Bieirs de Romans and lesbians in Medieval Europe

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What do you think her song was for?
Love and desire for another woman. 78%  78%  [ 7 ]
Devotion for Virgin Mary. 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
It was written for a man. 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Friendship. 11%  11%  [ 1 ]
A man wrote it, not her. 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Other. (please tell) 11%  11%  [ 1 ]
Total votes : 9

fossil_n
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03 Feb 2013, 10:07 am

Katherina Hetzeldorfer in particular, but also the other historical examples.



EtherealBallet
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03 Feb 2013, 10:53 am

fossil_n wrote:
Katherina Hetzeldorfer in particular, but also the other historical examples.
there was this paper regarding her that I saw in many articles. I cannot access it however. If anyone is very interested in it the name of it is Female Sodomy: The Trial of Katherina Hetzeldorfer (1477).



fossil_n
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03 Feb 2013, 8:18 pm

I was able to download it using my university ID. If you would like to read the full version, I can put it up temporarily in a public Dropbox and send you a link via pm.



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03 Feb 2013, 10:59 pm

fossil_n wrote:
I was able to download it using my university ID. If you would like to read the full version, I can put it up temporarily in a public Dropbox and send you a link via pm.
Only do so if you truely wish to, though I must say it would be an interesting read. What do you think of it?



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05 Feb 2013, 9:43 pm

I haven't had a chance to read it yet.



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08 Feb 2013, 5:33 pm

EtherealBallet wrote:
I found some very interesting stuff on riabrodell.com's series Butch Heroes.
"Katherina Hetzeldorfer was tried, and then drowned in the Rhine, for a crime that didn’t have a name in 1477. She/He had moved to the city of Speier from Nuremberg with a woman who, during the trial, Hetzeldorfer said was a sister. They had lived in Speier for two years before Hetzeldorfer was arrested. They had apparently confided in members of the community describing the nature of their relationship like that of a husband and wife. After intense cross examination Hetzeldorfer revealed that the woman was not a sibling but that they had a long standing sexual relationship. (Hetzeldorfer’s wife may have escaped because she was not heard from in the trial transcripts )Hetzeldorfer was described by female witnesses who claimed to have been seduced by him/her as “being like a man in both physique and behavior, a sexually aggressive character and a potent lover.” "[/i] It appears the gender identity was unknown, at least to the author. [i]The site has more but the rest is not in the time/area I am looking at. It might be good to look at.
In the document fossil_n sent me I can see how the gender identity would be hard to tell. They called Katherina she but also said Katherina dressed and lived as a man. Katherina was called the husband of the "sister".



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25 Feb 2013, 9:51 pm

I found this on a Isle of Sappho.com, German 12th century love letters.
To C.--, who is sweeter than honey and the honeycomb,
B.-- sends all the love that one can send to love.
O my unique and special one,
Why are you delaying so long in that far-off land?
Why do you want me to die, your one and only
Who loves you, as you know, with all her body and soul,
and who, like a hungry little bird,
Sighs for you at every hour and every moment?
For ever since I was cut off from your sweetest presence,
I have not wanted to hear or see anyone else but you;
Just as a turtledove, after she lost her husband,
Remains forever sitting on its barren twig,
So I lament without end
Until I once more can enjoy your faithfulness.
I look around and do not find my lover,
Nor anyone to console me with a word.
While I very happily
Review in my mind the sweetness
Of your conversations and your appearance,
I am oppressed with terrible pain,
For I find nothing like them now.
What should I compare to your love?
It is sweeter than honey or the honeycomb.
And compared to it, the luster of gold and silver are worthless.
What else can I say? In you are all sweetness and value.
Thus my spirit always languishes in your absence.
You have none of the poison of treachery;
You are sweeter than milk and honey.
You are singled out from the thousands;
I love you more than all the others;
You alone are my love and my desire;
You are the sweet refreshment of my soul.
There is no pleasure for me
Without you.
Everything that was pleasant with you
Is wearisome now and dreary without you.
And so, I wish to say that in all truth
That if I could pay my life for you, I would not hesitate
Because you are the only woman I have chosen with my heart.
Therefore, I always pray to God
That bitter death does not come to me
Before I enjoy the sight of you, so long desired and so dear.
Farewell. --
Have all my faith and love;
Accept what I have written and sent you
And my ever faithful spirit.

This is another

To G, her one and only rose,
A.-- sends the bond of precious love.
What strength have I that I may bear it,
That I may endure your absence?
Is my strength the strength of stones
That can wait for your return?
I never cease from aching, night and day,
Like someone missing a hand and foot.
Without you anything happy or delightful
Seems like mud trod underfoot.
Instead of rejoicing I weep;
My spirit never seems joyful.
When I remember the kisses you gave me,
The way you refreshed my little breasts with sweet words,
I would like to die
Since I cannot see you.
What should I, most wretched, do?
Where should I, most poor, turn?
O, if my body had been committed to earth
Until your longed-for return,
Or if I could go on a journey like Habakkuk,
So that just once I could come to where
I saw the face of my lover,
Then I would not care if I died that very hour.
For there is no one who has been born in the world
Who is so lovable and dear,
No one who without feigning
Loves me with so deep a love.
Therefore, I ache without end
Until I am allowed to see you.
According to one wise man, the worst misery
Is to be far from someone one cannot live without.
As long as the world endures,
You will never be blotted out from my heart's care.
Why do I linger with so many words?
Come back, my sweet love!
Don't put off your journey any longer.
Know that I can no longer endure your absence.
Farewell--
Remember me.



EtherealBallet
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30 Jun 2013, 11:51 pm

Forgive me for reviving a dead topic. I keep bumping into this thread on google search. When I first wrote on this I did not have a clear grasp on medieval sexuality. It seems that it was less identification (there were some text that suggest some text that suggest some women (some personality types, medical conditions, star born under were in texts) were more likely to be attracted to other women. There was also a very homophobic medieval theory that suggested a gay (male) orientation but alas it suggested that a young man experimented then got addicted making it very different and negative view. ) and with medieval people who could be classified as transgender it is not certain if they were. An example is John Rykener or Eleanor. Rykener was a prostitute as both John and Eleanor and as Eleanor a spinster. Rykner as Eleanor had males as a woman and as John had females as a man. The women believed Rykner to be a man and the men believed Eleanor to be a woman. Does this say anything about Rykner's gender or did Rykner do this to get wealthy customers ?(Rykner often had priests and said they gave lot's of money) Also I will mention the debate on gender and sexuality of Joan of Arc. Often people say she was transgender or gender queer or lesbian. Often this is countered by people saying she was a cisgendered heterosexual woman. I do not debate this. But I wonder if some people refused to believe that she was anything other than cisgendered and heterosexual and if this could be heterocentric or could be. I also wonder how Joan would feel about this. Heterosexuality and homosexuality are not hinted at, so I don't see why people say she is either.The reason I do not debate this is fear of incorrectness for no one will ever know. But if I were to debate I would say she was cisgendered and asexual because she always called herself The Maid and called herself a woman. I say asexual because she did not showed any signs of attraction to anyone in anywhere I can find. She did develop beautiful and deep friendships with her companions ("My sweet duke" was a name one of her friends) but I do not think these were sexual because she often spoke in this emotional and intimate way to her allies("My dearest and good friends" she addressed towns), and her squire mentioned the lack of sexuality when he helped her change. But of course she kept her maidenhood very dear so it would not matter anyways and will always be unknown.But I debated and I should not have.
There is an interesting article about medieval women called Lesbian-like and social history of lesbianisms



fossil_n
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06 Nov 2013, 11:32 pm

Have you see this: Nicola Griffith's Blog

In the blog entry she wrote a bit about a reference in a medieval Irish text about a women in the 700s having a relationship with another woman.

Also, Nicola Griffiths just came out with a novel called Hild, a historical fiction about a british girl/woman in the 7th century (based on the real-life Saint Hilda of Whitby). Griffiths makes her bisexual in the novel. I haven't read it yet, but I'm very much looking forward to it.