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women, testosterone and femininity

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Cafeaulait
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15 Aug 2012, 8:25 pm

Apple_in_my_Eye wrote:
Kurgan wrote:
ValentineWiggin wrote:
Dude, I don't care if you like body hair or not. Just don't pretend there's an evo-psych reason for it, when it's actually the opposite.


There is an evolutionary reason. High estrogen and low estrogen is regarded higher than vice verca and a dead giveaway is body hair levels. At 15 ng/dl of testosterone, a woman will have almost no body hair. This is why American women of Asian origin have almost no armpit hair.

Asian males also have less/thinner body hair than Caucasians. I'm half-asian and in my 20's my testosterone was measured at 1054 ng/dl and I didn't have any chest hair (still don't 20 years later (and I like it that way)). You can't use body hair as a universal proxy for testosterone levels -- the way the body responds to androgens depends on DNA and other factors.


So true this.



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15 Aug 2012, 8:52 pm

So I'm still wondering why natural female body hair brought about by puberty is being equated with hormonal imbalances.


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15 Aug 2012, 8:58 pm

edgewaters wrote:
ValentineWiggin wrote:
MXH wrote:

Because as kurgan has said a billion times already (so maybe there is an echo), the people going for shaved arent doing it to appear prepubescent,


It really doesn't matter if that's the conscious motivation.
That's the actual EFFECT.


So what about people that just naturally don't have much body hair? Are they "prepubescent", in "effect"? Sorry but that's just your perception. There are women who like men who don't have much hair, women who like men who are really hairy, neither of them are going for anything "prepubescent", same for men, some people just don't like body hair so much. That's why shaving facial hair, for instance, is so common in so many cultures (because it is the most readily apparent body hair). A smoothly shaven face has an appeal that has everything to do with texture and smoothness, to some people (often including the shaver), and nothing to do with "prepubescence". Others like a beard or moustache.

I hate when these discussions turn into trying to paint people as juvenile or undesirable because of their appearance and/or choices and preferences are shamed and linked to some sort of sexual perversion even when they are perfectly normal. Some people shave this area or that area, both sexes, some people like shaved, both sexes, mostly because of texture. If you don't want to then don't, simple. You don't need to smear other people's choices to justify it.


I'm sorry you think pointing out hairlessness is the aesthetic of prepubescence constitutes "smearing other people's choices".
I have a venous disease which means no visible hair grows on my legs, and insofar as that goes, YES, my legs look like they did when I was a child.

I'm not the one saying the opposite sex "should", "for the love of god", shave XYZ body part,
and then trying to justify my disgust at the human body by pathologizing visual indicators of sexual maturity.


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15 Aug 2012, 9:27 pm

ValentineWiggin wrote:
I have a venous disease which means no visible hair grows on my legs, and insofar as that goes, YES, my legs look like they did when I was a child.


Your teeth probably look the same as they did once your adult teeth came in, too. Doesn't mean they are a sign of prepubescence.

You might say that because it's the result of a disease, you should naturally have hair, but some people just don't have as much body hair as adults - naturally. They aren't less physically mature than those who do, it's just a normal trait, particularly common with Asians and Native Americans.

Quote:
I'm not the one saying the opposite sex "should", "for the love of god", shave XYZ body part,
and then trying to justify my disgust at the human body by pathologizing visual indicators of sexual maturity.


Two wrongs don't make a right. Shaving has nothing to do with prepubescence, people who like it aren't secret pedophiles. If that were true, then every women who likes her man to shave is sexually attracted to children. This would be a huge minority, if not the majority, of women.

You can't fight social coercion by coercing and shaming people into different standards, then you're just swapping one standard for another, but the coercion (which is the actual problem) remains.



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15 Aug 2012, 9:56 pm

ValentineWiggin wrote:
So I'm still wondering why natural female body hair brought about by puberty is being equated with hormonal imbalances.

has anyone actually said that besides you?







heres a hint: no



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15 Aug 2012, 10:35 pm

Does a garden look nice if you don't keep things pruned and weeded? No - it looks like a wild, unappealing, out-of-control jungle.

If you care so little for your appearance that you want to just grow wild, go ahead - just don't expect (or force) other people to have to like it.

And that easily goes for both men & women.



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15 Aug 2012, 10:39 pm

Kurgan wrote:
hansky wrote:
I have the same opinion about body hair on women. It grows there naturally and it's a pain in the butt to remove it. The only reason it's considered unattractive to keep your body hair is because our society agrees that it is.


First of all, body hair is caused by androgens. Removing them will make a woman appear more feminine, but if a man shaves his beard, it does not make him more masculine.

Secondly, body hair on a woman is much less dense and grows slower than it would on a man, thus it's easier to remove.
this is the first post in this thread but it is replying to another post and doesnt sound like a thread starting post?


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15 Aug 2012, 10:42 pm

wtfid2 wrote:
Kurgan wrote:
hansky wrote:
I have the same opinion about body hair on women. It grows there naturally and it's a pain in the butt to remove it. The only reason it's considered unattractive to keep your body hair is because our society agrees that it is.


First of all, body hair is caused by androgens. Removing them will make a woman appear more feminine, but if a man shaves his beard, it does not make him more masculine.

Secondly, body hair on a woman is much less dense and grows slower than it would on a man, thus it's easier to remove.
this is the first post in this thread but it is replying to another post and doesnt sound like a thread starting post?

this was a new thread created with posts from a derailed old thread. the original thread is here:

http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt206353.html


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16 Aug 2012, 2:49 pm

edgewaters wrote:
ValentineWiggin wrote:
I have a venous disease which means no visible hair grows on my legs, and insofar as that goes, YES, my legs look like they did when I was a child.


Your teeth probably look the same as they did once your adult teeth came in, too. Doesn't mean they are a sign of prepubescence.

You might say that because it's the result of a disease, you should naturally have hair, but some people just don't have as much body hair as adults - naturally. They aren't less physically mature than those who do, it's just a normal trait, particularly common with Asians and Native Americans.

Quote:
I'm not the one saying the opposite sex "should", "for the love of god", shave XYZ body part,
and then trying to justify my disgust at the human body by pathologizing visual indicators of sexual maturity.


Two wrongs don't make a right. Shaving has nothing to do with prepubescence, people who like it aren't secret pedophiles. If that were true, then every women who likes her man to shave is sexually attracted to children. This would be a huge minority, if not the majority, of women.

You can't fight social coercion by coercing and shaming people into different standards, then you're just swapping one standard for another, but the coercion (which is the actual problem) remains.


There are about five strawmen in there.


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16 Aug 2012, 2:52 pm

ValentineWiggin wrote:
There are about five strawmen in there.

Then you should be easily able to defeat them with sensible argument - right? ;)



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16 Aug 2012, 2:56 pm

BlueMax wrote:
ValentineWiggin wrote:
There are about five strawmen in there.

Then you should be easily able to defeat them with sensible argument - right? ;)

What argument is there to be made? "You can't read" ?

Especially when the entire thread diversion took place because someone was shaming women FOR having body hair. :lol:

If pointing out body hair is brought about by puberty is "coercion", I might as well just let the Flat Earth Theorists fly back to their flock and claim victory.

Nah, I'll not engage people too intellectually bankrupt to address what I actually say, hence why I've been ignoring several "responses" to my posts.


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16 Aug 2012, 3:01 pm

ValentineWiggin wrote:
BlueMax wrote:
ValentineWiggin wrote:
There are about five strawmen in there.

Then you should be easily able to defeat them with sensible argument - right? ;)

What argument is there to be made? "You can't read" ?

Especially when the entire thread diversion took place because someone was shaming women FOR having body hair. :lol:

If pointing out body hair is brought about by puberty is "coercion", I might as well just let the Flat Earth Theorists fly back to their flock and claim victory.

Nah, I'll not engage people too intellectually bankrupt to address what I actually say, hence why I've been ignoring several "responses" to my posts.


Having an opposing view doesn't make someone "intellectually bankrupt"... who's to say your "let it grow wild and free" argument is the correct one and only one allowed? :?



Last edited by BlueMax on 16 Aug 2012, 3:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ValentineWiggin
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16 Aug 2012, 3:04 pm

BlueMax wrote:

Having an opposing view doesn't make someone "intellectually bankrupt"...

No, strawmanning does, which was the subject. Keep up.

BlueMax wrote:
who's the say your "let it grow wild and free" argument is the correct one and only one allowed? :?


Oh, look! ANOTHER one!! !


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16 Aug 2012, 3:08 pm

ValentineWiggin wrote:
BlueMax wrote:

Having an opposing view doesn't make someone "intellectually bankrupt"...

No, strawmanning does, which was the subject. Keep up.

BlueMax wrote:
who's the say your "let it grow wild and free" argument is the correct one and only one allowed? :?


Oh, look! ANOTHER one!! !


So, rather than have a discussion you're going to hurl insults? Okay - you have fun. I'm going to take pride in my body and go trim some excess facial hair. You can just stay there, be mad at everyone and sing, "Every follicle is saaaacred."



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16 Aug 2012, 3:11 pm

Femininity is accomplished through a dark ritual whereby a man is ritually castrated, and the testosterone absorbed by a gem to be eaten by the avatar of Atheogocoles. In return for the absorbed essences of these helpless men, he grants beauty and sexual prowess, a hairless, toned body, a cute yoga bum and farts that smell like strawberries to women.


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16 Aug 2012, 3:14 pm

Vigilans wrote:
Femininity is accomplished through a dark ritual whereby a man is ritually castrated, and the testosterone absorbed by a gem to be eaten by the avatar of Atheogocoles. In return for the absorbed essences of these helpless men, he grants beauty and sexual prowess, a hairless, toned body, a cute yoga bum and farts that smell like strawberries to women.


"And with that, Vigilans, in the culmination of years' of triumph and heartbreak and zealous ambition, definitively won the Scrabble game."


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