Narcissism and ASD

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I have both ASD and NPD people in my family (they tend to be dating/married to each other), but there isn't much overlap other than at the surface level. Although I can understand why it might seem like there is to an outsider.

The ASD people can seem to be uncaring, but it's usually because they completely miss the social cues or context of a situation and other people assume it is deliberate and get insulted by it. However, if you explain to them 'you said or did x and it annoyed/hurt that person because y' then they will apologise and usually feel terrible about it.

In comparison, someone like my dad who is a textbook sociopath with strong NPD traits, will never admit to being in the wrong. Even when all evidence is clear that they were. He always has 1000 excuses as to why either he didn't say/do what everyone heard him say/do, or why he wasn't responsible. If that fails, the other person was just too sensitive and it still isn't his fault. At worst he will just shout down whoever is accusing him and/or storm off in a rage. In his head, he is either a perfect saviour or a victim that can do no wrong.

Those with ASD in my circle are always working hard to improve their social skills and understanding and accept they have an issue. As far as I'm aware, all of them have had therapy. Whereas the NPD ones will refuse to ever consider therapy. For decades my dad argued he couldn't do therapy for his anger/control issues even if he needed it because he worked long hours. Now that he is retired and has all the time in the world, he still refuses. It's everyone else's problem to deal with, not his.

So to me it's the polar opposite attitudes of those with ASD and NPD towards the result of their traits are what sets the two conditions apart. The effects on other people may be the same, but one will apologise and do their best to repair the damage, the other just walks away as if nothing happened.

Having said that, I'm sure there are a few cases of people with both ASD and NPD who a) are oblivious to social cues and b) don't care that it results in people getting hurt or even enjoy it. I've met one person at a group event several years ago that seemed to fit both categories. He openly admitted that he couldn't care less if he hurt people, felt no guilt for anything, and was constantly antagonistic towards everyone just for entertainment. But most individuals I've met with ASD have the problem of being overly empathic (once they realise what's going on) and will take on all of the blame. Which unfortunately makes us a perfect target for those with NPD, since we will excuse and forgive their behaviour over and over again. I was my dad's (and other people's) scapegoat for years before other people pointed out how messed up the situation was.

The difference in confidence is fairly extreme too. My dad has a huge ego and in his mind can do nothing wrong. He will exaggerate and brag about every little thing he does, and truly believes it. The ASD people I've met (including myself) tend to have very low confidence and have had to (constantly) work hard to rebuild it. I've had a LOT of therapy to improve how I see myself and to switch from constantly repeating negative comments in my head to positive ones. I'll never have the massive ego that my dad has, but I'm no longer at the opposite extreme (which certain people hate). In fact, a therapist taught me an interesting trick to highlight if people around you have NPD traits is to make a positive comment about yourself. Even if it's in a jokey way. Anyone with a healthy ego will cheer you on, laugh or just not care. Anyone with NPD traits will get really triggered as they have to be the 'best' person in the room at all times. You'll then know who to be wary of.

When it comes to people with ASD being deliberately manipulative, this definitely can happen if they make an effort to learn. I'm still pretty terrible at lying as I'm a naturally 'expressive' person. But I studied language at uni and I've learned how to hide my emotions and not react at all in certain situations and I can make/understand jokes (the above, for example). Mainly so that people such as my dad don't know that I'm hurt, as that just adds fuel to their fire. So my 'poker face' is strong when I remember. I can also be charming when I need to be, although I use that to encourage, motivate or cheer people up. So it's manipulation, but for a good purpose. My relatives with ASD are the same to varying success. Whereas my dad will straight up lie to someone's face to make himself look good, lie about people behind their back to get them in trouble, lie about whatever idea/thing he is trying to sell if it benefits him, lie to coerce people into fighting each other, all while being very charming. Which is manipulation for very negative/selfish reasons. I think that's the core difference.

https://youtu.be/XEDda93M_mg?si=F0SRSmT_Rh0MOkhP

Ah, Dr Ramani is a boss! Her videos helped me a lot a few years back. I was always confused by the ASD/NPD traits seeming similar and for a while I was worried I might have NPD despite having none of the other symptoms, as in my teens/early 20s I hurt people without meaning to because I didn't know what was the right response to a situation. But there is a big difference based on over/under empathy.

I likely have borderline personality disorder. I have never abused anyone. However my friends have had to set firm boundaries with me simply because I tend to be a loose canon when in crisis.

Imo.... if someone is actively abusing you, then act accordingly. You don't have to like them or even sympathize with them. But don't treat people with cluster B PDs like we're latent criminals, damn. Especially if we haven't done anything.

i feel like i have some narcissistic traits but my self esteem is too shattered and i admit guilt / am guilty far too often to have npd. but manic depression type thoughts swing me from absolving myself of guilt and also feeling like i'm the worst person in the world half the time

i do want to ask though growing up did anyone else feel like they were smarter than everyone else until proven otherwise like idk other people just weren't that perceptive i thought it was weird how people missed so many details etc

i still do feel like im smarter than others by default despite barely having any actual results to show for it. i kinda like gravitating towards people who i feel are smarter than me when it comes to romance and close/deep friendships so errrr i dont know what any of it means

um tldr i think autism can come with some inherent narc traits but i dont think we necessarily have npd i dont think we are unwilling to admit fault when we need to on average

I don't think it matters if there is an overlap. Discriminating against someone because of something they can't control is not right, unless someone behaves in an abusive way i am not interested in the inner workings of someone's mind.

I also think that putting on a label on someone that automatically says they are evil or prone to criminal behavior or being abusive is too simplifying.

As many late-diagnosed adults are prone to do, I have been revisiting and re-evaluating my past. This includes asking my mother a lot of questions about my childhood. But it quickly became apparent that she was resisting my investigation, and was clearly trying to paint my childhood as normal and happy, which it definitely was not, thus raising some red flags.

A bunch of things about my childhood just never added up. I was a good, quiet kid who nevertheless seemed to always be "in trouble" for some kind of infraction or other. I watch a lot of YouTube videos and vids about narcissistic parents suddenly popped up in my feed. I soon came across videos that explain what narcissistic parents do, (that would be my father), the role their enablers play, (my mother), and how the scapegoat of the family (that’s me), is ultimately affected. (it's pretty bad).

Everything just suddenly came into focus, the second time in less than a year along with the sudden autism revelation. Right now my mind is reeling. While it seems certain that it is good to know all this stuff, it is SO HEAVY I am having a hard time believing I can ever heal or overcome even a fraction of it all.

^^^^ i get this above post but , to be your own person, someway, someday but it will be needed to grow past your past . To whatever degree you might be able to do . IMHO . New Environments , new learnings can be helpful ? i think.
To grow past .."past things"
Perhaps assign those experiences in your mind ., A place under the heading of Learning experiences . In order to be able to accept/ cope with those memories ?

Of course, as you suggest, it's not healthy to let your past define you. Having said that, my life spiralled out of control long before I ever got a chance to understand why, (I sought help at an early age but was misdiagnosed and inappropriately treated and medicated many times), and so the present life circumstances I ended up in became by far the primary source of stress in my life.

It's not as if I don't understand how growth happens, but let's face it, it's super hard to change no matter how motivated you are, even in ideal circumstances free from the stresses of simply trying to survive.

This topic reminds me of how my covert narcissist Ex tried to reinvent herself as on the spectrum when I discovered evidence of my own autism. First they completely disagreed with me. Then when it was irrefutable they tried to find NON-EXISTENT similarities between the two of us. So damn competitive and so eager to play the victim when they are the victimizer. Typical.
Have had a mother, father, sister, brother, ex-husband, ex-girlfriend all narcs. To say they made my entire life a living Hell would be an understatement.
So let’s just say EVERYBODY is on the spectrum and just be done with it. This world is just too bizarre for me. Everything is backwards and turned upside down. Narcs love lies. They are proficient liars who aim to harm others with their words and actions. Intentionally. Not mistakenly. They’re selfish and self-centered. Will give but will definitely keep score and want praises for how “good” they are to you.
Will gaslight without hesitation.
Yes I can lie when necessary. But hate doing it. And I have to practice first. Still lousy at it. To them it’s practically second nature.

This topic sounds like something a narc would conjure up.