Bieirs de Romans and lesbians in Medieval Europe

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What do you think her song was for?
Love and desire for another woman. 78%  78%  [ 7 ]
Devotion for Virgin Mary. 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
It was written for a man. 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Friendship. 11%  11%  [ 1 ]
A man wrote it, not her. 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Other. (please tell) 11%  11%  [ 1 ]
Total votes : 9

EtherealBallet
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11 Jan 2013, 12:05 am

Little is known about Bieris de Romans from my brief research (making her a poor special interest so I won't get too intense about her (Unlike Joan of Arc who you can find vast information on (Still more internet depths to wade through and more books to read.)) Much like Pierrone who only got a brief mention in books and in-depth websites on Joan.
Her only known song from what I know is "Na Maria, pretz e fina valors" The words:

"Na Maria, you are a prize, you are precious
and joy and good sense and precious beauty
and gracious welcome and honor
and gentle words and charming company
and sweet face and cheerful presence
and sweet gaze and lovely looks
all these things inhabit you, incomparable
they draw my trusting heart to you.

I beg you, please, let Fin' Amors
delight and sweet humility
give me the help I need with you,
give me, lovely Lady, please
what I hope most to enjoy:
you are my heart and my desire
all my pleasure lies in you
I moon around and sigh for you.

Your beauty and your preciousness
raise you far, no one's like you
I beg you, please, for your own honor
don't go and love some cheating man.

Lovely Lady, precious, joyful,
gentle voice, I send my song
delight and happiness lie in you
and all good things that make a lady."


Some say that it is written as a song of devotion to Virgin Mary (why is she asking Mary not to love some cheating man?) Some say it was written from a man's point of view.Some say to is a song to a woman that she was in love with. What do you think?
Also what are some other lesbians from medieval Europe? Or any other information about LGBTAs in medieval Europe. I wonder how transexuals would have been viewed and treated. I would say not very well, but compared to a woman in men's clothing and role like Joan, how would a trans man have been treated? Would he have gotten all Joan was accused of regarding her clothing but more if he stated he saw himself as a man? How do you think the society might have thought of asexuals? I have not heard anything about medieval bisexuals, so what about them?



EtherealBallet
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11 Jan 2013, 12:26 am

I think it was for another lady because of how she spoke of courtly love (Fin' Amors) the woman's physical beauty and said not to love a cheating man. I don't know what was typical of medieval poems of devotion though (would a poem I would send to a girlfriend today be like or unlike a one I would write for a saint in medieval Europe (this is an example of a poem like one I would send to a girlfriend. Look up Christine Pizan's (Any feminist here should study or read her; she was an early feminist author!) poem about Joan of Arc. That would be more like a poem I would dedicate for a saint (or a hero because that's what Joan was back then as views were mixed) It might have been different back then (both poems were medieval. Na Maria was 13th century, Joan poem of course much later (15th century))). The book says this song is very much like a love song though. Also what do you think of this poem?



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11 Jan 2013, 2:11 am

In my opinion, it sounds far too much like a love song as opposed to a devotional song. What tipped me off was how she asked her not to love a cheating man. If it really was for the Virgin Mary, then she probably would have asked her to forgive or love other people. Then again, it was written a very long time ago so we may never know what the author's true intentions were.



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11 Jan 2013, 5:01 am

The phrases "charming company" and "I moon around and sigh for you" also sound more like the words you address to an equal who is physically present, rather than to a saint who is above you in dignity and who would (I suspect) be regarded more as a spiritual presence (i.e. up in heaven, not down on earth).

So I think it plausible that it is a poem from a female to a (living) beloved female.



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11 Jan 2013, 12:18 pm

I think your interpretation is right. I was going to recommend some LGBT writers and poets (both ancient and antic and contemporary) but then I saw that you wanted specifically medieval european ones and I don't know of any... It's fascinating that you found one though! I'm sure the question is "how" they were treated and not "how they might have been" treated.



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11 Jan 2013, 5:17 pm

IdahoRose wrote:
In my opinion, it sounds far too much like a love song as opposed to a devotional song. What tipped me off was how she asked her not to love a cheating man. If it really was for the Virgin Mary, then she probably would have asked her to forgive or love other people. Then again, it was written a very long time ago so we may never know what the author's true intentions were.
The cheating man part tipped me off too. I thought it would be an odd thing to ask of Virgin Mary. But like you said we cn't know because of it's age



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11 Jan 2013, 6:14 pm

Anomiel wrote:
I think your interpretation is right. I was going to recommend some LGBT writers and poets (both ancient and antic and contemporary) but then I saw that you wanted specifically medieval european ones and I don't know of any... It's fascinating that you found one though! I'm sure the question is "how" they were treated and not "how they might have been" treated.
Might I recommend you make a list of them to post as a new topic because it would be useful and interesting?
Yes examples was what I was looking ofr and if i do find any i will post here



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11 Jan 2013, 6:20 pm

Hildegard von Bingen's religious songs are sometimes speculated to contain somewhat lesbian themes. What do you think of this? I don't know because I don't know what the words/translation is to her music (I have not listened to it yet either)



fossil_n
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12 Jan 2013, 2:37 am

If you haven't already, I recommend you look up Inseparable: Desire Between Women in Literature by Emma Donoghue. This is basically a history/analysis of 'lesbian' (quotes because this word is relatively modern) themes in literature ranging through medieval Europe and up to the early 20th century. So far I've only read the free kindle sample on Amazon because I have a very small book budget, and a long list of books to read, but from what I read it seems to be very well done.

On the poem, I agree it definitely sounds like a love poem. Like you said, it specifically references fin' amor, courtly love, which is not a friendship. Fin' amor is supposed to be between a noble lady and a knight, but the line :"don't go and love some cheating man" is ambiguous. The way the adjective cheating is used makes it sound like perhaps the author is describing all men as cheating, which implies the author is female.

I suspect this poem was written so that it would have several meanings. A writer in this time and age couldn't just put out material that explicitly references same sex relationships. Therefore, they would write something that, on the surface, has one or more acceptable meanings. The author of this poem probably aimed for this to be interpreted superficially as from a male perspective to either a noblewoman or the Virgin Mary. However, more discerning, and hopefully more tolerant readers would get the deeper meaning.



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12 Jan 2013, 4:26 pm

fossil_n wrote:
If you haven't already, I recommend you look up Inseparable: Desire Between Women in Literature by Emma Donoghue. This is basically a history/analysis of 'lesbian' (quotes because this word is relatively modern) themes in literature ranging through medieval Europe and up to the early 20th century. So far I've only read the free kindle sample on Amazon because I have a very small book budget, and a long list of books to read, but from what I read it seems to be very well done.

On the poem, I agree it definitely sounds like a love poem. Like you said, it specifically references fin' amor, courtly love, which is not a friendship. Fin' amor is supposed to be between a noble lady and a knight, but the line :"don't go and love some cheating man" is ambiguous. The way the adjective cheating is used makes it sound like perhaps the author is describing all men as cheating, which implies the author is female.

I suspect this poem was written so that it would have several meanings. A writer in this time and age couldn't just put out material that explicitly references same sex relationships. Therefore, they would write something that, on the surface, has one or more acceptable meanings. The author of this poem probably aimed for this to be interpreted superficially as from a male perspective to either a noblewoman or the Virgin Mary. However, more discerning, and hopefully more tolerant readers would get the deeper meaning.
I've never read it. I do plan to now. I should add that the first place I heard of this song was the two-volume Women of the Middle Ages: An Encyclopedia . On Amazon it's 472 dollars, however. I agree that the poem doesn't explicitly show that she is a woman who loves a woman (it would be risky for her to show such a thing) like you said.



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19 Jan 2013, 11:28 am

one-A-N wrote:
The phrases "charming company" and "I moon around and sigh for you" also sound more like the words you address to an equal who is physically present, rather than to a saint who is above you in dignity and who would (I suspect) be regarded more as a spiritual presence (i.e. up in heaven, not down on earth).

So I think it plausible that it is a poem from a female to a (living) beloved female.
The presence sounded physical to me too. That is a good point.



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19 Jan 2013, 11:57 am

From the book: "Some of The lyrics of woman troubadours , in paticular those of Bietris de Roman, suggest something of romantic relationships that might have developed between women in the higher ranks of courtly society." What poems are these? Besides Na Maria that is. It also mentions a love letter from a nun longing for another womans company (a specific woman?) and village women from 15th century France being charged for having sexual relations (I would like to locate these. It is also worth noting in that time and place it appears sexual relationships between women was criminalized (I assumed it was so with men, having read of a few cases and of a specific torture device.) It also mentioned how convents prevented sexual relationships between nuns.



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19 Jan 2013, 12:27 pm

I found some very interesting stuff on riabrodell.com's series Butch Heroes.
"Katherina Hetzeldorfer was tried, and then drowned in the Rhine, for a crime that didn’t have a name in 1477. She/He had moved to the city of Speier from Nuremberg with a woman who, during the trial, Hetzeldorfer said was a sister. They had lived in Speier for two years before Hetzeldorfer was arrested. They had apparently confided in members of the community describing the nature of their relationship like that of a husband and wife. After intense cross examination Hetzeldorfer revealed that the woman was not a sibling but that they had a long standing sexual relationship. (Hetzeldorfer’s wife may have escaped because she was not heard from in the trial transcripts )Hetzeldorfer was described by female witnesses who claimed to have been seduced by him/her as “being like a man in both physique and behavior, a sexually aggressive character and a potent lover.” " It appears the gender identity was unknown, at least to the author. The site has more but the rest is not in the time/area I am looking at. It might be good to look at.



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02 Feb 2013, 9:35 am

"Why do you want your only one to die, who as you know, loves you with soul and body, who sighs for you every hour at every moment, like a hungry little bird... as the turtle-dove, having lost its mate, perches forever on its little dried up branch, so I lament endlessly... you are the only woman I have chosen according to my heart."
-12th century woman lamants her seperation from another woman
"In 1405 a French woman called Laurence appealed against a conviction for Lesbianism, insisting that her partner, Jehanne, had been the instigator of the crime"
Westminster Wisdom
http://gracchii.blogspot.ca/2008/05/med ... bians.html

Abstract: In the late 15th century, a monumental brass was laid in the church at Etchingham (East Sussex) to the memory of two never-married women, Elizabeth Etchingham, who died in 1452, and Agnes Oxenbridge, who died in 1480. This article investigates the possible social meanings of their brass, with a particular eye to Alan Bray’s recent interpretations of other funeral monuments dedicated to same-sex couples.
Lying in the south aisle instead of the
chancel, it remembers not a male heir but a daughter, and an unmarried one at that:
in the early 1480s, a brass was laid in the church in memory of Sir William’s greatgranddaughter
(or possibly, great-great-granddaughter) Elizabeth Etchingham who
had died in 1452. The brass joined her in perpetuity with another unmarried daughter
of another east Sussex dynasty, Agnes Oxenbridge who died in 1480. In 2003, Alan Bray argued in his
posthumously published The Friend that Europeans have long celebrated intense,
same-sex friendships and that the Christian church has long accommodated these
friends in rituals that both bound them together in life and buried them together
in death. Bray, who wrote about the history of homosexuality before it
was fashionable to do so, was at pains to stress in The Friend that these monuments
celebrate emotional intimacy and friendship, not necessarily sexually expressed love. We have no evidence that
Elizabeth Etchingham or Agnes Oxenbridge ever married, and their brass memorial
gives us two good reasons to suppose they never did. Husbands are almost always
specifi ed on women’s grave inscriptions, but none were noted here; similarly, the
depictions of the women — Elizabeth Etchingham with long fl owing hair and both
with uncovered heads — bear the then-conventional signs of unmarried status. Peter Coss has explored how the
development of joint effi gies from the late-13th-century represents ‘a celebration of
marriage’,53 and certainly such joint designs had come by the 15th century to symbolise
the marital relationship as it was then ideally conceived — a union sanctifi ed
by God, supported by families, and marked by fi delity and common purpose. In
this context, the joint effi gies of Elizabeth Etchingham and Agnes Oxenbridge could
not but have evoked a close relationship; like a husband and wife, they were shown
sharing a monument in perpetuity. But their relationship was emphasised in other
aspects, too, for they were also shown facing each other, moving towards each other,
and looking directly into each other’s eyes.Because the shift to semi-profi le fi gures had only just begun — and fitfully so — by1480, the designers of the Etchingham-Oxenbridge brass had many choices about how
to arrange Elizabeth Etchingham and Agnes Oxenbridge on their joint memorial.
They could have portrayed both women faced to the front in what was still the most
common effi gial pose; they could have portrayed one faced front and the other in
deferential turn; they could have shown both in profi le, praying towards a cross, altar,
or other object placed between them. They chose to show both women turned with
equal force towards the other, in a pose that evoked the newly stylish and intimate
turn of marital brasses.Perhaps, as I have particularly
suggested here, Elizabeth Etchingham and Agnes Oxenbridge shared such an
intense — and possibly ‘lesbian-like’ — relationship in their twenties that Agnes
sought joint burial and joint commemoration when she died almost three decades
later.71 But it is also possible that Agnes Oxenbridge began to serve in the Etchingham
household as an adolescent, never left it, and was buried alongside a child for whom
she had once fondly cared. And perhaps other circumstances drew these two women
together, either as con temporaries, with Agnes Oxenbridge surviving Elizabeth Etchingham
by twenty-eight years, or as a trans-generational pair, with Agnes Oxenbridge
both older and longer-lived than Elizabeth Etchingham.
By Judith M. Bennett
Journal of the British Archaeological Association, Vol. 161 (2008)
http://www-bcf.usc.edu/~judithb/documen ... rBrass.pdf



fossil_n
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02 Feb 2013, 8:49 pm

That is really interesting, thanks for pointing it out!



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02 Feb 2013, 10:21 pm

fossil_n wrote:
That is really interesting, thanks for pointing it out!
What in paticular? You're welcome and thank you!