Metal Archives

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What does everyone think of metal archives? I personally think that they are a good source of information for what they have information on, but the site design is poor, it just isn't visually pleasing, and they are ridiculously elitist. If a band is trying to archive ALL METAL BANDS then they should take a liberal definition of what is metal, not a ridiculously "conservative" one. If all these techdeath bands are metal, then certainly Disturbed, Periphery, Avenged Sevenfold, or Led Zeppelin are metal.

I think sub-genre classification has gotten totally out of control. I used to be a real "Black Metal" fan, but I no longer attempt to differentiate between Metal sub-genres. I either like it or I don't.
Not yet sure what I think of the "Metal Archives" site.

some people i knew at college were on MA all the time and it's just populated by teens trying to out-metal one another. they're also seriously brainwashed by marketing labels, and these dumb stereotypes about like death metal only coming from certain places, etc. it's also heavily skewed toward black and death metal, rather than melodic stuff. overall, MA is decent and i've learned a lot about music there but you're right - they exclude huge swathes of the genre.

fwiw, periphery isn't like a7x or disturbed which could be viewed as hard rock (but i would consider a7x a form of power metal / melodic metal). bands like periphery and animals as leaders that come from the same prog influences that produced tech death and symph black and whatever. they all grew up listening to meshuggah etc. on the other hand, bands like within temptation self-identify as hard rock but are viewed as metal because they are on metal labels - since metal labels are probably a huge part of the scene, period, in northern europe.

sort of like there are some american power metal bands signed to alternative / hard rock labels such as cleopatra. same idea. there's probably some stupid culture component to it too, like in the '90s how some japanese bands were not considered metal, then somebody realized that gee, a lot of j-rock sounds like power metal and wow, these american 'progressive hard rock' bands also fall under that category despite being under a different marketing label.

It's definitely an interesting site, and I've learned a lot of interesting trivia on it, though I will agree that it is slanted too much towards death and black metal at the expense of other subgenres. I mean, I like some death and black metal, but I feel that since these subgenres receive a disproportionate amount of attention, people become discouraged from playing other subgenres of metal, and we end up getting dozens of bands that all sound bland and generic.

I can definitely see why they wouldn't consider bands like A7X or Disturbed to be metal, because quite frankly they really aren't, but there should at least be a section of the site where they document bands like them, as they've definitely had an influence and an impact in the world of metal. Plus, Fear Factory had its nu-metal years, Def Leppard had their glam years, and Metallica was basically an alternative/blues rock band at one point, and they're all listed in the archives, so it seems kind of unfair to completely ignore other bands that have straddled the lines between rock and metal.

From what I seen on the internet, in general many people are elitist about their own sub-genre of metal. Metal is metal. Who cares who has more breakdowns and less breakdowns. I think bands like Dillinger Escape Plan, Emmure, The Black Dahlia Murder, Cattle Decapitation, Winds of Plague are awesome. I listen to a wide variety and I agree that metal should be a liberal definition. Some people like their metal to be more melodic or much heavier or more technical.

While it's arguable whether most of Disturb's music falls is heavy metal or not as most of it falls somewhere under "alternative metal", which is basically semi-metal, their album Indestructible is heavy metal through and through. Similar things can be said about A7x. Anyway, I listened Led Zeppelin as well, which I don't consider heavy metal, they point is they don't consider ANY of those bands heavy metal even though, as you said, they've played an important part in the scene.

Metal Archives has been a huge influence on my interest in metal. I have long used it as a filter and pretty much consider it to be my gold standard when it comes to identifying bands that I may be interested in. That's not to say that I don't like the bands that they exclude from their site (I'm quite fond of Deftones and Tool for example) but I understand why they don't have them listed. There are some lapses in their logic though. As much as I love Faith No More, their inclusion on the site seems to contradict many of their rules regarding non-metal bands.

Many of the people on MA are very young people who feel that they have something to prove, and few people on the site are musicians. Take their recommendations with a grain of salt the size of a boulder. A7X are definitely metal, as are Led Zeppelin. Taking that site as a "gold standard" could be a bit shortsighted.

A7X and Disturbed walk a weird line in that they are heavier than most hard rock, but at the same time they have too much pop-friendliness to really be "metal". This is not to say that metal can't be radio-friendly, because I know that classic Black Sabbath and Metallica songs are occasionally played on the radio, but I don't think those bands strived so much to be commercially viable (well, Metallica started going more commercial with their self-titled album, but most of the songs on that album are still straight-up heavy f*****g metal with a few forays into alternative rock territory).

It's a hard thing to explain, but the more a hard rock/metal band incorporates things like catchy verse-chorus-verse structures, the less likely they are to seem "metal". A lot of it is just really intangible and hard to put into words though. The only way a person can really determine if one of those bands is metal or merely hard rock is by years and years of listening, and learning the little nuances that distinguish one from the other. I'm still in that learning process, to be completely honest, and the reason why is because I have this obsessive need to put labels on everything. Most people don't, because they simply don't care, though I don't doubt that there are many people out there who try to learn the whole "labeling" thing and give up on it because it's too difficult.

Disturbed has never sounded at all hard rock to me. They are generally alternative metal and sometimes nu metal, which isn't exactly metal, but they just don't sound like hard rock. It's not like their aren't any undeniably metal bands with pronounced choruses. For example, this song
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhY9GOhFwN4&feature=kp[/youtube]
is FAR poppier than anything by Disturbed, yet for some reason nobody is arguing it is hard rock rather than heavy metal. That's probably the most extreme example, but you can find countless other radio-friendly Judas Priest songs with catchy choruses that are still clearly heavy metal, ranging from Another Thing Coming to Nightcrawler.

Skid Row is a band which moved from glam metal to true heavy metal, and since their first album they have stuck to being clearly heavy metal they are in metal archives. Here is one of their songs which marked how metal they became:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9SHMeUhTps[/youtube]
It's pretty freaking heavy, but it has a very clear line between the verse and the chorus. The chorus can be said to be catchy, especially in comparison to the verses. You can find similar song structures with countless other metal bands.

As for Disturbed, this is what Disturbed playing hard rock sounds like:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlhbgHMYAFM&feature=kp[/youtube]
Notice it's a Judas Priest song, this time a song by them that actually is branded as hard rock instead of heavy metal. The transition between the Painkiller and the song's drum beat highlights the distinction. Meanwhile, this is what Disturbed playing heavy metal sounds like;
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCDimqIEqD0&feature=kp[/youtube]
If this song isn't metal than I don't know what is. Anyway, arguing the semantics of what is or not is not hard rock is sorta pointless. Led Zeppelin was considered metal in their day. The only reason Disturbed isn't considered metal is because of when they formed. If they aren't going to include Disturbed, fine, but they need to be consistent with their criteria, and Disturbed and Led Zeppelin are considered hard rock as opposed to heavy metal for opposite reasons. If you are going to allow Alice in Chains in despite their alternative leanings, then there are a bunch of other bands which should be included as well. What I find hilarious is they have a ton of neofolk bands on the site even though neofolk has absolutely to do with heavy metal because they are side projects of black metal bands, but the nu metal side project of Anders Friden isn't allowed in. Apparently nu metal is SO UNMETAL that folk is more metal than it, despite the complete lack of electric guitars or riffs or anything.

Neither of those Disturbed songs sound that metallic to me, though that one Skid Row song is definitely metal. As for "Turbo Lover", it's a non-metal song by a metal band. Just as it's possible for metal bands to record non-metal songs, I believe it's also possible for a non-metal band to record metal songs. What makes me consider a band a "metal" band is how much of their material is metal; a band doesn't automatically become "metal" by recording one or two metal songs. Nine Inch Nails has recorded some excellent industrial metal, but their main style is alternative/industrial rock, so that's what I consider them to be.

But you know, at this point I'm really splitting hairs. My definition of metal differs from yours, and there's nothing wrong with that. I mean, my definition probably falls more in line with what Metal Archives says, but like you've noted, their definition is definitely biased towards a certain style of heavy rock music. And when you really think about it, at it's most basic level that's all metal is; a heavier, more intense form of rock.

EVERYONE calls Turbo Lover heavy metal. I don't know why, but I can't find a single reference to it saying it's hard rock or anything else as opposed to heavy metal. Meanwhile, Living After Midnight does get labeled as hard rock despite arguably being a heavier song, but the melodic and rhythmic differences between the two songs are fairly obvious. You seemed to miss my point about Living After Midnight being a hard rock song by Judas Priest, Disturbed was only covering it. Here is the original:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxsSVNhyiKk[/youtube]

The only thing about Torn that I can find that is slightly unmetallic is how the riff changes during the verse, which by no means makes the song non-metal. The riffing and drumming and even vocals are pretty freaking metal, at least IMO. Maybe this song might sound more metal, it's pretty different from Torn with it's riff structure.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFOcJKyRKxo&feature=kp[/youtube]
To me the two songs I posted are clearly in the style of traditional heavy metal, just with modern production. There are other songs from album which I think are even more clearly metallic sounding, like Inside the Fire, but they have small electronic elements.

Maybe why Disturbed is not hard rock would be more clear if I do the opposite of what I did with Disturbed with another band. Here is Halestorm playing heavy metal:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VM3BQl1UVX8&feature=kp[/youtube]

And here is Halestorm playing their usual hard rock style:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmkHqUwa4zg[/youtube]
They might even be the heaviest of all the bands mentioned, but there is just something obviously more hard rocky about them to me. Okay, that one sorta straddles the line between hard rock and heavy metal despite being the former, but this next one is obviously hard rock.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YhYRzNpJ-GQ[/youtube]
Maybe it's what's done with the chorus which makes the first song fall on the hard rock side, but simply having a catchy, radio friendly chorus doesn't make a band hard rock. Otherwise this song would be hard rock
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1FkbvGl-IU&feature=kp[/youtube]
when it's pretty obviously heavy metal. Heck, even black metal can have catchy choruses
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kI7F2GrNJtE[/youtube]
Or maybe I just have a warped idea of what is catchy and not. *shrug* Anyway, let's not forget about power metal, or even better, symphonic metal.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GdZn7k5rZLQ[/youtube]
The chorus in that song is catchy as hell, or at least it would be if the lyrics were understandable, hence "Where is the Love?" . Yes, it's new Nightwish, not old Nightwish, but it's still clearly metal, just a light variety than In Flames, Xanthochroid, Judas Priest, and yes, Disturbed. The band Amaranthe is even poppier than the song Amaranth, showing how metal can be poppy without being hard rock. In all honesty, hard rock seems to be a much narrower label than heavy metal, even though taken literally all metal should be hard rock.

In short, Disturbed is NOT HARD ROCK! Call them industrial grungecore or whatever, but they are clearly more akin with Judas Priest and Black Sabbath than Guns and Roses and AC/DC. They are only hard rock in the context of this quote:



[/end rant]



I can agree to that, but I still want to debate.

I would consider "Living after Midnight" to be purely hard rock. "The Night" comes fairly close to metal, but not quite. None of the three Halestorm songs seem that metallic to me. "Take This Life" seems like a weird attempt at taking elements of extreme metal and giving it a pop structure. "In Putrus Stagnum" sounds like lame, generic black metal. "Amaranth" is just amazing, and it really nails that epic fantasy feel. I'm a bit torn with it though, because on the one hand the structure and vocals almost suggest pop, but the guitars and "epic" feel of the whole thing place it squarely in metal territory.

There were only two actual Halestorm songs, one of them was a cover of Slave to the Grind, which you said was metal. The Halestorm version is the same song, only even heavier and with a girl singing. There seems to be some inconstancies with your system if their cover of Slave to the Grind is not metallic at all while the original is solidly metal. Anyway, what you call "fairly close to metal" I call "definitely heavy freaking metal", and while Love Bites I see as clearly being hard rock, I hear definite metal traits in it, even if just the level of speed and aggression compared to most hard rock. As for Take This Life, In Flames was one of the pioneers of melodeath, so they can do what they want. I don't think you've heard much as metalcore, as that's what I'd call a weird attempt of making pop out of extreme metal. Take This Life has a fairly normal metal structure in comparison.

Example:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CkW0bZmuLk[/youtube]

*lame, generic SYMPHONIC black metal

Amaranth IS pop, it's also metal, the two aren't mutually exclusive. As you said, the guitars are clearly metal. With the epic part, I agree an epic feel is generally a trait of metal as opposed to hard rock, but their are some exceptions. Obviously their is plenty of metal without an epic feel, like a good amount of extreme metal, but there are also some hard rock bands with an epic sound, like Crush 40.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gPBmDptqlQ[/youtube]
Though Crush 40 does do metal on occasion.

Which makes me ask, what type of metal do you usually listen to?

I gave the Halestorm cover of "Slave to the Grind" another listen, and I still think the original version is much heavier and more metallic. The Halestorm version sounds like hard rock trying to "ape" metal. I think the production actually has a lot to do with it too though; the Skid Row version sounds much "dirtier" and has more of an obvious bass groove.

The type of melodeath I like isn't so much the kind that In Flames plays, as the type that Children of Bodom plays. In reality though, I would call CoB blackened power thrash rather than melodeath.

Atreyu kind of reminds me of Billy Talent, with a slightly heavier edge. I might have to look into them, as I rather like that sound. Metalcore tends to get a lot of s**t from metalheads, but I actually really like it. I consider it more of an offshoot of pop-punk than a type of metal.

Ugh, Crush 40. Their instrumental stuff is alright, but I don't care for their vocals. It fits perfectly with Sonic Adventure 2 however, and I should know this as I replayed it not too long ago. It's one of those games where I like it mainly for nostalgia value, and not necessarily because it's actually a decent game. I mean, some of the gameplay elements were good, but it had far too many problems with the camera and the controls, not to mention the cheesy voice acting and plot. Sorry, I went off-topic there. Crush 40 and SA2 are just intrinsically-linked to me.

It's funny you ask what kind of metal I usually listen to, because I don't actually have a preferred genre of metal, and most of the time I don't usually listen to straight-up metal; instead, I'm usually listening to industrial or one of the many forms of alternative rock, like grunge, nu-metal, pop-punk, or whatever. My favorite "metal" band however is actually Metallica, and even then they've done a lot of genre experimentation. They started out thrash in the early 80s, ventured into progressive thrash in the mid-late 80s, stripped their sound back to conventional heavy metal in the early 90s, experimented with everything from alternative blues rock to country music and symphonic metal in the mid-late 90s, did a thrash/nu-metal album in the early 2000s, then returned to heavy/thrash metal in the late 2000s. And let's not forget the infamous collaboration they did with the late Lou Reed a few years back, which I would consider art-rock.

I actually think the Halestorm production is what makes it sound heavier to me, as I don't associate dirty with heavy, so there you go. Like I find death metal to sound heavier than grindcore for that reason alone, because you can actually hear everything heavy riff instead of them all just fading into noise. Also, I consider bass licks to be more rock than metal because metal generally puts less emphasis on the bass than rock does. Whatever.

Are you only familiar with new In Flames, or do you know their old stuff as well? Like this:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJ2pT6mBrTM&feature=kp[/youtube]
I think Children of Bodom has sick neoclassical riffs and overall awesome instrumental work, but the vocals aren't as good.

I think most Atreyu songs are significantly heavier than that one, it's just the first one I found. Metalcore came out of post-hardcore, not pop punk, big difference. Only like A Day To Remember sounds like pop punk. Anyway, even though it came out of the "hardcore" scene (real hardcore punk fans frown heavily on modern post-hardcore as it's not punk in the slightest) I consider metalcore to musically be metal. As for how I like it, I like melodic metalcore riffs, and the chorus vocals are catchy, but breakdowns suck and the screams in metalcore suck.

Crush 40 is the best part of the 3d Sonic games.

Well we are discussing metal, so it would be natural to discuss metal. I like pretty much all types of rock, but metal and alternative are probably my favorites, prog and punk also rate high. Within metal my favorite genres are probably symphonic, progressive, alternative, power, traditional, and melodeath. My rank for hard rock vs heavy metal is based on my preference of traditional heavy metal over hard rock, though their are plenty of hard rock groups that I prefer over plenty of metal groups. Eh, I never really liked Metallica much, I mean I don't dislike them and I like their songs when I listen to them, but they've never had much particular appeal to me. In general I'm not a big fan of thrash, though Metallica would probably be my second favorite thrash band after Anthrax.