schizotypy vs. autism

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The diagnostic criterias in the ICD-10 about schizotype disorder are:

- Inappropriate or constricted affect (the individual appears cold and aloof);
- Behavior or appearance that is odd, eccentric or peculiar;
- Poor rapport with others and a tendency to social withdrawal;
- Odd beliefs or magical thinking, influencing behavior and inconsistent with subcultural norms;
- Suspiciousness or paranoid ideas;
- Obsessive ruminations without inner resistance, often with dysmorphophobic, sexual or aggressive contents;
- Unusual perceptual experiences including somatosensory (bodily) or other illusions, depersonalization or derealization;
- Vague, circumstantial, metaphorical, over-elaborate or stereotyped thinking, manifested by odd speech or in other ways, without gross incoherence;
- Occasional transient quasi-psychotic episodes with intense illusions, auditory or other hallucinations and delusion-like ideas, usually occurring without external provocation.

I can especially identify with the bold ones.

This is my score in the SPQ (Schizotypal Personality Questionaire):


Ideas of reference: 5 out of 9 (unsure: 0)
Excessive social anxiety: 7 out of 8 (unsure: 0)
Odd beliefs or magical thinking: 5.5 out of 7 (unsure: 0)
Unusual perceptual experiences: 8 out of 9 (unsure: 0)
Odd or eccentric behavior: 6 out of 7 (unsure: 0)
No close friends: 3 out of 9 (unsure: 0)
Odd speech : 4.5 out of 9 (unsure: 0)
Constricted affect: 4 out of 8 (unsure: 0)
Suspiciousness: 4 out of 8 (unsure: 0)
Total SPQ-A: 47 out of 74

My scores of my AQ is in my signature.

I listened the last days to an expert discussion about schizophrenia, because my half-brother had schizophrenia. So I'm a bit interested in this disorder. They also talked about the fact that some schizophrenic people have autistic like symptoms in childhood, sometimes with learning disorders, but unlike autistic people they suddenly catch up in teen years/young adoolthood and then develop schizophrenia. Well besides of the schizophrenia, that's exactly what happend in my case. I mostly catched up within a very short period of time, with 14 years of age and had nearly complitly catched up in young adoolthood. But I had many typical autistic signs in childhood and also dyslexic, but was always somehow social.
Sadly I don't really find anything about that statement that some schizophrenics have autistic-like symptoms in childhood...!?
So I wonder if I maybe developed schizotypal personality disorder instead and if this also applies for this disorder?

But my problem is now the overlapp between schizotypy and ASD. Can someone help!?

Last edited by Raziel on 23 Mar 2013, 4:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

These are my scores.

Excessive social anxiety: 6.5 out of 8 (unsure: 0)
Odd beliefs or magical thinking: 0 out of 7 (unsure: 0)
Unusual perceptual experiences: 1 out of 9 (unsure: 0)
Odd or eccentric behavior: 6.5 out of 7 (unsure: 0)
No close friends: 8.5 out of 9 (unsure: 0)
Odd speech : 2 out of 9 (unsure: 0)
Constricted affect: 3.5 out of 8 (unsure: 0)
Suspiciousness: 5.5 out of 8 (unsure: 0)
Total SPQ-A: 37 out of 74

Hello redrobin62,

Your "Ideas of reference" are missing, it's the first one.
But I calculated it, you must have 3,5 out of 9 there.

So exactly, the overlapp is a problem, but you have 0 by "Odd beliefs or magical thinking", so I would guess you don't have StPD.
But what's your AQ though?

I scored as follows:

Ideas of reference: 2 out of 9 (unsure: 0)
Excessive social anxiety: 6.5 out of 8 (unsure: 0)
Odd beliefs or magical thinking: 0 out of 7 (unsure: 0)
Unusual perceptual experiences: 0.5 out of 9 (unsure: 0)
Odd or eccentric behavior: 5.5 out of 7 (unsure: 0)
No close friends: 5.5 out of 9 (unsure: 0)
Odd speech : 5 out of 9 (unsure: 0)
Constricted affect: 4.5 out of 8 (unsure: 0)
Suspiciousness: 1 out of 8 (unsure: 0)
Total SPQ-A: 30.5 out of 74

As for the AQ, I usually score around 40.

I'd expect the difference between ASD and schizotypy to show up mainly on the "Ideas of reference", "Odd beliefs or magical thinking", and "Suspiciousness" parts... but my opinion is certainly not an expert one. It looks like there could be some variation in test scores due not only to differing interpretations of the questions, but also having different reasons for some answers -- for example I feel people notice me when I go out, but that's because I visibly stand out in a very obvious way, and get approached by strangers a lot because of it.

As for schizotypal vs. schizophrenia, the two are thought to be related, and schizotypal is common among family members of schizophrenics... though I'm sure you're already aware of that.

Yay! I don't have StPD. Thanks, Raziel.

Your score: 36
0 - 10 = low
11 - 22 = average (most women score about 15 and most men score about 17)
23 - 31 = above average
32 - 50 is very high (most people with Asperger Syndrome or high-functioning autism score about 35)
50 is maximum

Yeah, I clearly have no schizophrenia, but the fact that my half-brother had that and that I have a more "untypical autistic development" with my sudden catching up as a teenager and my change in symptoms at that time (also maybe Bipolar II but all not totally clear). That's why I think that StPD could be more correct.
But I'm still a bit confused because of my childhood development and I don't really find anything about the childhood of people who develop later in life StPD or schizophrenia. Is it really possible that it looks in some cases similar to autism?

I never talked with a shrink about it. Well I have one, but I'm a bit scared, mostly because I'm worried that he could think that I'm crazy or doesn't take me serious or something else.
I'm thinking about just giving him my SPQ and ask him what he thinks to it!?
I saved my answers:

1. Do you sometimes feel that things you see on the TV or read in the newspaper have a special meaning for you ? Yes
2. I sometimes avoid going to places where there will be many people because I will get anxious. Yes
3. Have you had experiences with the supernatural? Yes
4. Have you often mistaken objects or shadows for people, or noises for voices? Maybe
5. Other people see me as slightly eccentric (odd). Yes
6. I have little interest in getting to know other people. Maybe
7. People sometimes find it hard to understand what I am saying. No
8. People sometimes find me aloof and distant. No
9. I am sure I am being talked about behind my back. No
10. I am aware that people notice me when I go out for a meal or to see a film. No
11. I get very nervous when I have to make polite conversation. Yes
12. Do you believe in telepathy (mind-reading)? Maybe
13. Have you ever had the sense that some person or force is around you, even though you cannot see anyone? Yes
14. People sometimes comment on my unusual mannerisms and habits. Yes
15. I prefer to keep to myself. Maybe
16. I sometimes jump quickly from one topic to another when speaking. Maybe
17. I am poor at expressing my true feelings by the way I talk and look. Maybe
18. Do you often feel that other people have got it in for you? Maybe
19. Do some people drop hints about you or say things with a double meaning? Yes
20. Do you ever get nervous when someone is walking behind you? Yes
21. Are you sometimes sure that other people can tell what you are thinking? Yes
22. When you look at a person, or yourself in a mirror, have you ever seen the face change right before your eyes? Yes
23. Sometimes other people think that I am a little strange. Yes
24. I am mostly quiet when with other people. No
25. I sometimes forget what I am trying to say. Maybe
26. I rarely laugh and smile. No
27. Do you sometimes get concerned that friends or co-workers are not really loyal or trustworthy? Maybe
28. Have you ever noticed a common event or object that seemed to be a special sign for you? Yes
29. I get anxious when meeting people for the first time. Yes
30. Do you believe in clairvoyancy (psychic forces, fortune telling)? Maybe
31. I often hear a voice speaking my thoughts aloud. Maybe
32. Some people think that I am a very bizarre person. Yes
33. I find it hard to be emotionally close to other people. Maybe
34. I often ramble on too much when speaking. Yes
35. My "non-verbal" communication (smiling and nodding during a Y N conversation) is poor. Maybe
36. I feel I have to be on my guard even with friends. Maybe
37. Do you sometimes see special meanings in advertisements, shop windows, or in the way things are arranged around you? Yes
38. Do you often feel nervous when you are in a group of unfamiliar people? Yes
39. Can other people feel your feelings when they are not there? Maybe
40. Have you ever seen things invisible to other people? Yes
41. Do you feel that there is no-one you are really close to outside of your immediate family,or people you can confide in or talk to about personal problems? Maybe
42. Some people find me a bit vague and elusive during a conversation. No
43. I am poor at returning social courtesies and gestures. Yes
44. Do you often pick up hidden threats or put-downs from what people say or do? Maybe
45. When shopping do you get the feeling that other people are taking notice of you? No
46. I feel very uncomfortable in social situations involving unfamiliar people. Maybe
47. Have you had experiences with astrology, seeing the future, UFOs, ESP or a sixth sense? Yes
48. Do everyday things seem unusually large or small? Yes
49. Writing letters to friends is more trouble than it is worth. No
50. I sometimes use words in unusual ways. Yes
51. I tend to avoid eye contact when conversing with others. Yes
52. Have you found that it is best not to let other people know too much about you? Yes
53. When you see people talking to each other, do you often wonder if they are talking about you? No
54. I would feel very anxious if I had to give a speech in front of a large group of people. Yes
55. Have you ever felt that you are communicating with another person telepathically (by mind-reading)? Yes
56. Does your sense of smell sometimes become unusually strong? Yes
57. I tend to keep in the background on social occasions. No
58. Do you tend to wander off the topic when having a conversation. Maybe
59. I often feel that others have it in for me. Maybe
60. Do you sometimes feel that other people are watching you? Maybe
61. Do you ever suddenly feel distracted by distant sounds that you are not normally aware of? Yes
62. I attach little importance to having close friends. Maybe
63. Do you sometimes feel that people are talking about you? Maybe
64. Are your thoughts sometimes so strong that you can almost hear them? Yes
65. Do you often have to keep an eye out to stop people from taking advantage of you? Maybe
66. Do you feel that you are unable to get "close" to people? Maybe
67. I am an odd, unusual person. Yes
68. I do not have an expressive and lively way of speaking. No
69. I find it hard to communicate clearly what I want to say to people. Maybe
70. I have some eccentric (odd) habits. Yes
71. I feel very uneasy talking to people I do not know well. Maybe
72. People occasionally comment that my conversation is confusing. Maybe
73. I tend to keep my feelings to myself. Yes
74. People sometimes stare at me because of my odd appearance. No

Last edited by Raziel on 23 Mar 2013, 5:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

When I was dx, my AQ was still 32 and then it suddenly droped within a relatively short period of time down to 24.
But my social understanding was even back than untypical high for an autistic person, but they thought that's because of my high IQ, so that I learned the social signals. But I'm not so sure about that.
And then I was dx with autism and it seemed to fit and suddenly I changed "too far" and I didn't fit at all anymore and the shrinks didn't know if I've just "grown out" and if "yes" why I still have problems or if I've "just" depression or if I was missdiagnosed and stuff. This really confused me and still does.
I actually thought about schizotypy before, but it just didn't made sence to me, because of my childhood, but hearing that in some cases the childhood can look very similar to those with autism really hit me.

So, should I talk with my shrink about it?

My former dick-ward psychologist thought I had schizotypal pd instead of Asperger's. He was so stupid. He only met one Aspergerian and he thought I couldn't have it because I talked more than him. I have no magical thinking whatsoever. I'm the opposite when it comes to magical thinking. I'm too rational to believe in BS.

I think that if I have serious mental concerns I'd mention them to my psychiatrist.

I retook the comprehensive personality test just now.

Paranoid |||||||||||||||||| 78% 50%
Schizoid |||||||||||| 46% 40%
Schizotypal |||||||||||||| 58% 56%
Antisocial |||| 14% 46%
Borderline |||||||||||||||| 70% 45%
Histrionic || 10% 35%
Narcissistic || 10% 40%
Avoidant |||||||||||||||||||| 86% 48%
Dependent || 10% 44%
Obsessive-Compulsive |||||||||||| 46% 45%

I guess I'm as avoidant as I ever was.

Those are my results from just now:

Paranoid |||||||||||||||| 62% 50%
Schizoid |||||||||| 34% 40%
Schizotypal |||||||||||||||||||| 86% 56%
Antisocial |||||||||||| 46% 46%
Borderline |||||||||||||||| 62% 45%
Histrionic |||||| 30% 35%
Narcissistic |||||||||| 34% 40%
Avoidant |||||||||||||| 54% 48%
Dependent |||||||||||| 42% 44%
Obsessive-Compulsive |||||||||||||||| 62% 45%

Also this test is not really reliable.

Well relatives to people that have schizophrenia have a higher chance of being somewhere on the schizophrenia-spectrum.

I'm curious about this too, but I don't know enough about this to help.
My SPQ-A score was just a bit higher than yours. I googled it to see others opinions, and there seem to be a consensus among aspies, which I agree with, that there is a possibility to get high scores based solely on autistic behavior being interpreted wrongly. But for me it isn't just like that - there are many things that I do for other (more autistic) reasons than the ones I understand that they are implying, but not most.
I guess StPD can look similar with autism in childhood, if schizophrenia can... This info actually explains why they used to call Asperger's syndrome "childhood schizophrenia" which I didn't understand before.
What I find weird is that as far as I know it says there can't be AS and schizotypal or schizoid... I don't understand why. An ASD is still capable of being on that spectrum too, in forms of schizophrenia, yes? If they didn't write that caveat I would just figure it's maybe another comorbid and not be so confused.

I had a pretty steep curve from stereotypically almost low-functioning autistic as a child (among other comorbids but that is beside the point), but then it changed as I grew up more than it looks like it has changed for many people here. Though I have not asked folks on this forum how their childhood was.

One of the symptoms listed about StPD are eccentric clothes and self-expression etc. I do have that, but when aspies are described as having eccentric clothes, they are described as doing it because they do not "understand" that it isn't the norm and would find it embarrassing if they understood. I for one am extremely insulted by this implication as I don't care for norms, and it's just a personal choice, BUT from an earlier thread about clothes many seem to agree!?? (but more of the kind of "these clothes are practical, I do not understand why I wouldn't wear them?", which is more non-conformist and far from the infantilizing "they do not understand that society does not like them wearing practical clothes, poor things" and I am surprised at how little I see people rage about this? Is this how it is for other autistic adults? Do they agree with that they are incapable of understanding, if another person tells them, that invisible unsaid rules/trends/fashion/cultures exists? I can understand if I study it, but I don't find them desirable or feel any need to follow based on anything else than what I feel like doing but if other autistic people are feeling like this too - and I'm beginning to wonder - then the language is wrong and it's basically pathologizing being a born non-conformist (which the language about schizoids already do). I mean everyone seem to agree that autistic people are desperate to fit in, and I would never follow a norm indiscriminately just because I could understand it.



Also, this took a really long time to write, as I had to gather my thoughts and also think about what total dickwads many people are about mental illnesses and if I had any energy for that s**t, so now that I'm posting it I see many of my points have been made.

Does anybody have a link to the SPQ that is being used in this thread?

Well this is the one I found
http://themachine1.110mb.com/
(It's the same, no idea where everyone else get the other tests they are taking)

And here is the personality disorder test (note this is not a professional test and shouldn't be taken too serious):
http://similarminds.com/personality_disorder.html

and that's the AQ :
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/9.12/aqtest.html

The AQ and the SPQ are professional tests, shrinks also use.

Last edited by Raziel on 24 Mar 2013, 2:28 am, edited 2 times in total.

Anomiel thank you for your long answer.

Well here the problems already starts: it's my half-brother (he passed away several years ago), so he had a different mother than me. My mom told me that in his moms family there are some schizophrenics and I have no idea if this is true. I just know that we have no other schizophrenics in my family I know of.
But maybe my dad had some genes and his mom and out came someone with schizophrenia, who knows...!
But also one of my cousins is propably Asperger.
So all that doesn't makes it much easyer to tell what's the most correct diagnosis in my case I guess.



I also heard that there is a big overlap in symptoms between the negative symptoms in schizophrenia and ASD.
Autistics even show more symptoms asocioated with "negative symptoms" than schizophrenics themselfs.
Also I read that StPD mostly reminds on the symptoms of schizophrenic residuum, schizophrenic symptoms that stay after a psychosis.
So, the main difference between ASD and StPD is, that you also have some "positive symptoms" in StPD like magical thinking and so on, but the "negative symptoms" would look mostly the same, but would be more "severe" in ASD - very often even for the same reasons - like not knowing what to say in the in the right situation.
I know someone with severe StPD and his clothing is highly eccentric, also his behaviour. But I don't really think that he knows that and if he would that he would know what to wear to look "normal". But I agree, he looks a lot more eccentric like people with ASD would.
So to add to this confusion, people with StPD usually also score higher on the AQ and other autism tests.

I also guess, that sometime it's a bit a matter of interpretation what to diagnose a person, because in psychiatry we have some tests, but no 100% objective tests like a blood test or something. So we just have the behavior to diagnose on.



They just mean the diagnostic overlap. So far I know you can diagnos StPD and ASD together, when there are also symptoms present like "magical thinking" and so on which you can not really explain with ASD. But mostly this isn't done and mostly just one of the is diagnosed, because of the strong overlap in many areas.

Here something to ASD and StPD:



Personality disorders and autism spectrum disorders: what are the connections?

Thanks for linking to the other tests My AQ is 39.
I'm not posting the results of the personality one as it's kind of inaccurate like you said, but I scored higher than average on paranoid and schizoid and very high on schizotypal.

Yes that is a tricky situation, would have been much easier to know for sure if it would have been otherwise :/ But if you do find traits from the schizophrenia-spectrum applies to you, there could be a possibility to be on it even with no apparent relatives, it's not uncommon with recessive genes, like you mentioned. Are the things you experience similar in any way to him is maybe a more important question than if you had the exact same genes.



Thanks for telling me I didn't know about residual schizophrenia, wow. I agree with the big overlap in symptoms, there's even a similarity in the genes "Study highlights genetic likeness of autism, schizophrenia"
I think much could be explained with having traits and similarities maybe, like you say, I just don't know how many traits are considered normal or where the limit is.
For me (and you?) there's the additional issue with me most likely being bipolar (or atleast something that causes both mania and depression and adverse reactions to SSRIs) and paranoia and that kind of things do not only occur during mania but it makes it worse. The trajectory of my mania is getting worse (I'm 25 if it makes any difference) and I don't know what can be explained with what now.



Ahh I see. I was mostly going by the derogatory ways I've seen eccentricity described in autism vs the way it is described in schizotypy, but then the actual reality could be different and in other texts I haven't read yet and so on.
I did not know they ways I dress etc was considered eccentric before, but I have realized it now and like it. It might be because I feel like it and not disorders? I have had unnaturally colored hair for years and years, and I do not find it especially outrageous, but I know intellectually that most others find it odd, but it's not odd for me? I don't ever actually feel like it's weird.



Maybe some day the genes will be all figured out and there will be a simple bloodtest easily available in addition to observing behavior (though that couldn't check for environmental triggers) but that would probably be misused in some ways anyway... But then you could take it at least.



That changes things. I can see how they could be so similar that they would think it would be one or the other and not both. So glad you shared that study, thanks