Is there a single non-binary/GQ/agender/etc. person

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Non-binary reinforces gender roles, because it focuses too much on them. To me agender means you cannot relate to gender roles or you do not care about your gender. However many people who call themselves agender end up reinforcing gender roles and stereotypes by behaving or dressing sometimes overly feminine or overly masculine and making a show of it.

I figure this was a baiting thread in the first place so I might as well finally give a quick bite.
I'm feeling a little indignant from some of the replies in this thread so I'll just say...

if you have a problem with the idea that my gender may be tied into gender stereotypes... you can shove it up your bottom :p I don't need to have anyone's preferred motivation for identifying however I want to identify. I also say anyone else who identifies however they do, it's not up to others to make that criteria for you.

I am not sure why people get so bent out of shape over gender identity. We're just trying to explain to other people who we are and what we think so that they can understand us better... it's not like we're asking anyone else to do anything other than maybe adopt some alternative pronouns and names...

Its silly to me to be honest to suggest that your personality is your gender. I hate that people try to redefine gender to mean something different than sex. If you are a biological male then you are a man, if you believe you would be happier living life as a woman the vast majority of people would be happy to treat you as such.

I've already replied with something similar. Sometimes my body doesn't feel right. Sometimes I feel like my body is or should be male. If I felt this way all the time I guess I'd be a trans man and want to permanently change my body. Since the way I feel keeps changing I just live with it and nonbinary seems a good way to describe it. I'm not sure how this is enforcing any stereotypes?

While I understand why you might be under the illusion that people would be happy to do that in theory (possibly because you haven't lived it?)... they're not. They get mad, upset, mean and violent. People turn into monsters over the concept and to suggest that people would be OK with it is ignoring the danger of live for many people.

The thing is... there is science and history that back us up that gender is more than just personality. (hereis an example of just one article that I could find in 2 seconds on google).

So now, keep in mind how this relates... you feel "hate" for something you don't understand... and this is your basis for a theory that people are going to be OK with people living in the way that you don't understand?

Why must people who don't have the experience feel so frustrated about those of who do have the experience? What the heck is it about who we are that pisses you all off so much? Sheesh!



Yeah that's a good point... NB trans folx with dysphoria... I don't talk about my own experiences with body dysphoria because it's a source of depression and I feel a bit hopeless with some of it... but there is an area that's not based on stereotypes at all. For some of us, looking at parts of our own bodies can be super emotional and even painful. That's not based on any stereotypes. Not all NB folx experience dysphoria or consider themselves specifically transgender but there are many of us who do.

There is no hate here.

There is a great deal of concern about all of the hatred against women by trans extremists, about the erasure of women as a class, the disapperance of rape shelters and prisons and changing rooms that are for women only, and the nonsensical ideology that actually reinforces gender norms and undoes years of feminist work, and, the encouraging of young children to embark upon a life of harmful drugs, surgery, and sterility.

I am aware of what the TERFs believe. It's fundamentalist thinking, but I can understand where they come from. It's unfortunate that you all are so willing to deny that our existence is real and that we are who we say we are, but at least I can see how that leads to your arguments above. It's still dangerous, wrong, and fuels people who do hate us, even if you yourself are only at a concern level.

as for hate... here is the word:



There is hate there... When someone uses a word like this as emphasis it means that they have hate in their heart for us. While people throw this word around easily for how frustrated they are, it is also an indicator that there is more emotion than just frustration. One could argue that it's a figure of speech, and I tend to be bad with figures of speech and subtext... but... I see the word "hate"... and it reminds me how panic stricken and afraid of the world that I can be at times because of the fact that people feel this way about who I am.

Bigotry is wrong, whether it's for trans people, people of color, women and men, people whom have different education levels, people from different economic or cultural backgrounds, etc. When people learn what diversity actually is and how embracing true diversity makes our lives better and richer they'll actually have less stress and be happier. I don't understand why that's so hard to get for people.

I said that I hate that people try to to redefine the word gender not that I hate Trans people so please don't quote me out of context.

There is no scientific evidence what so ever that a man can become a woman. Your Chromosomes determine your gender.

Yes, they might identify as such because they are uncomfortable with their bodies (dysphoria) or with being referred to as a binary gender, etc.

hate is hate, whether it's for a concept or a person. I never claimed that you said you hated trans people, in fact I think I was clear as to what you were using the word for when I mentioned that it could be a figure of speech. It's still your word and you still used it. It's a strong word and expresses your aggressive emotions about the situation.

Also, the idea that someone is becoming something else is outdated, and I am not sure where it came from anyway. Transition is about reducing conflict in certain aspects of a person's body / social expression / etc in order to align with the way they feel in order to reduce the agony of dysphoria. We're not trying to turn into someone we're not, we're trying to match our life with who we are.

You are being pathetic if I say I hate vegetables, would you really say hate is hate to that.

If a biological males feels they will be happier living as a woman that is absolutely their right. That doesn't mean they are actually a woman and no serious biologist would claim it does.

I am actually pointing out behaviors. Specifically you've exhibited once again a use of language for emphasis that suggests aggression.

I am not sure why I am even debating this stuff... I'm not going to change any of your mind, and you're certainly not going to change mine. I am not even good at arguments like this I guess I just felt like jumping into the debate for a moment but I think that feeling has passed a bit.

ya'll have fun with your opinions.

Most nb people I know aren't basing their identity on stereotypes, but rather on the rejection of stereotypes and the questioning of categories. For instance, I know one nb trans guy who often presents female, and doesn't feel much dysphoria around it because he considers it to be drag. He still plans on transitioning, but his concept of his body is fluid. Or for another example, I've talked to nb trans women who present femme, but don't want surgery and still relate to some aspects of gay male culture. You also have people who consider themselves to be not gendered at all and transition to have a body more like an androgyne or a classical eunuch. You have intersex nb people, and people who define themselves by a third set of traits besides masculinity or femininity altogether.

Is there a single cis/hetero/etc. person who doesn't feel overwhelmingly entitled to nitpick and overanalyze other people's sexualities and gender identities?

I know several people who are non-binary or gender-fluid and don't base their identity off stereotypes, misogynistic beliefs, gender roles or any offensive belief. As a trans woman myself, my gender identity also has nothing to do with stereotypes or gender roles. It is, rather, based on an intrinsic sense of self and how I see myself fitting into the world around me.

I'm not quite sure what it is that you're talking about. Being feminine isn't about any of those things. Granted, many of these things are unfortunately very real parts of a woman's experience in today's world; but it is because of the patriarchal and misogynistic forces in play. No one wants to face abuse, prejudice and harassment. None of those things define femininity; None of them define what it is to be a woman. Transgender individuals are forced to face all of those same injustices.

Also, everyone has a gender identity, for most people its such an innate part of themselves that its not something they pay much attention to or differentiate from their other identities.