women, testosterone and femininity

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there are established guidelines for what is considered a "normal" range of hormones in men and women, which is why blood tests can be performed to see whether the person falls within the normal range. it is true that it varies from person to person and over the short and long term, but there are still established ranges of what is considered normal. some diseases and conditions can cause a person's hormones to fall outside of the "normal" range.

i am not sure what kind of studies you want, but here are some that discuss the normal ranges of hormones. there is a great deal of variation already built into what is considered healthy:

http://women.webmd.com/normal-testoster ... s-in-women
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reference_ ... x_hormones

EDIT: i should add that if you have any further questions about thread derailments and so on, feel free to contact a moderator through the proper channels (moderator attention thread or via PM). thank you

I know there are ranges, and i also have a small library of medical documents at my disposal which talk on this very issue. But in the range itself its quite a wide margin for what normal is. And the way hormones interact with each other can be more important than the specific amounts of a single one in the persons system.

I never said testosterone was completely unimportant, but low levels are preferable to high, for obvoius reasons. If a woman has thick hair growth, she has more androgens than she needs.

Likewise, if a man has gyno, a high-pitched voice and so on, he has more esteogen than he needs to maintain his bone density.



The hair is as dense and widespread as it is because of androgens; it doesn't make any vellus hairs more sensitive to androgens. Generally, PCOS may affect up to 10% of the population.



Varying levels of hormones as well. In a woman without a relevant medical condition, the levels may be as low as 15 ng/dl or as high as 70 ng/dl—and women with low testosterone levels are rated as rhe most attractive.



Because of their diet, they do indeed have lower testosterone levels. Furthermore, there's very little difference in the degree of hirsutism among women from different ethnc groups.

This is also why upper-class black women in Africa often have less testosterone than black American women.



Abnormal? A woman with 15 ng/dl of testosterone will always have less hair below her arms and on her legs than a woman with 70 ng/dl.



Goatees, moustaches and so on were popular among the Romans. Full beards wee typically assosciated with gauls. Men did not shave their body hair back in ancient Rome.



Women with low testosterone levels are more feminine than women with high—and they have less body hair. If a woman with 70 ng/dl worth of teatosterone removes her body hair, she'll appear more feminine even though it won't increase her estrogen levels. Likewise, a man with 150 ng/dl worth of testosterone, 11" biceps and gyno will look more masculine after removing his manboobs and beefing up, even though his levels will remain the same.

In other words, a woman who removes body hairs mimics a more feminine woman. A few minutes a few times a week is a small price to pay.

By having no body hair, men will sub-consciously think that her estrogen levels are as high as possible and her testosterone levels are as low as possible without it affecting her health in a negative way. If most women shave it off and a few does not, then it will appear as if said women have higher testoserone levels than everyone else.



The hair is less dense and it grows much slower, so shaving it takes less time. A lot of the guys shave their chests in Europe.



An example of product placements is the latest James bond movie, where Aston Martin funded the production with 50 million dollars.

And the stuff about female journalists:

http://www.women24.com/Multimedia/Fashi ... s-20120726

When was the last time you saw FHM b.tch about David Beckham's beard?

whoaaaaa Kurgan... not gonna keep playing the fisking game.

one article does not equal only female journalists hating on beards. sorry, but you'll need to do a more extensive comparison than that.

interestingly, FHM DOES herald the comeback of the oh-so-feminine and sexy armpit hair:
http://www.fhm.com/upgrade/hairy-heaven ... back-83201

i'd also like to see some evidence that demonstrates that women who have more testosterone must always have hairier bodies, in spite of heredity. you speak quite confidently for someone with no solid evidence to back them up.

and uhhhhhhh native north american women have the same diet as the rest of north american women, and they are no hairier. they eat at all the same restaurants and cook the same foods. nice try, though.

perhaps you might want to study the history of body hair amongst the Romans, as it is quite telling. higher class men were kept hairless. it was not until later days that the fashion of beards became popular. if you want to make things up, at least make something up that i can't google.

you have a curious strategy of trying so hard to prove a point that you end up proving mine. if you want to include women with PCOS in your category of females with normal hormones, then you'll have to accept that up to 10% of these normal women may experience excess hair growth... and thus normal feminine women may be quite hairy because of your inclusion. either hairier women are normal and thus feminine, or they are not. you can't have it both ways.

but anyway you're imposing your own definition of "feminine" onto the entire population of women. you don't actually know a woman's testosterone levels at a glance, except in some cases that she may have a hormonal imbalance or excessive hormones.

iIagree with FHM; for the love of God, they should shave their armpits. Google "ugly celebrity beard" and you'll see that most articles are written by women.



I have already backed it up.



Different ethnic groups have different dieting habbits, which is also why there's a big difference in the prealence of obesity. If 80% of all native Americans eat like white people and 20% do not, then the latter 20% will affect the hormonal statistics.



Actually, Roman men regarded hairless Egyptian men as "deformed". Shaving pubic hair was common among roman men when entering adulthood, but everything else was left intact.

There are Roman paintings from two centuries before christ that shows soldiers with moustaches and goatees.



I've never proven your point. On the outside, the only difference between PCOS women and normal women are caused by androgens. The women with the highest esteogen levels are the most feminine. The 10% women with the lowest estrogen levels are the most masculine.



Femininity is caused by esteogen, masculinity is caused by testosterone. If woman A has twice as much esteogen as woman B, she's also twice as feminine and will almost certainly have less body hair. To cover up this fact, woman B can shave her body hair and look more feminine than she really is.

A girl before puberty does not have enough estrogen to develop breasts, rounded hips and so on.

She also doesn't yet have the hormones which cause body hair growth.
Total hairlessness in humans is a sign of prepubescence.

Dude, I don't care if you like body hair or not. Just don't pretend there's an evo-psych reason for it, when it's actually the opposite.

yes, this absolutely sums it up.

i have already addressed every point you've made, Kurgan. you're making up pretend-facts, pretend-cultural norms and pretend-history, so there isn't actually much point in debating this.

ive yet to find a single way in which he is wrong.

Hope you're prepared to wax it off for him.

yea because women aparently all collectively hate men with shaved genitals
if anything ive heard more women liking them shaved than hairy

There is an evolutionary reason. High estrogen and low estrogen is regarded higher than vice verca and a dead giveaway is body hair levels. At 15 ng/dl of testosterone, a woman will have almost no body hair. This is why American women of Asian origin have almost no armpit hair.

Puberty and fertility brings with it MORE body hair, not less. Hairlessness (on the body at least) isn't seen in humans outside prepubescence and hairphobic cultures.

I'm not sure what part of this is difficult?

the part that this thread is about facial hair, so why are we discussing female armpit hair

Puberty with high testosterone brings with it much hair, puberty with low testosterone brings wth it very little hair. In fact, some very feminine women only have terminal hairs near their pubic region and only have vellus hairs in their armpits.

Seems to me like you're bitter because it can be explained biologically, whereas a modern day distaste for beards can not.

You're drawing a false dichotomy.

TOTAL hairlessness is what we're talking about, IE the result of shaving or waxing an area.
Fertile women post-puberty have at least SOME body hair.

As for my "bitterness", I already said I found beards more attractive, because they indicate someone who isn't hairphobic like the rest of pop culture.

I could just as easily make up some BS like "Hm. More hair equals more testosterone. Testosterone is related to aggression and potentially to violence. So women prefer baby-faced men because they look safer!"

lolwut. Naw. People are hairphobic because they've been brought up that way.

Last edited by ValentineWiggin on 15 Aug 2012, 2:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.