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Sweetleaf
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24 May 2012, 7:46 pm

AnotherKind wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
I've heard hallucinations when going to sleep or around the time you wake up are fairly normal, so unless it starts getting more frequent and happening at other times as well I would not worry too much about it. Though if it is really concerning you a lot screw my opinion that you shouldn't worry and talk to someone more professional about it.

Thanks for the answer. It could be related to my PTSD as well but i wonder if stress couldn't lead to schizophrenia - or is it just of a genetic matter.

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Well if it's in the dark, it's normal. Your brain doesn't get much information so you can see whatever you want. If it continues with lights on, that's a bigger issue.

I don't hear voices, i had just 4-5 nighttime hallucinations in my whole life.
Of course, i didn't take them serious


PTSD can affect sleep, I know that...I have it myself, I've also read it can caused some hallucinations, so yeah I kinda figure if I start getting hallucinations its probably the PTSD and not schizophrenia. I've had odd nighttime hallucinations as well in the past, even before I got PTSD. Weird thing is when I was really young me and my sister sometimes had shared hallucinations, but as little kids we liked to play around with it...one time we are able to convince ourselves we where watching a movie on the ceiling, and proceeded to actually watch the movie. Unfortunatly it seems my sister does not remember much of that :( , just sad to me since I remember having fun with it.


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24 May 2012, 8:00 pm

Robdemanc wrote:
I heard that people with schizophrenia do not know they have it. Is this true? For example, they do not think anything is wrong with them?

I have tried to read about this condition but am not certain I understand what it is. It appears to be something to do with having delusions and seeing bizarre asociations with things. Also having visual and audital halucinations. Once I read somewhere that when scizophrenics watch television they think that the people on it are talking directly to them.

Can anyone clear it up for me?


I've known several schizophrenics - was roommates with one for about a year, actually. Generally they know, but they get into episodes every now and then (especially if they go off medication) where they seem to externalize things, i.e. their delusional beliefs are actually correct, and everyone else is either blind or conspiring against them (which becomes part of the delusional beliefs).

As far as the television thing, my former roommate did end up being hospitalized during an episode in which she thought everyone on the news was talking about her (and possibly to her, I don't know, it was after we were roommates).

Basically they make connections between things where no connection actually exists - like pattern recognition gone haywire. That's what's called magical thinking. It's difficult to explain but it's basically like delusional associations, such as assuming that two people who cause them some difficulty are part of a conspiracy even though they don't know each other and the difficulty is easily explainable as something not nefarious at all. Or imagining they can read minds or their minds are being read because of some coincidence.



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24 May 2012, 8:39 pm

edgewaters wrote:
Robdemanc wrote:
I heard that people with schizophrenia do not know they have it. Is this true? For example, they do not think anything is wrong with them?

I have tried to read about this condition but am not certain I understand what it is. It appears to be something to do with having delusions and seeing bizarre asociations with things. Also having visual and audital halucinations. Once I read somewhere that when scizophrenics watch television they think that the people on it are talking directly to them.

Can anyone clear it up for me?


I've known several schizophrenics - was roommates with one for about a year, actually. Generally they know, but they get into episodes every now and then (especially if they go off medication) where they seem to externalize things, i.e. their delusional beliefs are actually correct, and everyone else is either blind or conspiring against them (which becomes part of the delusional beliefs).

As far as the television thing, my former roommate did end up being hospitalized during an episode in which she thought everyone on the news was talking about her (and possibly to her, I don't know, it was after we were roommates).

Basically they make connections between things where no connection actually exists - like pattern recognition gone haywire. That's what's called magical thinking. It's difficult to explain but it's basically like delusional associations, such as assuming that two people who cause them some difficulty are part of a conspiracy even though they don't know each other and the difficulty is easily explainable as something not nefarious at all. Or imagining they can read minds or their minds are being read because of some coincidence.


Sometimes I have to wonder if some of them don't actually have people 'conspiring' against them. I mean I realise it comes with delusional beliefs but I just hate to think some of these people really do have people abusing them and that gets disregarded...because everyone thinks it's just their delusions. I mean I have been in situations where I really am being mistreated but no one quite believes it because I myself seem unstable. I imagine sometimes people with schizophrenia could run into that but maybe to a worse extent.

I mean I have talked to people I know have schizophrenia and people I suspect have it...and sometimes I wonder how many people actually take the time to talk to them and try and understand them. I mean how often do they get to have a lighthearted conversation about random BS? I mean I talked to this one guy who I'm pretty sure was homeless and schizophrenic based on some of the weird perceptions he was having and some of the weird things he said and he just seemed happy someone was cool to just sit there and talk for a few minutes rather than slowly back away thinking 'what the hell is wrong with that freak.'


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edgewaters
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24 May 2012, 9:12 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
Sometimes I have to wonder if some of them don't actually have people 'conspiring' against them.


Well ... yeah, actually, they often do. They often get into incidents with people, so they sometimes gather enemies. That's the ironic part. They often don't pick up on actual conspiracies, just imaginary ones.

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sometimes I wonder how many people actually take the time to talk to them and try and understand them. I mean how often do they get to have a lighthearted conversation about random BS? I mean I talked to this one guy who I'm pretty sure was homeless and schizophrenic and he just seemed happy someone was cool to just sit there and talk for a few minutes.


Many of them are pretty normal most of the time. And generally possess the full range of social abilities, when their condition isn't acting up.

Also while some of the homeless are pretty isolated, particularly those in really really bad mental states, not all of them are as socially isolated as you might think. The street has its own subculture.



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24 May 2012, 9:57 pm

edgewaters wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
Sometimes I have to wonder if some of them don't actually have people 'conspiring' against them.


Well ... yeah, actually, they often do. They often get into incidents with people, so they sometimes gather enemies. That's the ironic part. They often don't pick up on actual conspiracies, just imaginary ones.

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sometimes I wonder how many people actually take the time to talk to them and try and understand them. I mean how often do they get to have a lighthearted conversation about random BS? I mean I talked to this one guy who I'm pretty sure was homeless and schizophrenic and he just seemed happy someone was cool to just sit there and talk for a few minutes.


Many of them are pretty normal most of the time. And generally possess the full range of social abilities, when their condition isn't acting up.

Also while some of the homeless are pretty isolated, particularly those in really really bad mental states, not all of them are as socially isolated as you might think. The street has its own subculture.



Oh I know of the street subculture...that is why I find comfort in the fact that if I end up homeless, I could chill down town with the cool homeless people. Who knows maybe one of them would recognize me from the time I gave them change to help. But yeah I guess I've had a lot bad experiances so I can sympathize with people not understanding because of your mental condition. I mean I don't know I guess what concerns me is the attitude people seem to have that if someone with schizophrenia is resistant to treatment or not taking their meds they are purposely making their condition worse just to spite people. I just don't think that is usually the case and I feel like there should be more attempts at understanding how they feel and what they would want in life rather then 'control' your symptoms or your a terrible bad person that should be locked away.' I mean it just seems really harsh for people who are probably suffering a lot already.


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24 May 2012, 10:20 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
I mean I don't know I guess what concerns me is the attitude people seem to have that if someone with schizophrenia is resistant to treatment or not taking their meds they are purposely making their condition worse just to spite people. I just don't think that is usually the case and I feel like there should be more attempts at understanding how they feel and what they would want in life rather then 'control' your symptoms or your a terrible bad person that should be locked away.


Schizophrenia isn't like AS - it onsets quite late (sometimes as late as middle age) and because its occurence varies from area to area, its probably environmental in origin. In other words, it's not an innate difference in the person themself, like AS is. Some do have full, permanent recovery - about 25%. The notion of a disorder applies more suitably to schizophrenia than it does to autism, which is innate.

My observation was that medication and treatment did a fair amount of good (although limited and not without side effects) and going off meds often heralded seriously bad developments for the person and sometimes others as well. I don't think they go off because they want to annoy anyone - I think they go off because they feel better when they do, and imagine they can control the symptoms without having to deal with the side effects of the medication.



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24 May 2012, 10:27 pm

edgewaters wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
I mean I don't know I guess what concerns me is the attitude people seem to have that if someone with schizophrenia is resistant to treatment or not taking their meds they are purposely making their condition worse just to spite people. I just don't think that is usually the case and I feel like there should be more attempts at understanding how they feel and what they would want in life rather then 'control' your symptoms or your a terrible bad person that should be locked away.


Schizophrenia isn't like AS - it onsets quite late (sometimes as late as middle age) and because its occurence varies from area to area, its probably environmental in origin. In other words, it's not an innate difference in the person themself, like AS is. Some do have full, permanent recovery. The notion of a disorder applies more suitably to schizophrenia than it does to autism, which is innate.

I am aware of that...also I have yet to hear of full permanent recovery...even when I took psychology recently its supposedly very uncommon for one to make a full recovery. So I feel at some point their feelings and such should be acknowledged. I realise AS and Schizophrenia are different disorders however one with either is still an individual person.

My observation was that medication and treatment did a fair amount of good (although limited and not without side effects) and going off meds often heralded seriously bad developments for the person and sometimes others as well. I don't think they go off because they want to annoy anyone - I think they go off because they feel better when they do, and imagine they can control the symptoms without having to deal with the side effects of the medication.


I am sure medication and treatment can help, but you know if the side effects outweigh the benefits why should someone be forced to take the medication? It just must be horrible to have side effects and then be accused of having delusions just to not take the medications or something. I mean I know for me regardless of what mental disorder I have I would not want to take something with terrible side effects because it would be like intentionally hurting myself on a daily basis. Anyone would quit taking a drug if they felt better without it, its ridiculous to expect someone with schizophrenia to comply without question to taking medications that cause them more pain.

I mean that worries me, I feel like if a doctor really wanted to be a bully they could easily diagnose me with schizophrenia just so it would be justifiable for them to push horrible drugs on me and have me locked up if I refuse to take them. But that might be my own paranoia, but I am going to blame my paranoia on the PTSD and past experiences.


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24 May 2012, 10:42 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
I am sure medication and treatment can help, but you know if the side effects outweigh the benefits why should someone be forced to take the medication?


Not many people are actually forced to take medication except those who are a threat to themselves or others. Stopping meds is often discouraged by people around them, particularly those who have watched them go through a severe episode, but it takes a proven threat to be able to force someone. Severe episodes are quite bad. People barricading themselves in rooms out of sheer terror, complete inability to function, etc. That sort of Hell generally seems much worse than the side effects of medication, and they can easily end up on the streets, and beyond help.

But there are people who function perfectly fine without any meds at all. Others who don't have severe episodes. I guess it depends on the severity of the condition.

Also it's not a bad strategy to make nice with the homeless. The street subculture only exists because it's useful to various groups of people and, as I'm sure you know, it's much broader than just the homeless.



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24 May 2012, 11:11 pm

edgewaters wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
I am sure medication and treatment can help, but you know if the side effects outweigh the benefits why should someone be forced to take the medication?


Not many people are actually forced to take medication except those who are a threat to themselves or others. Stopping meds is often discouraged by people around them, particularly those who have watched them go through a severe episode, but it takes a proven threat to be able to force someone. Severe episodes are quite bad. People barricading themselves in rooms out of sheer terror, complete inability to function, etc. That sort of Hell generally seems much worse than the side effects of medication, and they can easily end up on the streets, and beyond help.

But there are people who function perfectly fine without any meds at all. Others who don't have severe episodes. I guess it depends on the severity of the condition.

Also it's not a bad strategy to make nice with the homeless. The street subculture only exists because it's useful to various groups of people and, as I'm sure you know, it's much broader than just the homeless.


I've heard of some weird cases of forced meds...it just seems like the way the not using meds is treated might not always help. I mean It just seems like no one even makes an attempt to understand why the individual might not want to take the medication, also maybe to others the side effects seem less severe then that but about what the one taking the drug feels? should that not be taken into consideration at all.

I mean not to be difficult but, Ive wanted to barricade myself in rooms before just so I can be left the hell alone for a bit so I don't have to be seen by others all freaked out in the corner because of my PTSD...so maybe that particular behavior is not always so psychotic.


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24 May 2012, 11:34 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
I mean It just seems like no one even makes an attempt to understand why the individual might not want to take the medication, also maybe to others the side effects seem less severe then that but about what the one taking the drug feels? should that not be taken into consideration at all.


It depends on the severity. It's pretty hard to stand by and do nothing when someone's life could be in jeopardy, when it could be easily prevented. It's not always side effects that make them stop taking meds ... sometimes it seems like they just want to trip. Which would be fine, if they didn't bad trip so often or for so long.

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I mean not to be difficult but, Ive wanted to barricade myself in rooms before just so I can be left the hell alone for a bit so I don't have to be seen by others all freaked out in the corner because of my PTSD...so maybe that particular behavior is not always so psychotic.


Perhaps not always but the one time I knew of it happening was a fellow who barricaded himself in his room because he thought his roommates were trying to kill him, he was in sheer terror, no food or water and he was relieving himself in there. They eventually called the police to get him out once it hit 2 and a half days and he didn't have any source of water in there.



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24 May 2012, 11:57 pm

edgewaters wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
I mean It just seems like no one even makes an attempt to understand why the individual might not want to take the medication, also maybe to others the side effects seem less severe then that but about what the one taking the drug feels? should that not be taken into consideration at all.


It depends on the severity. It's pretty hard to stand by and do nothing when someone's life could be in jeopardy, when it could be easily prevented. It's not always side effects that make them stop taking meds ... sometimes it seems like they just want to trip. Which would be fine, if they didn't bad trip so often or for so long.

Well doing nothing and forcing someone to take medications with unpleasant side effects regardless of how they feel about it for a prolonged amount of time, are two different things in my book. Also I realise there are different reasons for things but I don't feel like most with schizophrenia are refusing meds that help them just so they can 'trip' but I haven't really looked into it a whole lot. I just know what some of the side effects for some of the drugs used to treat schizophrenia are, so I can see it as a valid reason not to take the drugs. Maybe the doctors should try medications that don't have such severe side effects...there's an idea.

I mean if I lost control of my PTSD and the only thing that could be done is sedate me with something and put me in a psych ward till I calm down i'd be fine with that. If they wanted me to continue taking a medication with severe side effects for some prolonged length of time to prevent it then I might have an issue as I'd prefer something that does not do as much damage.

Quote:
I mean not to be difficult but, Ive wanted to barricade myself in rooms before just so I can be left the hell alone for a bit so I don't have to be seen by others all freaked out in the corner because of my PTSD...so maybe that particular behavior is not always so psychotic.


Perhaps not always but the one time I knew of it happening was a fellow who barricaded himself in his room because he thought his roommates were trying to kill him, he was in sheer terror, no food or water and he was relieving himself in there. They eventually called the police to get him out once it hit 2 and a half days and he didn't have any source of water in there.


Well that is a pretty extreme case but I don't know that forcing meds with bad side effects is necessarily the cure for that issue. Especially considering the dry mouth some of those meds cause after not having water for 2 days. I mean maybe in his perspective any meds given was a relief, but I'm just saying I don't know that medications are only forced when its absolutely necessarily to protect someone from them self or whatever.


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28 May 2012, 3:29 am

It's important to remember that ALL mental health conditions are not real diseases in the sense that there are NO biological tests that can be carried out to say this person has this condition. They are ALL diagnosed on a list of symptoms, symptoms that are based on what in many instances are normal behaviours, but which can become abnormal at times. There is no real line between when something becomes a problem and when it does not. Depression is sadness it really is as simple as that. And we ALL get sad all the time. That is normal. What is not normal is to be sad for months and years on end. The question becomes when does something become not normal. At present they say it is 2 weeks, but since they also claim that over 50% of the population have depression, doesn't that make it a normal behaviour and so it is now abnormal to be happy??! !!

Scizophrenia is diagnosed when someone has been psychotic for at least 6 months. Psychosis in itself is a very common experience and the majority of the time does not develop into schizophrenia. For most people it is a one off experience. And like depression it also ranges from normal experiences to very abnormal ones. We have all had experiences of thinking we have heard someone talking to us or hearing a sound and not being able to find where it came from. If you go to church the priest will stand up the front and say "God was talking to me last night and he said.". How can something that does not exist talk to you?? How is believing in God OK, but believing in something else not OK. When does something become a delusion. A delusion is believing in something that is not real, but no one can prove that God is real. It is just something people believe in and it is perfectly acceptable to believe in that. And if they really are having God talking to them, are they not hearing voices, that are not there, that are not real.

This is not for one second to minise the effect that psychosis can have on someone, as it can and is very distressing for some people. Equally it is not distressing for many people. Research has consistently found that over 70% of people who regularly hear voices do not hear distressing voices. And sure the experience of hearing voices can be distressing for some people, but for some it is not. It is not for us to determine what is and what is not distressing for them. Only they know what they are experiencing.

Recovery from psychosis and even schizophrenia is actually very common, just not in the US and many other developed countries. The World Health Organisation has three times done research which has shown that recovery is significantly higher in third world countries than in first world countries, such as the US. They initally did the research expecting to the find the opposite. The WHOLE purpose of the research was to prove that our current medication based treatments, were great and that developed countries should be funding these treatments in third world countries. Any reseach has many things they need to control. There are a million and one variables that can control what is found and so research is designed to minimise those variables. When the research did not turn out as expected they went back and looked at variables and tightened it even more to ensure that no bias could exist. Problem was the same results came back. They then did it again and in the third study there is nothing at all that could possibly have been controlled any better, and the results were the same. They also found that in those countries that used medication the least the outcomes were the best and in those that used it the most the outcomes were the worst. The US did not have the worst outcomes as not as many people were medicated, and those that were not medicated had better outcomes, even though the ONLY reason they were not medicated is because they refused to take it, and were going against medical advice.

One region in Finland (like a state in the US) now has the lowest rates of psychosis anywhere in the world. It is at the point that they basically do not have schizophrenia anymore. And there are programs that are now setting up that same model in the US hoping it will have the same effect there. Put simply NO ONE is medicated for the first 3 weeks and very few people are ever medicated at all. They offer a form of family therapy and keep the person at home. They would hospitalise someone about 1% of the time the US does. If necessary they put nurses in the persons home around the clock to help the family. They have a team of therapists, including a psychologist, nurse and psychiatrist and they meet with the family for about 2 hours a day for the first few weeks. What is important to remember here is that this place has the SAME rates of psychosis as the US and other developed countries. What they do not have are people becoming disabled by it. Less than 30% of people are EVER exposed to antispsychotic medications, and less than 15% are on them for more than 2 years. Even if they are prescribed them, they would be at doses that would not be considered theraputic in the US. As for recovery well in over 70% of cases the person is back at work or school without any support at all within 3 months. They do not need any specialised employment services, they do not need any supports at schools or colleges, they are simply normal and not psychotic any more.

Research within the US that has followed people for over 20 years on discharge from hospital has also found that those who discontinue taking medication against medical advice also have a significantly higher chance of recovery than those who do not.

There are programs in EVERY developed country using a specialised form of Cognitive Behavioural Therapy to help people to live with and control the voices and that is having massive benefits. The best thing that has happened in developed countries to help recovery is the Hearing Voices Network, that is people who have lived experience learning how to control and live with them. And slowly they can begin with assistance to only allow the voices to have a voice for a short period each day. It starts with the voices being gone for 2 minutes and slowly increases. It is basically about the person telling the voices to go away. And it sounds stupid, and while it can't do it totally they can stop them taking control. They do talk back to the voices and they do tell them where to go. Those that use it rave about it and people who have been on 10 different antispsychotics all at the same time and nothing has helped, have been able to go back to work, college, etc, using this technique and also stop taking ALL medications.

That does not mean medications have played no role. Research shows they have some role over the short term. There is NO research that shows that they keep people well and the FDA will not allow drug companies to advertise that as they have never been able to present any evidence of it. The research that does exist shows they have a benefit over a 6-8 period. Like anything though there are people who do well on them, and Finland is the best example of that. What they have found is that most people do well without them, but there is a small group who do well on very very low doses. What they are now trying to do is to find out what those groups of people are, so perhaps we can find better ways of helping them.

And this should be suprising. One cannot develop a drug to treat something without first knowing what it is you want to treat. In order to develop antibiotics one had to put bacteria into a test tube and then they could put in different substances and find something that killed it. One cannot put hearing voices or thinking strange thoughts into a test tube!! There are NO physical differences between those with psychosis and those without at diagnosis. There are changes that are shown in brain scans on people who are medicated. Those changes are not there on people who are not medicated. Those changes also get worse the longer a person is on medication and the higher the dosage of the medication. The exact same changes are also shown on people who have NEVER been psychotic and yet are also on the medications. Most of these medications are now approved for the treatment of over 30 different conditions, including Autism, Intellectual Disability, Depression, Anxiety, etc. How can a drug that supposedly stops voices in the head possibly help so many varied conditions. EVERY psychiatrist I have ever spoken to and these are ALL ones who use these drugs on EVERYONE who is psychotic have said the aim of the medication is to sedate people so they can naturally recover? That does not sound like stopping voices to me.

As I said there are people who do do well on these drugs, but we do need to remember that there are many other ways of supporting people. And of course if someone does not want to take medication then surely the most logical thing to do would be to try other ways of supprting them first. IF you have tried all of those other things and they have not worked most people would be more happy to take them then. And of course ALL the medications have different side effect profiles and what is tolerable to one person is not tolerable to another. If a person can't cope with a drug then try another one, it really is that simple. And above all else it is the ethical way of treating someone.

And there certainly are people who are wrongly diagnosed. A close friend was one of them. She was diagnosed on the basis of saying that she had been raped. She was raped, and the police were called. She was taken to hospital to be forensically examined and for evidence to be collected. As is the norm a rape crisis counsellor was bought to her. She was acutely upset and so the counsellor requested that a psychiatrist be called in the hope that he could prescribe her something to help to calm her down. He refused to see her with the counsellor there. She knew her attacker and mentioned his name. The psychiatrist knew him and said he would not be capable of doing such a thing and she was delusional. She was susequently locked up for 2 months and forcibly medicated. She was then medicated in the community for 7 years all against her will. As for the acused. He was interviewed by the police. In the police interview which as required by law is videotaped, he said he would kill her for what she said about him. He was charged and released on bail. He had a right to be innocent until proven guilty. There was DNA and other evidence - his sperm was in her and there were bruises and the like. At the trail a number of years later he was found guilty, and given a suspended sentence - he never spent one night in jail. When the jury read out the guilty verdict he stood up and said your dead b***h. At the sentencing hearing he again said he would kill her for what she had done to him. Despite that she was considered the risk to the communtiy and he was not. Where was the evidence produced that she was psychotic it was not. It was assumed that what this doctor said was correct and nothing was asked about HOW he reached the diagnosis. At the final hearing to get the forced treatment order, lifted (which had been a yearly thing and all were fought for yer), he was cross examined and he admitted it was that she was delusional believing she had been raped, and that she was a danger to society, because she said she hated him. Again the interview he had with her was not videoed. There was no evidence she said anything to him - it was her word against the psychiatrist and no one questions them. And even if she had been psychotic, who is the bigger risk the rapist or her? Where were her rights the simple fact was she had none. I supported this friend through all of this and was present at every hearing. She is now off the medication, but permanetly disabled as a result of it. And of course the medical board has no problem with what the psychiatrist did, saying he had no reason to know whether he really had raped her or not, it could have been a delusion and that if she did say she hated someone she was a risk to the community and they needed to be protected!! Given how much the community and even she has been protected by the justice system in relation the rapist, one really question how anyone could consider that fair. Forced treatment varies from juristiction to juristiction and there are many places in the US where it is very common and the hearings are less than 5 minutes in length and no one questions what the psychiatrists have said. Other places it is much harder and they hearings are much better, but even then the standards are nothing compared the justice system. Surely there are more humane ways to keep someone alive than forcing drugs into them.



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28 May 2012, 5:51 am

I think I might be.

Anosognosia, it's called. Different from denial.

Sometimes I feel sane, Sometimes I feel insanely sane.