Vegetarianism and Harassment

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Same here....

But I also respect those that dont...unless they try to make me feel bad about eating meat because they think eating plants is holier..... My cuz, a prime example. He decided one year he was going to be a vegan. Ok, I ask why? Im curious. he says"there is too much suffering in the world and in protest to the animals being slaughtered I no longer eat meat." "uh, ok" I reply. A few minutes later I notice his leather belt and leather shoes.... "Marcus, nice shoes and belt, are they leather" I ask. "Yes they are ans they cost $XX.XX. They are NAME BRAND you know"....
"funny I thought leather was from cows" I then say.

I guess you cant have fashion and no meat at the same time.....

In the 'prime' example you give, there is nothing to suggest your cousin was trying to make you feel bad about anything - he simply answered YOUR question. It sounds to me as if you have some unresolved thoughts that youve attempted to displace to your cousin. Several minutes after he mentioned 'protest' and 'slaughter' you were still dwelling on the subject.

So what if he wants to wear leather? By altering his diet hes made an effort to reconcile his lifestyle against his personal and unique level of conscience. If you took the time to reconcile your lifestyle against your conscience, then perhaps you'd not have felt the need to make an unprovoked attack on another persons personal lifestlye choices.

Unprovoked attack?? More like poking holes in his justification for being a vegetarian... While there's nothing wrong with being a vegetarian or a vegan... Claiming that you are one because you're protesting against the slaughter of animals and then going on to wear leather..which is made from the skin of cows.. (they can't live without skin, therefore are slaughtered) is a bit hypocritical...

I'd have thought it'd be quite a normal aspie thing to do, poking holes in arguments.

I think there better reasons to be a vegetarian/vegan than "protesting slaughter"...

I take your point, but if we were take it to the extreme, it would be impossible to function in an omnivorous society without being hypocritical to some degree.

Every other product you purchase in an average day, might involve animal cruelty somewhere down the line. Snakes and rodents killed by combine harvesters, various animals are killed eating slug-pellets etc. It becomes impossible to adopt any sort of consumer ethics without being hypocrital, hence the need to compromise and draw a line, where-ever you feel comfortable as an individual.

Some people might be comfortable simply reducing their consumption of a particular product, rather than avoiding it altogether. Buying leather and not eating meat is an example of this reduction, the product in question being cows.

Ill admit my choice of words was a bit OTT, thanks for pointing it out. And dietary habits arent a very visible form of protest, so if 'protest' was used Ladysmokeaters leather argument holds up.

Last edited by psych on 18 Dec 2005, 10:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Still, if buy leather, the cow is killed, you get the cured skin, and the meat is sold to someone else...

I know what goes into providing me the meat and animal products I consume/use. I don't have much of a problem with it, till it becomes overly excess...

GA

The question is which is the primary, and which the byproduct? The market demands for leather & meat are unlikely to be exactly the same, so one product is likely to be going to waste, or at least used/sold with relative inefficiently. Ive always assumed meat to be the primary product, so i presume that reduced demand for meat will reduce the number of animals slaughtered pa. Perhaps im wrong, but meat seems to be valued higher by most modern people, which is why ive always thougt of leather as a meat byproduct.

I realise that theoretically there would still be a demand for leather even if cow-meat consumption ceased completely, however id expect the price of leather to increase dramatically, and the farmed cattle population would decrease, as most people sought cheaper alternatives for their clothing and furniture.

meh

As far as I'm concerned, becoming a vegetarian or vegan is the result of choice, not superiority of morality. Just like getting fat, having a high cholesterol level, and dying of a heart attack at age 60 is simply a choice.

Not that I'm implying that everyone is either one or the other from my examples.

The fact remains, being a vegetarian/vegan (provided it is not for some sort of medical condition, in which case my sympathies) is rude and anti-social.

Traditionally meat is a privilege of those who can afford it, and to refuse it when offered would be considered very rude and a great slight against your hosts. It's much like if you were in a car accident and stranded out in the middle of nowhere- after waiting for hours a car stops for you, and yet you disdainfully refuse to accept their help- "Sorry, I'm waiting for a porsche."

No matter how politely you put it, you are basically saying "Ew, it's not good enough for me! ... but don't mind me, you go ahead and eat it.", and (intentionally or not) adopting an air of superiority. It's not just a case of refusing something, it is a case of refusing something that we are privileged to have in the first place (and this applies whether someone is literally offering you a piece of meat, or you are just doing your groceries), not to mention the fact that by saying meat is beneath you (which is what you are saying by your actions, if not your words), you are casting dispersions upon those that do eat it.

It sort of reminds me of that scene in Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom where the desperately poor villagers prepare a meal for Indy and Willie:

Another point worth mentioning is that for those complaining about being discriminated against for being vegetarian/vegan, it is seen as hypocritical because infact you are being discriminating by refusing to eat meat. Eating plays a very important role in society, and has done for thousands of years. Refusing to share a meal with someone is making a great judgement about their character.
It's sort of like a supporter of eugenics complaining that people discriminate against him because of this.


Anyway, I hope that helps explain the way that vegetarianism is seen by general society, and perhaps might help explain why people feel personally slighted when you tell them you are a vegetarian. This was not intended as an attack or flame, it was intended as an explanation to help you see how by refusing to eat meat you say more than you think you say, and to help you understand the negative attitude that is often shown towards vegetarians.

Out of curiosity, do you eat cats, dogs, budgies and hamsters? and if not, why not?

If i offered you LSD, would you politely accept?

Did you even read what I wrote? I'm not sure I understand the relevance of what you are asking, however I'll answer anyway if it will amuse you or help you understand.

No, I don't eat any of those things because they are not considered food in my culture. Beef, Pork, Lamb, Chicken, etc are the sorts of meats that I usually eat.

If you offered me LSD I would probably refuse, unless I could see a potential use for it. I don't use drugs myself, and drugs are not considered food in my culture either. I hardly find illegal recreational drugs and food to be a relevant comparison.

As I noted at the bottom of my previous post, I am not intending to stir up flames, I was merely attempting a legitimate explanation in regards to the concerns and queries several previous posters have brought up. If you don't agree with what I wrote, fine, but that is your choice- so don't go complaining that no-one answered your questions just because you don't like the answer you got.

You missed his point psych...

You mention culture, ill assume this to be a crucial part of your reasoning. I live in a very multicultural area, the different races of people tend to have markedly different (although overlapping) dietary preferences. As for myself, i suppose have defined my own culture.

If i was a travelling through a remote nepalese village and helped some villagers, it is possible an animal might be slaughtered in my honour. That would represent a great sacrifice on their part, because in such an area an animal is considered a luxury item and to refuse would cause confusion and very probably great offense. You would imo have a very good point in those circumstances. But here in London, i see it as completely irrelevant.

I disagree, being different isnt necessarily being superior. However, it may have the effect of making the meat-eater uncomfortably judge their own character.
Im not making anyone feel uncomfortable, they are making themselves feel uncomfortable. If they were 100% comfortable with their own descisions, then there would not be an issue.

I honestly cant see any more reason for me to eat meat than for you to take LSD. Most people have at least one type of food that they just cant stand. I dont like to eat meat, i also hate the smell of vinegar. In familiar company, i will leave a room that reeks of vinegar.

Out of interest, does your view extend to people with religious diets, such as jews who avoid pork?

I may have been unclear earlier, but when I was talking about culture and society I meant in traditional culture, not modern times. Obviously modern times are completely different, or else you guys probably wouldn't be vegetarians at all in the first place. I was trying to point out the origins of such anti-vegetarian viewpoints, and the underlying basis of where they might come from- I seriously doubt the majority of people have actually sat down and considered specifically what it is that makes them dislike or feel uncomfortable about vegetarians. I imagine it is more of a subconscious thing based on our traditional culture.

I do not believe this applies in the same way to religious food laws, because those would be the accepted norm within that culture. However, the observant have probably noticed that people who follow religious food laws are quite often ribbed in the same way vegetarians are- this is more a case of culture clash really. The difference lies wherein the fact that Vegetarians come from within the same culture and yet behave as if they don't. Sort of like if you had a group of friends all the same religion, and one suddenly changed. They are in effect making themselves an outcast. This doesn't mean they don't have good reasons for their decision, but these reasons may not necessarily present themselves effectively to the others in the group who may feel somewhat betrayed.

I suppose it's sort of like eating with your hands at a posh dinner party. In some cultures this would be perfectly acceptable. Traditionally in our culture this would NOT in any way be acceptable. In modern times people may be a bit put off and uncomfortable with it (due to what is traditionally okay and what isn't), but these sorts of formalities are a bit more lax and you could probably get away with it.
I realise that's a pretty silly example, and not really a good comparison with vegetarianism, but I hope it makes the point I was trying to get across.
Another example might be homosexuality- previously this was very taboo and it is now (mostly) accepted, even though many homosexuals still find themselves the target of jokes and derogatory remarks.

Then if the slaughter and suffering is a problem, why kill the cow for the leather? That was the question I had. I just think if you are going to use that as an excuse then you should also address the issue with the fact that killing for meat is the same as killing for leather. My opinion. I was curious as to why he carried on about suffereing, yet he did not whole heartedly followthrough with the ideals behind it. My attempt wasnt to be mean, but geeze I had to listen to his rants while I ate my meat. I could care less if he ate meat (which he does now, the suffering must not have weighed on hid mind anymore) or not. I did get bothered by him ranting about the suffereing of my dinner. I should have clarified though.

Eat meat, sink a fleet. Be a vegetarian, hospitalize the one and only Hungarian. Be a vegan, cut short the life of the one who isn't Reagan.