besides doing crunches/situps and jogging

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You can't get washboard abs without increasing the muscle mass. A lot of muscles respond in different ways. Most muscles will increase most in volume with 6 to 10 reps and 3-5 sets, but the abs don't respond much that way. If you manage to lose some fat, it's not wasted.

Last edited by Reodor_Felgen on 14 Feb 2008, 5:50 am, edited 3 times in total.

Jogging and running will burn more muscle mass than what's desired. That's why long-distance runners, proffesional bikers, etc. aren't huge, despite steroid usage. When losing fat, most bodybuilders will have long cardio workouts with low intensity.
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I've managed to lose a lot of fat by eating more proteins, less carbohydrates and more liquid fat (eg. olive oil).

I don't agree with this. I have washboard abs underneath a layer of fat naturally. When I diet with no extra increase in muscle mass or direct training for the abs, my abs become much more apparent. Yes hypertrophy will increase their visibility but I believe the more significant aspect of a washboard stomach for most people is low body fat. Aside from the increase in muscle size the biggest advantage of training the abs is the increase in tone. This means that even when relaxed the abs seem to be in a state of higher tension so that they appear flatter and less saggy. This and the postural improvements that result will enhance the appearance of a flatter stomach

I think the subject of "washboard abs" is a bit off topic, and not relevant to the advice I gave.

I'm assuming that aaronrey is concerned about losing weight, and is also relatively inexperienced when it comes to exercise routines. (Forgive me if I'm incorrect). For someone in that situation to be concerned with how to develop muscle definition that is only possible with a bodyfat percentage around the single digits is premature, at best, damaging to his motivation (and health) at worst.

Flat belly=losing weight.
Losing weight=eat properly and exercise. (eat properly is listed first for a reason)
Then worry about which modeling contract to accept.

jogging and running per se wont kill muscle mass - its when you do it to an extent that outweights everything else (long distance running like a professional runner) AND in a way that doesnt tell the body that he better keeps the muscles. look sprinters or professional boxers (muay thai practicioners from thailand being even more extreme) - they all work out lots, and do a pretty hefty share of roadwork - much more than anyone who is concerned with losing weight will do. yet, all the sprinting powerhouses are muscular (you can be sure they do drills like 10x100m sprints with ten seconds rest), and you certainly dont want to mess with the abdominal strength of a boxer.
walking might not have the dangers of overworking the body into a catabolic state, but the amount of fat you burn in the session itself is ignorable. same goes for jogging. if you really want to burn a lot of calories, exercising in a way that keeps the metabolism stimulated for long after the workout finished is key, i.e. high intensity intervals, which are plain suicide if attempted without a solid base conditioning.

you do have sound advise in the sense that he should start slow with all kinds of roadwork. but to tell that jogging and running in general put the body in a catabolic state is plain wrong. (also, words could be wrote about the term of "burning muscle" - the body wont burn muscle, indicating that it gets energy out of it, its rather a reduction to save idle energy consumption)

Swimming is a very good exercise, as it makes you work all the areas of the body in one go.

I know a lot of people with very low bodyfat who don't have a real sixpack. I didn't say that the bodyfat didn't matter, because it does. To have a sixpack, your bodyfat must be significantly lower than the ideal fat percentage.

Nope. Athletes such as swimmers, long distance runners etc. work out equally hard as bodybuilders to prevent loss of muscle mass. It makes perfectly good sense, since proteins are burned before fat.



Both sprinters and boxers take steroids. Most aren't caught because you can't trace human growth hormone. If they didn't run, they'd be the same size as powerlifters.



Too bad low intensity workouts has proven to be more efficient when it comes to keeping muscle mass, yet burning fat (as evidenced by the bodybuilders and powerlifters training schedule).



I use the term "burn muscle" because norwegian expressions are somewhat different than english.

You did say that though... You can get washboard abs without increasing muscle mass. As kindofbluenote said all this talk of six packs and washboard abs has gone off topic. Hijack over.

Blanket statements like this are just ignorant For a start growth hormone is not the same thing as steroids. I happen to know quite a few professional fighters including boxers, thai boxers and mixed martial artists. Whether or not they take any performance enhancing drugs (which I doubt) I can assure you they would never be as big as powerlfiters even if they were juicing huge amounts. They just don't do enough hypertrophy work for a start. Some of them have almost non-existant weight training routines mostly the boxers and muay thai fighters.

basically, theres nothing to add to aries point, and we are indeed talking about a sidetrack of the subject the original poster sure doesnt benefit much of.

im curious, though, where you get your information. im avid on reading up on almost any kind of training philosophy of most different backgrounds (gymnastics, powerlifting, bodybuilding, martial arts, functional strength, muscle balance, tissue health...) and never found any evidence in favor of low intensity training. just au contraire, actually. low-intensity aerobic workout is, if anything at all, mentioned as the source of low muscle tone without measurable success in fat loss. (did you see anyone leave that aerobics class or his nordic walking session with a trim, fit and wiry body?)

thai boxing, i can tell from my own experience, since its a sport i practice, has basically no weight training - if so, just to make starters with next to no strength base catch up a bit. and the typical physique of thai boxers is a pretty moot subject to discuss, in terms of muscle burning:

yet all the conditioning they do is either running, sparring or fighting (bi-weekly) - all high intensity workouts without complementary weight training or any kind of mass-building workout.

hopefully, sidetrack end here.
and hopefully, the original poster can give us a bit more background on his situation and goals.

Growth hormones mixed with insulin is counted as steroids. I was talking about sprinters; they do a lot more running than most fighters. Fighters who don't use much weights when working out (eg. Oyama) instead compensates with high amounts of push-ups and similar workouts. Fighters don't need an extreme amount of strength because agility and speed is far more important when fighting.

Very few people use HGH + insulin based steroids because they're expensive (~200$ for one days dosage), on the other hand, Dianabol is very cheap (less than a dollar for one days dosage).

I've read it on several web-pages, books and have talked to some bodybuilders. Bodybuilding is a very popular sport in Norway at the present time.

Bodybuilders use 16 weeks to go from slightly obese to ripped, using only low-intensity cardiotraining.

Here's a picture of Lee Priest:



I've never heard of any bodybuilders who used anaerobic cardio training. Perhaps Eugene Sandow did, but no modern bodybuilders.



It's a common myth that bodybuilders and powerlifters work out for several hours each day. They typically work out one our each day, five days a week. Dorian Yates didn't use more than 20 minutes a week on his biceps.

55 year old ex-bodybuilder who doesn't lose fat with other than aerobic workouts:

you clearly do not know what you are talking about - this statement is just not true. end of story.
we do some short sets of pushups inbetween, to not let the body down too much - as a pure torture exercise if you want - other than that, no strength training involved. strength comes by training and sparring mainly.
most martial artists dont look bulky because the kind of stress that is exerted during martial arts training is very unlike the slow strength method of weight training (hence, weight training is quasi useless to increase, say, punching power), but it rather makes you gain in explosivity (speed strength) - the rate of activated muscle fibers over time. just as a pure functional strength workout wont build that much more mass (except taken to extreme degrees, see louie simmons and his pals), martial arts practise isnt exactly known for building muscle bulk. they both focus on different aspects of strength, whereas a little amount of slow strength is a byproduct of muscle mass training of a bodybuilding routine, but nothing more.

re bodybuilding: bodybuilding isnt a sport in the sense that strength(or any other ability) is trained. bodybuilding is at no point about getting actual results except conforming to a certain ideal type. hence, bodybuilding training is a completely different story from training that serves an actual point. as a bodybuilder, you dont need to be fit, hence you dont need to employ training measures that make you so.

these slow methods may over long (=huge) distances rid you of fat in a very soothing manner, not damaging the delicate curve of your carefully sculpted bicep and not challenging you in any serious way. but try your fitness against someone who runs ten 100m sprints in a row. (and this guy is likely to have his share of solid muscle)
try it against someone whos trained to deal out punches (an anaerobic activity) for twelve rounds.

to put this all to some relation to the threads point:
getting a flatter tummy, probably from a rather not-as-slim-as-desired situation, rather calls for a healthy solution that increases overall fitness to make the flatter tummy a much more lasting state, because its built on a solid support instead of being the result of a mere shaping exercise.

I have met a lot of Kyokoushinkai blackbelts who can confirm what I said. A lot of MMA fighters (like Tank Abbot) also work out like bodybuilders and strongmen.



Like I said: Tank Abbot is huge (he can benchpress 270 kg), and is a skilled MMA fighter. Bruce Lee was also pretty big when he was on steroids, and had weightlifting as a part of his schedule.



Strength is in fact trained during bodybuilding. Methods that increase strength are also efficient to increase muscle mass. Ronnie Coleman can leg press more than a metric ton eight times, and Jostein Ødegaarden can benchpress 220 kg 16 times.

Powerlifters and strongmen with a low percentage of bodyfat (Mariusz Pudzianowski, Arild Haugen, Scott Mendelson etc.) look almost like bodybuilders.



I easily lost 10 kg in a few weeks with slow cardio sessions, without starvation, running or any other unnecesary crap. Bodybuilders don't use more than 16 weeks to go from being slightly obese to being ripped (that's when they use steroids).

Even though a bodybuilder don't have a chance against a sprinter when it comes to running, the sprinter has no chance against the bodybuilder when it comes to strength.

Have you tried treadmills or elliptical machines?