J.K. Rowling is a disgusting TERF

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22 Dec 2019, 10:18 am

The person got fired for her anti-Trans statements. That’s a pretty major thing in my book. Maybe, in the future, this person will be more careful in what she says.

I doubt that Rowling is some radical nut. She was probably advocating for a friend.

smudge
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22 Dec 2019, 10:28 am

I give up, this is driving me crazy. It is all based on peoples' interpretations and IMO that's gobbledegook.

Thanks for trying to explain it Bradleigh, but I still don't understand it. No evidence and lots of opinions = GAAAAAAAAHHHHH MY BRAIN.

How do people think like this??

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magz
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22 Dec 2019, 10:31 am

Bradleigh wrote:

smudge wrote:

No evidence word for word of what was said.

Who said about what?

Because the first page of this topic shows the Tweet of Rowling saying that "sex is real". It is a transphobic whistle to nullify the gender of trans people. That does not mean that sex is not a real thing, but it is not generally relevant in whether one should be treated as a particular gender.

So, sex is real but saying that sex is real is offensive? :scratch:

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magz
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22 Dec 2019, 10:33 am

smudge wrote:

How about she isn't anything until there is actually proof, rather than anecdotal evidence that she is transphobic?

Definitely.

I'm just looking for some logic of TERF label and, in case of JKR, I know too little about TE; based on her books, she's definitely not RF.

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Bradleigh
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22 Dec 2019, 10:55 am

magz wrote:

So, sex is real but saying that sex is real is offensive? :scratch:

It is when used to exclude trans women from using women's spaces. It is used in a context of saying that trans women should not be allowed to use a women's bathroom, because they may have at one time or still do have a penis. When really it is gender that should be the deciding factor, otherwise they will be forcing trans women that may entirely pass to go into the men's room, and trans men who entirely look like any random men, including bears and the like, would have to go into the women's room.

It is like saying PMS exists to explain away why a women might be upset. Sure there could be circumstance where a little relevant, but is grossly offensive to make that generalization and ignore the key information.

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magz
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22 Dec 2019, 11:23 am

Bradleigh wrote:

magz wrote:

So, sex is real but saying that sex is real is offensive? :scratch:

So, weather "sex is real" is offensive, depends on full context of using the term.
Sadly, I haven't seen any article trying to provide enough context to tell which "sex is real" Ms JK was thinking Ms Maya meant - I don't know how close to each other they are and how much they know about each other.

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22 Dec 2019, 11:43 am

"Dog whistle" is just another term being utilized to shut down discussion and demonize anyone who dares question trans ideology, which is operating under the flag of progressivism and tolerance. It seems rather authoritarian to me, and is anything BUT progressive and tolerant. This is not we create a more inclusive society.

Perhaps if more people on the left would condemn calls for violence against alleged TERFs with as much vigour as they condemn tweets like Rowling's, we'd be in a much better place.

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22 Dec 2019, 12:03 pm

VegetableMan wrote:

What about the “ideology” of gay rights? Should we support and respect views that want to abolish gay marriage?

Or what about the “ideology” behind women’s rights and civil rights?

If a trans female says she is a woman, who am I to question it? I’m not in her mind so how would I be capable of judging her experience?

It seems like it would be really difficult to deal with the sorts of issues they face for it to merely be an empty ideology with no solid basis.

I’d be more than happy and willing to accept a trans female into whatever girlish hijinks we want to get involved in that day - talks about art and fashion, romantic movies, or perfecting our superhero powers with martial arts skills. The usual stuff.

Last edited by TwilightPrincess on 22 Dec 2019, 12:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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22 Dec 2019, 12:13 pm

I am not going to opine on the topic of gender identity. The topic is beyond the capacity of myself to “get”, to understand beyond the most superficial basic elements.

That said I do very well understand why people that identify in a gender non traditional way feel offended because I know how I feel when people say I am delusional for identifying as autistic, that people identifying as autistic are using a fad for attention seeking, and when they demand I use “person with autism” etc.

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22 Dec 2019, 12:21 pm

Twilightprincess wrote:

VegetableMan wrote:

What about the “ideology” of gay rights? Should we support and respect views that want to abolish gay marriage?

Or what about the “ideology” behind women’s rights and civil rights?

The word “ideology” is thrown around incorrectly a lot lately whenever someone doesn’t like something.

If a trans female says she is a woman, who am I to question it? I’m not in her mind so how would I be capable of judging her experience?

It seems like it would be really difficult to deal with the sorts of issues they face for it to merely be an empty ideology with no solid basis.

I’d be more than happy and willing to accept a trans female into whatever girlish hijinks we want to get involved in that day - talks about art and fashion, romantic movies, or perfecting our superhero powers with martial arts skills. The usual stuff.

As far as I know, the gay rights movement has never sought to erode the rights of others. The same can be said for the women's rights movement. I'm not saying that trans ideology is "baseless." But there is no getting around simple biological facts. The sex you were born will always be your biological sex until the day you die. How you wish to express yourself is another matter altogether. I'm fully supportive of breaking down gender stereotypes and allowing people identify in any way they see fit. What I'm against is this coercive social engineering and demoning anyone who doesn't fall in line with the trans movement.

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22 Dec 2019, 12:31 pm

VegetableMan wrote:

Twilightprincess wrote:

VegetableMan wrote:

What about the “ideology” of gay rights? Should we support and respect views that want to abolish gay marriage?

Or what about the “ideology” behind women’s rights and civil rights?

The word “ideology” is thrown around incorrectly a lot lately whenever someone doesn’t like something.

If a trans female says she is a woman, who am I to question it? I’m not in her mind so how would I be capable of judging her experience?

It seems like it would be really difficult to deal with the sorts of issues they face for it to merely be an empty ideology with no solid basis.

I’d be more than happy and willing to accept a trans female into whatever girlish hijinks we want to get involved in that day - talks about art and fashion, romantic movies, or perfecting our superhero powers with martial arts skills. The usual stuff.

I fail to see how trans people are infringing on my rights. I’ve not been inhibited in any way.

I really don’t even think about it all that much unless I meet a trans person or talk to individuals on here. To go to the effort of speaking out against the trans community or supporting individuals who do suggests that prejudice is at work here. It’s not cool.

I also wouldn’t be cool with other forms of prejudice - those which are no longer viewed as acceptable by mainstream society.

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22 Dec 2019, 12:47 pm

Twilightprincess wrote:

VegetableMan wrote:

Twilightprincess wrote:

VegetableMan wrote:

What about the “ideology” of gay rights? Should we support and respect views that want to abolish gay marriage?

Or what about the “ideology” behind women’s rights and civil rights?

The word “ideology” is thrown around incorrectly a lot lately whenever someone doesn’t like something.

If a trans female says she is a woman, who am I to question it? I’m not in her mind so how would I be capable of judging her experience?

It seems like it would be really difficult to deal with the sorts of issues they face for it to merely be an empty ideology with no solid basis.

I’d be more than happy and willing to accept a trans female into whatever girlish hijinks we want to get involved in that day - talks about art and fashion, romantic movies, or perfecting our superhero powers with martial arts skills. The usual stuff.

You may feel that your rights are not being infringed upon, but other women feel differently. Are their concerns invalid? Should they just accept biological males in their locker rooms, prisons, and sports because if they don't, there being discriminatory? Shall we just tag them with a derogatory label and toss them aside without any further discussion?

I know a couple of women who are on the same page as Rowling and Forstater. Neither of them have a prejudiced bone in their bodies.

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magz
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22 Dec 2019, 12:48 pm

Twilightprincess wrote:

I fail to see how trans people are infringing on my rights.

Take the tweet from the OP literally and assume everything except losing job happened only on Twitter.

I don't know the full story, it seems very Rashomon to me.

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Last edited by magz on 22 Dec 2019, 12:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.

The_Walrus
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22 Dec 2019, 12:49 pm

magz wrote:

The_Walrus wrote:

Unfortunately it is worse than that. In one of the Robert Galbraith novels, the main character notices that a woman is trans and jokes about her being raped in prison.

https://www.them.us/story/is-jk-rowling-transphobic

Rowling is a TERF unfortunately and this just reinforces that.

Joking about rape in prison is awful in general so until I learn the full context (e.g. presenting the character as awful?) I can't form any opinion on this.
I need to read the book myself because from what I've read of JK Rowling and Robert Galbraith, there is nothing radically feministic about them.
So, maybe TEMF (Trans Excluding Moderate Feminist) would fit better.

Radical feminism isn’t “feminism but more extreme”. At least in this context, it is a specific ideology which denies the biological reality of gender. That is to say, it believes gender is entirely socially constructed, and people are properly categorised by their sex. They would like to entirely abolish the concept of gender as they feel it is the root of women’s oppression. If someone who identifies as a feminist thinks that trans women aren’t women then they’re a TERF.

The opposite to radical feminism is usually said to be liberal feminism, which acknowledges that people have innate gender identity, but argues that the root of women’s oppression is actually the way women are treated by society and the denial of women’s rights.

In both cases I’m necessarily simplifying somewhat, and it’s not actually a binary situation. But in most of ways, “radical” feminism isn’t necessarily more extreme, it’s just about how you approach issues like gender (abolish it, rather than making all genders equal) or sex work (radfems tend time view it as inherently bad whereas libfems view it as a matter of choice).

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22 Dec 2019, 12:56 pm

VegetableMan wrote:

Twilightprincess wrote:

VegetableMan wrote:

Twilightprincess wrote:

VegetableMan wrote:

What about the “ideology” of gay rights? Should we support and respect views that want to abolish gay marriage?

Or what about the “ideology” behind women’s rights and civil rights?

The word “ideology” is thrown around incorrectly a lot lately whenever someone doesn’t like something.

If a trans female says she is a woman, who am I to question it? I’m not in her mind so how would I be capable of judging her experience?

It seems like it would be really difficult to deal with the sorts of issues they face for it to merely be an empty ideology with no solid basis.

I’d be more than happy and willing to accept a trans female into whatever girlish hijinks we want to get involved in that day - talks about art and fashion, romantic movies, or perfecting our superhero powers with martial arts skills. The usual stuff.

Lots of religious people say they don’t hate gays, they just don’t want them to change the definition of marriage, or say they’re interfering with their right to choose who can get married. Similarly the pro-slavery movement talked of their right to keep slaves being infringed upon.

At the moment, nobody checks your birth certificate when you go to the toilet. Trans people, like everyone else, can use the toilet they choose. Same with changing rooms. So bringing up “perverts pretending to be trans to get access to little girls in toilets” is frankly bigotry, even if the person has good intentions.

The only thing that self-ID changes is how easy it is for trans people to get ID with their real gender on it. It has zero impact on cis people.

magz
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22 Dec 2019, 1:00 pm

The_Walrus wrote:

(...) specific ideology which denies the biological reality of gender.

What is "biological reality of gender"? I'm from a different culture and I see this term for the first time in my life.

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