummy, but now it is unbalanced.

Unhealthy foods are cheap: Ramen noodles, pasta, white bread, taco bell, McDonald's, etc.

Healthy foods are expensive: a salad at panera, fruits and vegetables, lean meats and meat substitutes, whole grain bread, a salad at a restaurant


It's true- high-carb meals spike your glucose like a gunshot, storing the vast majority of calories immediately, and then you're back to being hungry again.

I read a study recently which found refined sugar is more addictive than cocaine.

If I can spend $5 for five burgers off the dollar menu, or $5 for a postage-stamp sized bag of salad, gee- I wonder which one I'll choose, if I'm poor.


The very same five dollars will give you five cans of tuna and a package of Dole salad is roughly 3 dollars. 12 eggs can be found for as low as 1.40 $.

The stuff on addiction to sugar is extremely exaggerated; people are merely looking for excuses to eat unhealthy food.

http://www.preparedfoods.com/articles/s ... n-debunked
http://www.eatingdisordersblogs.com/nut ... _420766754

On topic: The very same lack of dicipline that prevented most poor Americans from getting an education also prevents them from eating healthy.


Oh, my bad- so three dollar menu burgers or a bag of salad or five cans of tuna- wow, hard choice.
Not.
People don't need any "excuse" for the food they eat- to you, or anyone else.
It's none of your business.
I was just mentioning a study I read.

Sure, sure. Poor people are fat because they "lack discipline". Kurgan knows better than every study ever done on the relationship between socioeconomics and food accessibility. :roll:


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of the human Heart, that very few Men, who have no Property, have any Judgment of their own.
They talk and vote as they are directed by Some Man of Property, who has attached their Minds
to his Interest."


ValentineWiggin
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14 Aug 2012, 11:05 pm

1000Knives wrote:
I've got some insight into this. There's a Bible verse that's like "For lack of knowledge, my people perish." And I think that's the main situation with the poor in this country on a whole. Partially it's drive, and to a point, drive can explain lack of knowledge, but for many people, it's just lack of knowledge.

The main problem in this country is we just do not cook anymore. It's been lost over a generation, because processed food is part of the culture now. My mother didn't know how to cook, because her mother was on welfare and alimony, and mostly bought frozen dinners and the like. So she just never learned. My father's family was equally low income, and my dad lived in "the hood" so to speak for most of his life, but he had two parents in the house, I think having two parents in the house is kind of a big factor. But in my father's case, both his parents came from relatively recent immigrant families, Polish and Italian, so obviously Italians tend to be pretty decent cooks, and yeah. So my dad knew how to cook from learning from his parents, mostly his mother, but my mother didn't have the role models teaching in her life, and she never learned.

But I think it's mainly lack of cooking food from scratch that's the problem. People get locked into this cycle, because cooking's become like some lost art. Everyone thinks I'm like an amazing cook, just because I can cook like, at all, whereas 40-50 years ago, people would think I suck. I really feel like cooking now is almost an esoteric thing. It's bizarre and sad.

If you cook food yourself, it's quite cheap. All the staples are still really cheap, rice is like 50c a pound, brown rice around a dollar, dried beans about a dollar, meat if you buy boney cuts, like a dollar a pound, and vegetables for the most part aren't much more than a dollar a pound, sometimes they're less. I have an Indian friend, his entire family's budget for Indian food per month is about $90, they do buy soda/bagels/etc for "fun" but their main food is Indian food. An entire family eating on $90 a month (they're vegetarians, too, though), and it possibly includes his mother's catering business.

One valid point is transportation, it is right many cities do not have good supermarkets, and people are forced to buy crappy food from corner stores/etc. That's a bit more understandable, but there's lack of knowledge and motivation there, too. If people really WANTED to eat healthy, they could easily bum a ride from a friend or something and get to where they need to get healthy food, but many times people just don't care. People are willing to travel, to, say, buy a flatscreen TV, or Playstation, but not food.

http://web.archive.org/web/200904012341 ... ge0001.htm
I could go on, but that article about sums up the problem. He's a bit insensitive about it, but yes. That article there explains everything.

Quote:
But now, with the rising costs of food, energy, packaging, etc., food has become a major budget outlay. Therefore, it is becoming more practical to buy in bulk and process one's own food. But since Granny baked bread weekly, made sausages in the fall, had a kitchen garden even in the city, and distrusted canned foods, people have suffered a kind of cultural amnesia concerning food.

About sums it up. Cultural amnesia.


Finances are only one cost though.
Poor people often work two or three exhausting minimum wage jobs.
They don't have time or energy to do much at home other than pass out in front of the TV.


_________________
"Such is the Frailty
of the human Heart, that very few Men, who have no Property, have any Judgment of their own.
They talk and vote as they are directed by Some Man of Property, who has attached their Minds
to his Interest."


ValentineWiggin
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15 Aug 2012, 1:34 am

Is simple:
Poor people are fat(ter)
because for them, being anything else is hard(er).


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of the human Heart, that very few Men, who have no Property, have any Judgment of their own.
They talk and vote as they are directed by Some Man of Property, who has attached their Minds
to his Interest."


Kurgan
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15 Aug 2012, 8:43 am

ValentineWiggin wrote:
Kurgan wrote:
ValentineWiggin wrote:
Cherry_Blossom wrote:
People are designed to eat a variety of foods, primarily plant-based. If you eat a well balanced meal, your tummy will be nice and full, and you will not have overeaten.

If you eat a diet that consists primarily of cheap, high calorie, carb-laden foods, you will still fill your tummy, but now it is unbalanced.

Unhealthy foods are cheap: Ramen noodles, pasta, white bread, taco bell, McDonald's, etc.

Healthy foods are expensive: a salad at panera, fruits and vegetables, lean meats and meat substitutes, whole grain bread, a salad at a restaurant


It's true- high-carb meals spike your glucose like a gunshot, storing the vast majority of calories immediately, and then you're back to being hungry again.

I read a study recently which found refined sugar is more addictive than cocaine.

If I can spend $5 for five burgers off the dollar menu, or $5 for a postage-stamp sized bag of salad, gee- I wonder which one I'll choose, if I'm poor.


The very same five dollars will give you five cans of tuna and a package of Dole salad is roughly 3 dollars. 12 eggs can be found for as low as 1.40 $.

The stuff on addiction to sugar is extremely exaggerated; people are merely looking for excuses to eat unhealthy food.

http://www.preparedfoods.com/articles/s ... n-debunked
http://www.eatingdisordersblogs.com/nut ... _420766754

On topic: The very same lack of dicipline that prevented most poor Americans from getting an education also prevents them from eating healthy.


Oh, my bad- so three dollar menu burgers or a bag of salad or five cans of tuna- wow, hard choice.
Not.
People don't need any "excuse" for the food they eat- to you, or anyone else.
It's none of your business.
I was just mentioning a study I read.

Sure, sure. Poor people are fat because they "lack discipline". Kurgan knows better than every study ever done on the relationship between socioeconomics and food accessibility. :roll:


I'd take tuna sallad rather than sloppy, fattening McDonald's burgers any day. It's been four years since the last time I ate there—even though I walk by pretty much everyday.

I never said fat people should justify their diets to me, but I don't need to justify my debunking to them either. I'd take the words spoken by professionals before I take the word of obese people. I didn't say that I knew better than any studies ever done, but professional, respected scientists, PTs and nutritionists in large numbers know better than a few who resort to excuses.



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15 Aug 2012, 8:45 am

ValentineWiggin wrote:
Is simple:
Poor people are fat(ter)
because for them, being anything else is hard(er).


http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0883617.html



1000Knives
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15 Aug 2012, 1:21 pm

Kurgan wrote:
ValentineWiggin wrote:
Is simple:
Poor people are fat(ter)
because for them, being anything else is hard(er).


http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0883617.html


Well, it's part of it, lack of discipline. I mean anyone can like "pull themselves up by the bootstraps" but it does take a lot of discipline and it's hard as hell. In fighting a problem, I believe there's 3 factors, drive/motivation, resources, and knowledge. I mean to a point they all can work off one another, but without those 3 things, you will get nowhere. Sometimes you can have more of one or two of them to offset the lack of the other, but yes.

But the other example, is environment, in urban areas, few go to college, whereas in suburbs, many do. To do it in an urban area bucks the trend of everyone else around you. That's the thing, people are affected by their environment, and most people just do what people around them do. And this includes not cooking/eating correctly. Can you have more discipline and achieve more, well, obviously. Men have done much extraordinary feats than cooking, but most people really do not think much for themselves, and thus succumb to what's going on around them. In some sense we're lucky, as due to our social problems, we succumb less to our environment since we "naturally" do not fit in with it.

But, rather than just call the poor lazy/undisciplined/etc, you have to take a compassionate look at the problem. IE, "Love the sinner, hate the sin." You have to see the whole reason WHY such things occur, and generally in any problem, it's not usually the fault of one person, but of many, but placing blame doesn't really solve problems. You have to figure out what you can do on your end, if you wanna see results in your life. Like, I can complain about how bad the food supply is, and how terrible everything is, but it won't do anything for me, instead it's much better just to learn to cook my own food from scratch. I basically "go around" the problem that way.



mv
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15 Aug 2012, 1:22 pm

Kurgan wrote:
The very same five dollars will give you five cans of tuna and a package of Dole salad is roughly 3 dollars. 12 eggs can be found for as low as 1.40 $.


Uh, no. Not where I live in the U.S. Not even remotely close at all. I do eat healthy, and I also do all the grocery shopping for my family, which is how I know what things cost.

I'm lucky to live in a suburb and have a car. If you live in a poor section of a city, in a food desert, grocery shopping becomes another part-time job.



ValentineWiggin
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15 Aug 2012, 1:50 pm

Kurgan wrote:
ValentineWiggin wrote:
Kurgan wrote:
ValentineWiggin wrote:
Cherry_Blossom wrote:
People are designed to eat a variety of foods, primarily plant-based. If you eat a well balanced meal, your tummy will be nice and full, and you will not have overeaten.

If you eat a diet that consists primarily of cheap, high calorie, carb-laden foods, you will still fill your tummy, but now it is unbalanced.

Unhealthy foods are cheap: Ramen noodles, pasta, white bread, taco bell, McDonald's, etc.

Healthy foods are expensive: a salad at panera, fruits and vegetables, lean meats and meat substitutes, whole grain bread, a salad at a restaurant


It's true- high-carb meals spike your glucose like a gunshot, storing the vast majority of calories immediately, and then you're back to being hungry again.

I read a study recently which found refined sugar is more addictive than cocaine.

If I can spend $5 for five burgers off the dollar menu, or $5 for a postage-stamp sized bag of salad, gee- I wonder which one I'll choose, if I'm poor.


The very same five dollars will give you five cans of tuna and a package of Dole salad is roughly 3 dollars. 12 eggs can be found for as low as 1.40 $.

The stuff on addiction to sugar is extremely exaggerated; people are merely looking for excuses to eat unhealthy food.

http://www.preparedfoods.com/articles/s ... n-debunked
http://www.eatingdisordersblogs.com/nut ... _420766754

On topic: The very same lack of dicipline that prevented most poor Americans from getting an education also prevents them from eating healthy.


Oh, my bad- so three dollar menu burgers or a bag of salad or five cans of tuna- wow, hard choice.
Not.
People don't need any "excuse" for the food they eat- to you, or anyone else.
It's none of your business.
I was just mentioning a study I read.

Sure, sure. Poor people are fat because they "lack discipline". Kurgan knows better than every study ever done on the relationship between socioeconomics and food accessibility. :roll:


I'd take tuna sallad rather than sloppy, fattening McDonald's burgers any day. It's been four years since the last time I ate there—even though I walk by pretty much everyday.

I never said fat people should justify their diets to me, but I don't need to justify my debunking to them either. I'd take the words spoken by professionals before I take the word of obese people. I didn't say that I knew better than any studies ever done, but professional, respected scientists, PTs and nutritionists in large numbers know better than a few who resort to excuses.

So whenever you see studies published about the correlation between socioeconomic class, educational level, etc, and obesity, you....write it off because you'd prefer to make character judgements about people?


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of the human Heart, that very few Men, who have no Property, have any Judgment of their own.
They talk and vote as they are directed by Some Man of Property, who has attached their Minds
to his Interest."


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15 Aug 2012, 2:16 pm

Besides processed crap being cheaper, the youth make up more of the population in run down neighbourhoods than the suburbs so there's more fast food consumption because of that too.



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15 Aug 2012, 2:23 pm

mv wrote:
Kurgan wrote:
The very same five dollars will give you five cans of tuna and a package of Dole salad is roughly 3 dollars. 12 eggs can be found for as low as 1.40 $.


Uh, no. Not where I live in the U.S. Not even remotely close at all. I do eat healthy, and I also do all the grocery shopping for my family, which is how I know what things cost.

I'm lucky to live in a suburb and have a car. If you live in a poor section of a city, in a food desert, grocery shopping becomes another part-time job.


I've checked the prices on various grocery store chains (among rhem Walmart). In the poor section of the city, there's still public transport and if grocery shopping takes two hours, nobody's obliged by law to shop for groceries everyday.