Kung Fu / San Shou?

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I don't know if I haven't been watching this thread enough but, I've seen Tae Kwon Do mentioned several times, I've seen Karate, I've seen Aikido, I'm king of amazed that no one really seems to have as much to say on Chinese or Filipino martial arts?

I came from the experience of trying Tae Kwon Do as a kid, my parents kept trying to get me into it, I didn't like it - mainly that the belt factories act like its bootcamp-lite and I felt like I'd get myself tore up trying to use any of it. I really hadn't known anything about Kung Fu until maybe a couple years ago where a friend of ours introduces me and my friend to my current teacher. I've been in it now for a little over a year now and I'm constantly amazed by what I'm learning. Any time I start to worry about whether or not its enough for a guy like me to actually know how to fight - I see that I was barely scraping the surface of what there is to know.

Right now our instructor teaches a handful of things together in unison but broken into several classes. He has a Kali class, Kali is very heavily laced with Kung Fu and what we do with the eskrima sticks, practice knives, and empty hands is the most practical I've seen to date. We don't snap out punches and kicks (nor do we ever really chamber - everything's efficient), we're more likely to lead in with forearms to the neck or cross the person's line and punch to the pelvic bone, upward elbow the underside of the arm, do limb destruction with the elbows or knuckles (ie. hitting the hand or clapping a joint, lead punches into elbows, use the elbows for slice and dice of the arm and joints), we also utilize a lot of Wing Chun trapping concepts, and when we take someone down you may see someone practicing what looks like kneeling on one knee and pivoting to the other - every movement is a break of some type. With that as well there are all kinds of sweeps, leg hooks, 'sectoring', kicks are never above the waist and if anything are far more often utilized to colaps a person's stance or break a knee. In addition to that class we have a Shaolin class where we're starting to learn the forms, also a Tai Chi/ Chi Quong class (he teaches the form with fighting applications).

To me these arts, the Chinese and Filipino blend and this particular variation, are pretty much everything I could have wanted in terms of learning a very raw and effective system. Of course I couldn't really compete in tournaments because most of what I'd be doing is technically illegal in that sense but at the same time if I ever needed it - just like different situations call for different medicine, if a dip is accosting me at a bar I can take care of him gently, just like if someone comes at me with rather serious ill intent I could quite easily either put them in a coma or kill them with this stuff. God forbid the later happen but, IMO, to have that kind of ability out of a martial art vs., say, one of my friends who got his black belt in Tae Kwon Do and worries about what he's learned and what may or may not get him in trouble in a fight - its hardly a contest.

A savory tidbit I'll add regarding the Kali/Arnis:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQltqe2FFcE[/youtube]

I do Wing Chun and admire Arnis/Eskerma a lot. There are similarities. One valid criticism of Wing Chun is weapons are thought late, so very few are really interested in mastering it. I think FMA styles are refreshing in their approach. I see no reason why you couldn't teach knives earlier in Wing Chun. My lineage tends to teach dummy earlier than most.

I posted in various threads about it but haven't yet started a topic. There is a fare amount of generalisation made about Chinese martial arts. I don't waste my time trying to defend it as a whole.

I always say fighting is about reactions not martial arts itself. Martial arts offers tools with which to react with, condition you not to freeze, help improve things like proprioception, and some styles a have specific training methods to help you improve reactions.

I have a better way of describing the fundamentals: You can’t fight without structure and you can’t fight without movement/fluidity, so therefore structure shouldn’t compromise movement and movement shouldn’t compromise structure. On top of that there are no set routines or set outcomes.

That's why it needs both a lot of practice and variety within the system. Practice of course is also the difference between whether it just comes out in a situation or whether you have to think about it. Thankfully we have close to eleven hours per week if we want it, which is helpful to say the least.

A while back I joined a martial arts gym and the first class I ever took was some kind of Filipino boxing. It was all kinds of wild arm/joint locks that were super complicated and I was very confused

I also did a bit of the kali/eskrima while I was there but it wasn't my favorite. Most of what I did there was muay thai, but I was so bad at it because I liked the rhythmic bounce/feeling of stalking so much that I would kind of fixate on it and lose focus on what I was supposed to do

The Filipino boxing was awesome though and it sucks I couldn't get further into it. That class had a rotation of styles and I was never there for another session of that particular one. I had to stop going like 2 months after I started because I horribly broke and dislocated a finger in an unrelated incident and couldn't make a fist for months, much less punch anything.

Wing Chun trapping concepts can basically be derived from Chi Sau application. I've seem some pretty amusing scenarios, the sky is the limit. One thing that is important is knowing the difference between control and holding on. It is quite a common mistake that even advanced students can make from time to time. Sensitivity allows you to apply pressure when necessary, holding on is a constant grasp so your opponent can manipulate your position, joints, etc. It doesn’t matter if they are able to pull their hand out, if you are still retain the control over them.

I don't think of it in terms of a country of region but more what works for you. I'm interested in Wing Chun, BJJ, Arnis/Eskerma, Aikido even.

You do have to rise above some of the absurd politic which can exist in the martial arts world. I'm really glad I can be open with my teachers, offer suggestion, etc. Having been in a more closed scenario before.

Still it is never that far away...

Looking around online a bit more I actually think calling what we're doing Kung Fu or San Shou is likely a misnomer.

Realistically I'd have to say its JKD with the strongest leaning being on Kali. I consider myself extremely lucky in that we have an instructor who's willing to meet with us 10 hours a week - encourages that much of us. While he indicates that he can give us dual black sashes in Kali and San Shou, and his Tai Chi and Chi Quong are excellent, I've also noticed - it could just be elements of Kali but I see where he may have even added some Silat or Systema here and there. The only reason why I don't think JKD quite fits the bill - he focuses a lot of footwork, in JKD you supposedly make it up on your own although realistically you could just say that he's trying to start us off with good habits.

First of all Kung/Gung Fu means "Martial Art" usually Chinese martial art. Wing Chun is Chinese martial art.

As I am interested in learning the disciplines separately at least initially I am doing Ip Man Wing Chun which is definitely Kung Fu. Ip Man brought Foshan Wing Chun to Hong Kong. You can think of it as the modern era of Wing Chun. Although Wing Chun is one of the never forms of Kung Fu.

However in practice it is up to you to choose your own path. JKD is MMA with an emphasis of Wing Chun, French Kickboxing, Fencing footwork, Eskrema/Arnis, Korean martial arts, grappling and wrestling gecko-roman/Japanese/freestyle, and many other thins.

In the end many of these disciplines whether developed independently or not have a lot of common ground.

You could do what you are doing MMA, cross training, freestyle, or whatever you see fit.

JKD has a strong Wing Chun core. Ip man was Bruce Lee's Sifu. Initially what became JKD was open fisted. That was because he hadn't completed the weapons (which is why I support teaching them a bit earlier), then he was introduced to Eskrima/Arnis among other things. 'Kali' is simply a modern term for Eskrima/Arnis used mostly in the states.

It is actually a transliteration of a concept he discussed between Dan Inosanto and Lee, similar to a "stop hit" in fencing. It is the idea that passive hard blocking is a poor substitute to simultaneous control and attack found in JKD and WC. Interception is it is not really about blocking as such, it is about meeting and contact and knowing where they are and what they are doing and by virtue of that having control of them. Most of the time you are not actually stopping them, in fact you can positively draw them in. If you don't move/flow you will get hit.

Since you are interested in theses areas I though I would show you a really nice practical demonstration of defence techniques, by a German/Turkish fighter admire but don't have any association with called Emin Boztepe


Knife defence
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsxk7dGY8KQ[/youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsxk7dGY8KQ

Chi Sao
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qaP1X-lEtgc[/youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qaP1X-lEtgc

Movement->circular/jamming footwork defence to kicking or anything
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jB3eW0hfy0U
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jB3eW0hfy0U[/youtube]

More on the topic of Systema, if I get myself to black sash level with the Kali and want to round out my training with something I think it might be this. Especially watching Vladamir Vasiliev and Vadim Starov this stuff looks amazing:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PKfW2R6x_E[/youtube]

Last edited by techstepgenr8tion on 24 Feb 2010, 5:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Yeah, I like this demo, the second had the push arms which I think is ubiquitous now with a lot of the more effective martial arts - likely originated with Wing Chun, migrated to Kali and Systema in different ways.

BTW, I see he does some sectoring in the weapon demo, of course I know there's different terminology for for what 'sectoring' means, in our class at least we've been explaining that as the type of thing where you snake or step on someone's ankle and pry them down - good stuff.

BTW, with all the great and lofty things I've heard about with Systema, and especially since I just bought the Vadim Starov DVD set this gave me a sinking feeling - especially at 2:29:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6O9BaNbx49g[/youtube]
I really thought they had good lockflow and movement in other videos I've seen, I'm still sure there's concepts in training that I can take from the DVD's for my Kali, I just have a few reservations on the telekinetic self-defense techniques (blatant understatement there). Word of mouth has been sterling so this does confuse me a bit.

I love martial arts. I have studied Wing Chun, which I love dearly and currently study Wu Style and Guang Ping Taiji. I like this thread. Touch is easier in martial arts for me. I don't mind someone throwing a punch but I'll jump out of my skin if touched lightly by someone trying to be friendly.

Second one is Chi Sao which is "sticky arms/hands”, it has a parallels with push arms. There is pushing, pulling, jerking, slapping, etc. Like push arms it is not like gripping hard and using brute force to move the person. The emphasis is on relaxation, so you can use you sensitivity to turn on an off the muscles. You are sticking to the opponent so you can feel his movement. Actually that is not quite the full story. If the person disengages leaving the centre wide open you will take the centre rather than following them. That is exactly the skill, sticking without falling under influence. Typically you practices are from hat rolling start but it can develop from any contact. There are countless subcategories that can work on all sorts of aspects. There is poon sao “rolling arms/hands”, which is like chi sao except you aren’t supposed cross over than hands ( you left hand corresponds with their right, etc), or lap (which is pulling/jerking move), but you can use pretty much anything else so long as you stay on the same hand. It is to work how you can control both your arms separately, circling round their arms feeling for weaknesses, sticking and attacking.

You could say any strike that is opposed by a forced reaction is considered “asking hand”. That is where Wing Chun really begins (well it is actually any contact at all not just hands).

The level of Chi Sao you are seeing there is very good, we call that Fan Sao “returning hand”, You can see is simultaneous control and attack, that in itself isn’t Fan Sao, rather the relentless and sustained attack, where you are not just reacting to moves but proactively taking down any defence and destroying their structure. It basically keeps coming at you.

One of the misconceptions is that Chi Sao isn’t part of real combat, which is completely false, but is usually caused by confusion between rolling exercises and Chi Sao as overall fighting concept. In Wing Chun sticking is a major component. It is all over that knife demo. I thought I would pick out one instance for you, because you should be able to relate to it well, but there is load in there to study. I needed to take stills because it too fast to use frame references:


meet with garn sao the knife wielding hand, with simultaneous step and punch. No waiting time getting the strike in there, before he can. Looking straight at the attacker not at the knife, benefit of chi sao practice and greeting moves.

Drawing in further with attacker's momentum. Incoming punch no longer a threat.



Palm strike, note the attackers arm is covered as he glides over it.

Note he doesn't just step he is using Yui Ma, see the turning of his whole body in unison (the clue is to look at the angle of his torso when it started and at the end). This is where the real power comes from in Wing Chun and it aids the simultaneous control and attack.


Makes it look easy. It is pretty amazing considering it started as inner gate. Generally speaking outer gate is safer, but you aren't guaranteed the choice.


Don't worry about it there are elements/people in Aikido and other style who do stuff near identical to that, it doesn't mean they are all at it. “Systema” is a rough grouping of Russian martials art not a single style, although some use the name explicitly. You could think of it as similar to FMA.

Derren Brown the physiological illusionist has demonstrated how it can be done, and he's not even a martial artist. It is amazing what the power of suggestion can goo, but in a real situation you don't have time for that.

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Anyway tech, I think you are perhaps giving a bit too much credit to Wing Chun. I think influence is more like it. Everything coming from is far fetched. Wing Chun as we know it now is comparatively new. Every style is part of the martial arts evolution. Martial art in the east originated in India, went over the Himalayas to places like Burma and Nepal (Bando), dominating Indochina, it ebbed and flowed between China and Southeast Asia, and eventually to Japan. All of these would have being influenced by local folk traditions like wrestling, which are in Turkic, Mongolian nomadic traditions, among others. The terain also influences the styles. For instance Korea is quite hilly in places. Silat we know was influenced by Chiniese martial arts and therefore it is likely that, what became, Arnis/Eskrima was too. This would have been fairly early on.

Systema itself has clearly outside influences mixing with folk traditions; unfortunately Stalin didn’t like that idea that stuff from Russia could have origin other than Russia. So he had anyone who spoke of contrary views killed, including martial artists refusing to deny their foreign teachers. Unfortunately this attitude prevails as an undercurrent, and Russian historical teaching is still quite limited and there is an obsession with mythology, rather than social history. On the one hand there is embarrassment and coyness over what Stalin did, on the other quite a lot of the anti-culture that he encouraged still prevails.

In that system video I like Vladamir Vasiliev the most (he clearly knows some (Brazilian) Jujitsu too), the first one is good, the last one is sound and probably the most realistic (nice power slapping). I like people who do sound stuff and stick to what they know; it is not all about looking amazing. Vadim Starov is an interesting character, actually one branch of Sytema was similar ethos to traditional Aikido so I can sort of understand. His structure is very odd, and pretty unique to his physiology. He would probably creep the attacker out and win that way. I wouldn’t be surprised if he is double jointed, it reminds me a bit of drunken master. I think there is tension in his shoulders and they are ridding quite high. Usually that is stress related, but it might just be his physiology. Lok flow wise what about Aikido or small circle Jujitsu?

As far as flowing if you are a locking you don’t have restrict it to do that you can mix other strikes in there. More pain make things easier, and it cumulative.

Actually it was people like Emin Boztepi and Phil Nearing that really pushed for the ground flow Wing Chun. The stuff that was used before wasn’t particularly adequate. Emin Boztepi did a lot of stuff on how to cause pain, and Phil Nearing showed how centreline applies on the ground. This was in the 80s.

People don’t realise that Wing Chun has some pretty nasty locks and joint breaking moves, which can be derived from Chi Sao using same the core hand moves. Probably my favourite breaking move is the hook back and stomping kick. Just a word of warning, never ever hold onto a front kick, unless say it is a low flat tan right under the thigh. I know that you may think that kicking makes your balance vulnerable, and you would be absolutely correct, but do say I didn’t warn you. If you catch a kick for the first time there is wonderment, but really it is just like intercepting any other moves and you can get pull. The pull is enough to completely knock someone clean off their feet, it makes no difference that you are standing on one leg. If you weren’t in the way their head would hit the ground at great force. If you think about it, it is common sense those muscles are pretty powerful, they need to be for every day use. But you don’t need to pull back much, just a small jerk is enough. Then turning in the foot (like a side kick but that is where the similarity end because you are face on at short range), rapidly it stomps down on the knee scraping all the way down the leg. You don’t to take out the knee joint either, say you pulled them even closer, if done well there is enough force to shatter the shin bone and that could sever the artery. There is virtually nothing you can put in the way of the kick. If for the sake of argument you were fast enough to put your torso close to the leg and hug like Jujitsu (which is far fetched), this doesn’t help because it coming out pretty much parallel to the body, grip isn’t going to be an obstacle. You are perhaps slightly better off if the opposite leg is the one in front, but not really. Regardless of the other person structure it is going to strike something. So it is not worth the risk, if you happen to catch a kick pak it to the side and or down, or just move in with you body. There is no time to rotate the leg. if you caught it underneath you may try move in an push up suing a lan sao type thing to knock them off their balance, but I wouldn't bother taking the risk. higher and committed kicks are different. Side kicks and the like other styles have their defences against holding on like flick backs and donkey kicks.

I like in system those strikes to the solar plexus that know the wind out. In Win Chun we have these, they are applied the differently with the same principles in many other styles like shaolin even. In Wing Chun techniques like this come under the general term of “emergency techniques”. That is a core of Bui Tze “shooting/darting fingers”. Basically if you messed up, or for whatever reason you structure is compromised, and you have lost the centre, or have very restricted moment this when you need something to get you out of a sticky situation. You can strike points like the solar plexus with your fingers.

Just an example: The basic Bui the eyes, is very much psychological because maybe if you are lucky you will scratch their eye enough for the opponent to freak out. But really a scratched eye isn’t fatal, quite often it is recoverable, and it has happened once or twice by accident at my club, but not for many years. The point is that isn’t going to stop everybody, especially not if they have nothing to loose. Being able to take out an eye in an instant takes some skill, the eye is squidgy and more resilient that you may think, and they natural reaction is to close the eyelid, and they can move their head easily. Therefore you need very good and quick penetration.

Here is a video of Samuel Kwok. He is the head of my lineage in the UK, and the world rep of the Ip family Wing Chun.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5uTr5fA1Lw[/youtube]
You can see there he breaks a board suspended by a wire at short distance, which is the kind of penetration you need to Bui Tze. The first guy he Chi Sao with is Phil Nearing, Kwok wasn’t his original Sifu but he has become somewhat a disciple since.


Some other examples. The board is free swinging just suspended from a wire. He doesn’t do this demo too often, I don’t want you get the wrong idea. Like I said Bui Tze it is not really for breaking bones, but penetrating those flexible but durable points that could end a fight. 1 inch punches that are typically shown in demos are of limited usefulness, but inch energy can be on the end of pretty much any strike within the full Wing Chun range.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLR9VINPCkM[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bg-4Ii1RYIE[/youtube]

A second use of “emergency techniques ” also hinted in the Systema clip, is as pacifiers. Like I said they exist in many other styles. Ex-training colleague who has done a lot of martial arts, and runs a school for Shoalin, Tai Ch’i, and Wing Chun, had an altercation in a bar. There guy was getting verbally abusive about to kick off, so he pushed into the guys solar plexus with the thumb like they do in shaolin, the guy's mood changed instantly. He said he didn’t want to fight and was sorry.

Not to be the fifth member of the Gravediggaz, I know this topic has been over for a while, but I was going to mention - in our class we do like the kicks a lot - but, like you were suggesting there is a certain variety and most are below the waist. A stopper kick to the stomach or high thigh is about as high as we'd go, other than that dragon kicks (you may know what they are - kind of an odd movement of turning the tow outward and yes, its a stomp) are great for taking out knees, folding knees, we also like to take our knees and not just do front knees but do round knees not necessarily to the side of the pelvis but the teacher was really meaning to open our minds to hitting the lower back and - if its a left knee to their right back with your right hand jamming their right arm - giving them a forearm strike across the neck with the left arm - a possible take down and at least something that's enough to jar the heck out of em, allow you to touch back down and take it in whatever direction you wish.

Something else though too, are you familiar with sectoring and threading with the legs? We have that in our upper level belts, still practice the beginning of it at the lower - that's definitely not something most average fighters would even imagine coming at them, and they'd have a heck of a time fighting someone when the person's doing such a great job of tripping their shins that they can't even stand up. It seems like you'd at least have to occupy their focus up top and sector or thread while they're focus is up on your arms - still, a heck of a powerful set of tools and one of the reasons where - barring that something obscene doesn't happen like having to move for a job - I'd like to practice for many years after my black belt (when I get it) just to make sure that I have enough practice that things like this would be natural and intuitive if called upon.

On another note with grabbing a kick - there are a lot of nice take downs that can be worked from that angle although yes - the ones that are intended to stomp down on the leg need recognition and proper care first. For grabbing a kick and doing something this is one of those areas where the 'circle' concept is great for a lot of upper body and lower body movements as well (taking a right kick, lifting it up and around to their left your right, and pulling it through), also attacking the outside of the knee when its up (outside if bent - if straight - they're in even worse shape).

The nice thing - we're actually starting to do something like a controlled random sparring - I like that a lot. Since I learned the basics I realized that I still didn't have much of a sense of that, but, it seems to be coming quickly and, the more of that I do the more confident I feel that I could take what I know and handle myself on the street if need be.