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women, testosterone and femininity

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MXH
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15 Aug 2012, 3:29 pm

ValentineWiggin wrote:
Kurgan wrote:
@VW: A man does not look more masculine without a beard, nor are beards caused by female hormones.

Female body hair isn't caused by "male" hormones.
Because if testosterone was an exclusively-male hormone,
IT WOULDN'T BE IN WOMEN AND CAUSING NATURAL HAIR GROWTH IN THE FIRST PLACE. :lol:


Now you confused me. You make it sound as if men and women are two different species that dont even share the same chemical makeups. Ohh wait we arent. What we do have are different predominant things. Estrogen in women and testosterone in males. So its easy to see why they call them male and female hormones.
you're literally arguing out of thin air at this moment. Your post had nothing to do with what kurgan said



hyperlexian
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15 Aug 2012, 3:32 pm

Kurgan wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
Kurgan wrote:
ValentineWiggin wrote:
Kurgan wrote:
@VW: A man does not look more masculine without a beard, nor are beards caused by female hormones.

Female body hair isn't caused by "male" hormones.
Because if testosterone was an exclusively-male hormone,
IT WOULDN'T BE IN WOMEN AND CAUSING NATURAL HAIR GROWTH IN THE FIRST PLACE. :lol:


Men have 20 times as much of it. Women need very small doses to prevent excessive muscle wasting the same way men need small amounts of estrogen to keep up their bone density.

no, it serves other purposes as well. it tends to drive the libido in women (and it does not have that purpose in men to the same degree - other hormones affect the sex drive). it is an important hormone in women's bodies, and does not make them less feminine for its existence.


It makes them more masculine and by competing against estrogen in their bodies, it also makes them less feminine. There are many hormones that fuels a woman's sex drive; lack of sex drive may also be because of low estrogen and progeseron levels.

no, because your opinion of what is "feminine" is not established as universal. after all, you think bodybuilding females look feminine and many people disagree, so that points to the fact that it is extremely subjective. a lot of people may even think that overly muscular women are more masculine than feminine. if you ask many different men what makes a woman more feminine you will get many different answers.

testosterone doesn't "compete" with other hormones - it is part of the normal mix. it isn't the only hormone involved in female sex drive, but it serves that purpose to a much higher degree in females than in males.
http://www.livescience.com/21114-testos ... ation.html


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Kurgan
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15 Aug 2012, 3:39 pm

hyperlexian wrote:
no, because your opinion of what is "feminine" is not established as universal. after all, you think bodybuilding females look feminine and many people disagree, so that points to the fact that it is extremely subjective. a lot of people may even think that overly muscular women are more masculine than feminine. if you ask many different men what makes a woman more feminine you will get many different answers.

testosterone doesn't "compete" with other hormones - it is part of the normal mix. it isn't the only hormone involved in female sex drive, but it serves that purpose to a much higher degree in females than in males.
http://www.livescience.com/21114-testos ... ation.html


I never said overly muscular women are feminine, I said women with a little muscle (like Allison Stokke) can be. If a woman has more than 15 ng/dl worth of testosterone, she also has enough to have a sex drive.

What's feminine is whatever indicates a high estrogen level and a low testosterone level. There's a difference between "no testosterone" and "low testosterone". A masculine woman has much more testosterone than she needs.



hyperlexian
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15 Aug 2012, 3:44 pm

Kurgan wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
no, because your opinion of what is "feminine" is not established as universal. after all, you think bodybuilding females look feminine and many people disagree, so that points to the fact that it is extremely subjective. a lot of people may even think that overly muscular women are more masculine than feminine. if you ask many different men what makes a woman more feminine you will get many different answers.

testosterone doesn't "compete" with other hormones - it is part of the normal mix. it isn't the only hormone involved in female sex drive, but it serves that purpose to a much higher degree in females than in males.
http://www.livescience.com/21114-testos ... ation.html


I never said overly muscular women are feminine, I said women with a little muscle (like Allison Stokke) can be. If a woman has more than 15 ng/dl worth of testosterone, she also has enough to have a sex drive.

What's feminine is whatever indicates a high estrogen level and a low testosterone level. There's a difference between "no testosterone" and "low testosterone". A masculine woman has much more testosterone than she needs.

no, because once again you're applying subjective criteria to what is "feminine". it is only your opinion and not what other people may think. not every masculine woman (for example, a muscular woman like Allison Stokke) necessarily has more testosterone. men have more muscle because of androgens, so if you think men's body hair=masculine, then you'd also need to think that women with muscles are masculine. after all, the same hormones are involved in the gender disparity. also, she is competitive, which is something some people consider to be a masculine trait.

if it was really just the effects of androgens that you found unfeminine, then you would have the same standards for all effects of those hormones. but you don't - you're cherrypicking certain effects and calling them less feminine.

also, you didn't read the study. which is why i rarely bother to post them.


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Kurgan
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15 Aug 2012, 3:52 pm

hyperlexian wrote:
no, because once again you're applying subjective criteria to what is "feminine". it is only your opinion and not what other people may think. not every masculine woman (for example, a muscular woman like Allison Stokke) necessarily has more testosterone. men have more muscle because of androgens, so if you think men's body hair=masculine, then you'd also need to think that women with muscles are masculine. after all, the same hormones are involved in the gender disparity. also, she is competitive, which is something some people consider to be a masculine trait.


Allison Stokke has a slightly increased muscle mass because she works out hard. Her testosterone levels are seemingly low, as she does not have large sweat glands, masculine hips, blocky facial features and so on. Generally, it's more accurate to say that all those women who can't even bench press the bar are out of shape.

You can be competetive and at the same time have low testosterone levels. A women who wants to look better than other women is also competing against them.


Quote:
if it was really just the effects of androgens that you found unfeminine, then you would have the same standards for all effects of those hormones. but you don't - you're cherrypicking certain effects and calling them less feminine.

also, you didn't read the study. which is why i rarely bother to post them.


I did read it. In the days before ovulating, a woman's estrogen levels and progesteron levels also rise to neutralize the effects of the testosterone.



MXH
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15 Aug 2012, 4:01 pm

Kurgan wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
no, because once again you're applying subjective criteria to what is "feminine". it is only your opinion and not what other people may think. not every masculine woman (for example, a muscular woman like Allison Stokke) necessarily has more testosterone. men have more muscle because of androgens, so if you think men's body hair=masculine, then you'd also need to think that women with muscles are masculine. after all, the same hormones are involved in the gender disparity. also, she is competitive, which is something some people consider to be a masculine trait.


Allison Stokke has a slightly increased muscle mass because she works out hard. Her testosterone levels are seemingly low, as she does not have large sweat glands, masculine hips, blocky facial features and so on. Generally, it's more accurate to say that all those women who can't even bench press the bar are out of shape.

You can be competetive and at the same time have low testosterone levels. A women who wants to look better than other women is also competing against them.


Quote:
if it was really just the effects of androgens that you found unfeminine, then you would have the same standards for all effects of those hormones. but you don't - you're cherrypicking certain effects and calling them less feminine.

also, you didn't read the study. which is why i rarely bother to post them.


I did read it. In the days before ovulating, a woman's estrogen levels and progesteron levels also rise to neutralize the effects of the testosterone.


to continue the trend of attractive feminine women who are muscular, the one that took the olympics by storm Michelle Jenneke
Image



hyperlexian
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15 Aug 2012, 4:05 pm

Kurgan wrote:
Allison Stokke has a slightly increased muscle mass because she works out hard. Her testosterone levels are seemingly low, as she does not have large sweat glands, masculine hips, blocky facial features and so on. Generally, it's more accurate to say that all those women who can't even bench press the bar are out of shape.

You can be competetive and at the same time have low testosterone levels. A women who wants to look better than other women is also competing against them.

see - you are cherrypicking again. those are not the only visual or behavioural measures of ABNORMALLY HIGH testosterone. her extra muscle mass, competitiveness, narrow hips (they are not wide, sorry), heavy eyebrows/sideburns, and oily skin for example... all point to a certain masculinity that could be caused by EXCESS testosterone. if you want to use testosterone as a measure of femininity, at least be consistent.

Kurgan wrote:
I did read it. In the days before ovulating, a woman's estrogen levels and progesteron levels also rise to neutralize the effects of the testosterone.

that doesn't matter - the testosterone still has a strong effect.


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Kurgan
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15 Aug 2012, 4:30 pm

hyperlexian wrote:
Kurgan wrote:
Allison Stokke has a slightly increased muscle mass because she works out hard. Her testosterone levels are seemingly low, as she does not have large sweat glands, masculine hips, blocky facial features and so on. Generally, it's more accurate to say that all those women who can't even bench press the bar are out of shape.

You can be competetive and at the same time have low testosterone levels. A women who wants to look better than other women is also competing against them.

see - you are cherrypicking again. those are not the only visual or behavioural measures of ABNORMALLY HIGH testosterone. her extra muscle mass, competitiveness, narrow hips (they are not wide, sorry), heavy eyebrows/sideburns, and oily skin for example... all point to a certain masculinity that could be caused by EXCESS testosterone. if you want to use testosterone as a measure of femininity, at least be consistent.

Kurgan wrote:
I did read it. In the days before ovulating, a woman's estrogen levels and progesteron levels also rise to neutralize the effects of the testosterone.

that doesn't matter - the testosterone still has a strong effect.


Not permanently. A woman with a high testosterone level all the month won't have elevated estrogen levels to compensate and will be hairy, have large sweat glands and so on.

Among the stuff the heightened estrogen levels compensate for during ovulation is hair growth.

As far as Allison Stokke goes, she does not have oily skin, she does not have sideburns, she does not have thick eyebrows, but she does have a hourglass figure. This is what a woman that's highly feminine and works out heavily looks like. If she was masculine, she'd look like Caster Semenya. Even highly feminine women can gain a little muscle (she only has about 4—5 lbs more muscle mass than a regular woman).

A lot of women have exess testosterone and are thus less feminine than the genetically blessed women with low testosterone levels. Women of Asian ancestry still have plenty of sex drive even though they don't have enough testosterone to have hairy legs.

www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-5632 ... s-men.html



hyperlexian
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15 Aug 2012, 4:42 pm

you are viewing Allison Stokke through the lens of finding her attractive and deciding retroactively that she must therefore be "feminine". i am not seeing it - i see a masculine silhouette and both physical and behavioural qualities that could point to excessive testosterone, which you yourself decided makes a woman less "feminine".

if nothing else, this should make you realise how subjective it really is. you have not posted any objective "facts" about her - it's all your opinion, filtered through your own subjective ideas of what makes a female "feminine". you decided it must be the levels of testosterone that lead to a more or less feminine look, yet you do not apply that idea consistently.

also, i will be splitting this sub-conversation to a new thread, as it is no longer part of the original topic and has become too extensive for people to keep discussing the original topic.


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Kurgan
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15 Aug 2012, 4:46 pm

hyperlexian wrote:
you are viewing Allison Stokke through the lens of finding her attractive and deciding retroactively that she must therefore be "feminine". i am not seeing it - i see a masculine silhouette and both physical and behavioural qualities that could point to excessive testosterone, which you yourself decided makes a woman less "feminine".

if nothing else, this should make you realise how subjective it really is. you have not posted any objective "facts" about her - it's all your opinion, filtered through your own subjective ideas of what makes a female "feminine". you decided it must be the levels of testosterone that lead to a more or less feminine look, yet you do not apply that idea consistently.

also, i will be splitting this sub-conversation to a new thread, as it is no longer part of the original topic and has become too extensive for people to keep discussing the original topic.


Big eyes, rounded physique, notable breast size, small nose, small jaw and so on equals feminine. Again, she has slightly bigger muscles than a regular woman beause she works out.

Image

Maybe you just find her masculine because you don't want women to look like that? As far as the facts go, you've never given any valid arguments for why she's masculine. A slightly muscular frame DOES NOT make her masculine.



hyperlexian
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15 Aug 2012, 4:56 pm

yes, my arguments were as valid as yours, because they are both based on personal observations and opinions. you don't have an objective viewpoint about what is feminine or masculine, and of course neither do i.

here's a hint for you:

https://www.google.ca/search?rlz=1C1DVC ... 80&bih=911

try to find 2 people who have the same opinion about what is feminine.


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15 Aug 2012, 5:52 pm

Kurgan wrote:
ValentineWiggin wrote:
Dude, I don't care if you like body hair or not. Just don't pretend there's an evo-psych reason for it, when it's actually the opposite.


There is an evolutionary reason. High estrogen and low estrogen is regarded higher than vice verca and a dead giveaway is body hair levels. At 15 ng/dl of testosterone, a woman will have almost no body hair. This is why American women of Asian origin have almost no armpit hair.

Asian males also have less/thinner body hair than Caucasians. I'm half-asian and in my 20's my testosterone was measured at 1054 ng/dl and I didn't have any chest hair (still don't 20 years later (and I like it that way)). You can't use body hair as a universal proxy for testosterone levels -- the way the body responds to androgens depends on DNA and other factors.



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15 Aug 2012, 6:37 pm

Women don't remove their body hair to appear having peachfuzz-like hair. They do it because it is expected of them. When I started growing body hair, it was wispy like peachfuzz, but I shaved it off because my mom told me to. I didn't realize how f****d up that was until fairly recently when I met a woman who didn't shave.



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15 Aug 2012, 6:49 pm

ValentineWiggin wrote:
MXH wrote:

Because as kurgan has said a billion times already (so maybe there is an echo), the people going for shaved arent doing it to appear prepubescent,


It really doesn't matter if that's the conscious motivation.
That's the actual EFFECT.


So what about people that just naturally don't have much body hair? Are they "prepubescent", in "effect"? Sorry but that's just your perception. There are women who like men who don't have much hair, women who like men who are really hairy, neither of them are going for anything "prepubescent", same for men, some people just don't like body hair so much. That's why shaving facial hair, for instance, is so common in so many cultures (because it is the most readily apparent body hair). A smoothly shaven face has an appeal that has everything to do with texture and smoothness, to some people (often including the shaver), and nothing to do with "prepubescence". Others like a beard or moustache.

I hate when these discussions turn into trying to paint people as juvenile or undesirable because of their appearance and/or choices and preferences are shamed and linked to some sort of sexual perversion even when they are perfectly normal. Some people shave this area or that area, both sexes, some people like shaved, both sexes, mostly because of texture. If you don't want to then don't, simple. You don't need to smear other people's choices to justify it.



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15 Aug 2012, 7:12 pm

MXH wrote:
ive yet to find a single way in which he is wrong.


Do you count "being over-dramatic" as being wrong?

"For the love of God, they should shave their armpits."

If having to see female armpit hair is your biggest problem, I'd like your life please.
(That was directed at Kurgan, not MXH.)


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15 Aug 2012, 7:16 pm

Apple_in_my_Eye wrote:
Kurgan wrote:
ValentineWiggin wrote:
Dude, I don't care if you like body hair or not. Just don't pretend there's an evo-psych reason for it, when it's actually the opposite.


There is an evolutionary reason. High estrogen and low estrogen is regarded higher than vice verca and a dead giveaway is body hair levels. At 15 ng/dl of testosterone, a woman will have almost no body hair. This is why American women of Asian origin have almost no armpit hair.

Asian males also have less/thinner body hair than Caucasians. I'm half-asian and in my 20's my testosterone was measured at 1054 ng/dl and I didn't have any chest hair (still don't 20 years later (and I like it that way)). You can't use body hair as a universal proxy for testosterone levels -- the way the body responds to androgens depends on DNA and other factors.


There are differences in how androgen sensitive your chest, certain areas of your face, abs, and thighs are, but the differences are almost nonexistant when it comes to pubic hair, lower legs or armpit hair.