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Anti-trans bigots: "Puberty blockers are child abuse"

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vermontsavant
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09 Jan 2020, 6:34 am

Fnord wrote:
vermontsavant wrote:
I am surprised someone as liberal as you would support this article, it seems a bit out of character for you,but it certainly doesn't surprise me if your just playing devils advocate.
Instead of just saying "I read it somewhere" or posting some half-arsed opinion, I prefer to post links to articles that (1) render factual information to other members, and/or that (2) back up something I have stated as fact.

It's easy to do, but not as easy as criticizing someone for doing it.
I always post the name of the article and the source of the article.I was just surprised you would support such a conservative viewpoint.


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Bradleigh
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09 Jan 2020, 7:18 am

magz wrote:
I guess with a body of my husband I would get enough testosterone to be a man - to think and feel like one. Just like with my body I have enough oxitocin to be a woman.
Yes, I sometimes wondered what kind of man I would be if I were a man. I wouldn't change much. Probably be taller. Would like to get married. I even know what kind of women I would be attracted to.


And yet there are people who have a different experience where it is not the case, where they don't feel comfortable from the changes that would come naturally.

Not going to say your experience is wrong, because what you wrote is not actually too different from what I have felt. Actually have felt quite a lot about what kind of woman I would be like, and all this talk of gender actually put it for me personally thinking that gender dysphoria would not make sense, that I think that I might actually just adapt if my sex changed. And going down that line of thinking has led to where I currently identify as non-binary, because I don't think everyone feels the same way. I have seen enough of people needing to act as a certain gender, birth or trans, so I need to accept that their experiences are different from myself, while also finding where I am comfortable.

I am not saying that you are, but some acceptance that the experiences of others can differ.


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magz
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09 Jan 2020, 8:27 am

Okay, so a concept that you would still be yourself if you were the other gender makes you nonbinary?

I indeed have the problem with the trans and cis narration. I just don't fit it. I'm female, that's my sex, my shape, my organs, my hormone balance. It's me. So I'm not trans. I use the pronouns of my bio sex and I use the ladies' rooms. But I also do not feel cis: my feminity does not define much of me. It defines me as a mother - it's something probably impossible to describe to someone who hasn't experienced it. Deep, bodily experience. But outside of it, I won't make my choices based on what is "for girls" or "for boys". I can have several "masculine" traits and they don't make me any less of a mother.
I feel female, gender-shrug. Maybe that's the way my culture handles the nonbinary?


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Fnord
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09 Jan 2020, 8:56 am

MushroomPrincess wrote:
Fnord wrote:
It's easier to attribute the multiplicity of names for the various genders to the variety of cultural interpretations and regional slang for the exact same things.
You mean, it's easier for you (a white westerner) to attribute the multiplicity of different genders to a (white western) social construct you're familiar with. Your privilege is showing, honey.
Ahh, yes ... sooner or later, an SJW who cannot refute the facts will resort to culturalist and racist attacks against the person(s) who present the facts.

But they are not attacks if an SJW uses them, right?

:lol:



Fnord
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09 Jan 2020, 8:58 am

Bradleigh wrote:
Fnord wrote:
magz wrote:
Biological sex matters for human reproduction.  Does expressing the opinion above make me a transphobic bigot?
Only if you declare it to be true.
For crying out loud. You are characterizing everyone advocating for recognition for transgenderism as just getting angry if people state facts...
Wrong.

I characterize everyone who attacks anyone else for presenting factual information as repressive propagandists, nothing more.



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09 Jan 2020, 9:00 am

vermontsavant wrote:
... I was just surprised you would support such a conservative viewpoint.
"Presentation" is not "support". Just because you present (wear) clothing that was made in Chinese sweat shops, that does not mean you support slavery, right?



vermontsavant
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09 Jan 2020, 9:17 am

Fnord wrote:
vermontsavant wrote:
... I was just surprised you would support such a conservative viewpoint.
"Presentation" is not "support". Just because you present (wear) clothing that was made in Chinese sweat shops, that does not mean you support slavery, right?
Thats a good clarification,I know to little about trans culture to have an opinion on it and I am not against that article but was just surprised to see you support such a conservative viewpoint.But you clarified yourself very well,thank you.


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Fnord
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09 Jan 2020, 9:35 am

vermontsavant wrote:
Fnord wrote:
vermontsavant wrote:
... I was just surprised you would support such a conservative viewpoint.
"Presentation" is not "support". Just because you present (wear) clothing that was made in Chinese sweat shops, that does not mean you support slavery, right?
Thats a good clarification,I know to little about trans culture to have an opinion on it and I am not against that article but was just surprised to see you support such a conservative viewpoint.But you clarified yourself very well,thank you.
Then I had better not post an article I found about Hitler wanting to become a woman; that would really set things off.



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09 Jan 2020, 9:36 am

Fnord wrote:
Wrong.

I characterize everyone who attacks anyone else for presenting factual information as repressive propagandists, nothing more.


That is rich, when your "factual information" were literally propaganda released by a right wing think tank that pretends that it is a well accepted body. With a history of pushing things like conversion therapy.

I am not attacking you for "presenting factual information", I attacked your sources as the sort of group that manipulates its work to do things like protest against same sex couples being able to adopt. It would be like grabbing NRA run research to say that guns make people safer, or a study by the Coke corporation that says a Coke is part of a balanced diet. It is like following Autism Speaks for research on autism, or even anti-vaxers, sure you might find some experts of sorts in there, but they are all there to support their narrative only.

I refute your claim that saying biological sex is relevant to human reproduction, that is not the case. You don't seem to understand how that is different from saying that gender is the same thing as sex and neither can change. I have said this several times but you seem to still think those advocating for trans people are calling everyone who believes simple things about sex, like the ability to reproduce, are bigots. I am not unreasonable, I am up for any other information you want to put forward, just do better than the American College of Pediatricians.

Look, here is a page on them by the Southern Poverty Law Center.
https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/group/american-college-pediatricians


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09 Jan 2020, 1:09 pm

Fnord wrote:
vermontsavant wrote:
... I was just surprised you would support such a conservative viewpoint.
"Presentation" is not "support". Just because you present (wear) clothing that was made in Chinese sweat shops, that does not mean you support slavery, right?


But you didn't simply "present" the information. You also argued it's validity, as well as the credibility of the source. When people disagreed with it, you defended it, and attacked them. That's more than just a messenger. That's an advocate. You're not just wearing the shirt. You're selling it, too.



Fnord
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09 Jan 2020, 2:27 pm

So? Is this supposed to be one of those "Echo Chambers" where everyone agrees with everyone else and no dissenting opinions are tolerated or even permitted?

Image


Is this the kind of 'discussion' you want?



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09 Jan 2020, 3:23 pm

Fnord wrote:
So? Is this supposed to be one of those "Echo Chambers" where everyone agrees with everyone else and no dissenting opinions are tolerated or even permitted?

Well no, you're allowed to agree with conservative think tanks and fake science if you want to. Just, don't take it personally when people call it what it is.

Quote:
Haha guys did we really evolve, or did God create us? Teach the controversy :^) don't let this discussion become an echo chamber that suppresses unpopular opinions, Ken Ham has a Ph.D which means he's a real scientist!


Yes, you can take that position, but if you bring bigoted fake science into a scientific discussion it's going to get shot down pretty quickly because it adds nothing of value to the conversation and most people instinctively realize that. It's not an echo chamber, it's just people recognizing an obvious con when they see one.



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09 Jan 2020, 7:23 pm

Fnord wrote:
So? Is this supposed to be one of those "Echo Chambers" where everyone agrees with everyone else and no dissenting opinions are tolerated or even permitted?


That is a bit of a non sequitur.

Could you imagine using this defense in any other discussion? Accusing everyone in a discussion about whether murder should be legal of building an echo chamber. Accusing people in a discussion about whether pelting a child with a belt is child abuse, of building an echo chamber.

You are welcome to argue a dissenting point, as long as you don't bring in the most fake evidence from the worst possible point. The Autism Speaks of LGBT issues.


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MushroomPrincess
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09 Jan 2020, 8:33 pm

Bradleigh wrote:
the Autism Speaks of LGBT issues

Mic drop. This is a 100% perfect analogy.



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09 Jan 2020, 8:43 pm

magz wrote:
SharonB wrote:
magz wrote:
Biological sex matters for human reproduction.

Does expressing the opinion above make me a transphobic bigot?

If it's literally biology parts = child, then no
If it implies denial of resources ("reasonable" is subjective) to = child, then yes

What resources?

@magz, in my mind I was thinking of the simplest: e.g. adoption resources, parental rights, community support for a pregnant transman ---- to more complex: medical assistance for biological functions ---- there's a subjective "line" there: e.g. the biological woman whose reproductive system is mildly impaired, or severely impaired; and everything in between to the biological man who wishes to carry a child.



magz
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10 Jan 2020, 5:07 am

SharonB wrote:
@magz, in my mind I was thinking of the simplest: e.g. adoption resources, parental rights,
To raise a child you don't need any genitalia.
SharonB wrote:
community support for a pregnant transman
What kind of support? It may be anything from very simple (normal pregnancy and childbirth assistance) to quite complex (being considerate about one's gender identity in a situation clearly not matching it)
SharonB wrote:
---- to more complex: medical assistance for biological functions ---- there's a subjective "line" there: e.g. the biological woman whose reproductive system is mildly impaired, or severely impaired; and everything in between to the biological man who wishes to carry a child.
That sounds a lot an issue of intersex handling.
With the current technology, one needs to be born with more or less functional testicles to produce sperm, more or less functional ovaries to produce ova and more or less functional uterus to carry the child - current medicine can't implant any of those to a person not born with one, it can solve numerous problems with them, but not create them.


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