26 Aug 2010, 5:15 pm
Ambivalence wrote:
I don't think the Foundation series is very good - especially given it's a bastardised version of Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, right down to some of the characters, which really takes the shine off it,,,
Really? I really liked that aspect of it. At the time I was reading it, comparisons were being made between Foundation and the U.S. - Japan post WWII economic relationship. Today i think it's more applicable to China. I really like it when an author can take historical perspective and apply it to a fictional setting, and it ends up being reflected in modern history. Proof yet again that if we don't learn from history's mistakes, we really are doomed to repeat them.
Titangeek
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27 Aug 2010, 5:15 pm
27 Aug 2010, 5:46 pm
27 Aug 2010, 5:46 pm
27 Aug 2010, 5:49 pm
Ambivalence
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Joined: 8 Nov 2008
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27 Aug 2010, 7:34 pm
MrXxx wrote:
Ambivalence wrote:
I don't think the Foundation series is very good - especially given it's a bastardised version of Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, right down to some of the characters, which really takes the shine off it,,,
Really? I really liked that aspect of it. At the time I was reading it, comparisons were being made between Foundation and the U.S. - Japan post WWII economic relationship. Today i think it's more applicable to China. I really like it when an author can take historical perspective and apply it to a fictional setting, and it ends up being reflected in modern history. Proof yet again that if we don't learn from history's mistakes, we really are doomed to repeat them.
Asimov was good at writing logic puzzles and bad at writing English. His Robot stories and his mysteries are original and stand for themselves despite the writing, but the Foundation trilogy dresses up an unoriginal story with space battleships, pocket-atomo-can-openers and godawful writing.
And it's not much good as science fiction or analogy - we learn from history, or we should, but that doesn't mean that history repeats itself directly - the modern world, let alone a galaxy spanning human Imperium in the grim darkness of the far future *ahem*, ain't ever gonna rigidly follow historical parallels ("they're more... guidelines.") Foundation's Edge and Foundation and Earth are better; at least they're recycling his own material... 
27 Aug 2010, 7:57 pm
Ambivalence wrote:
MrXxx wrote:
Ambivalence wrote:
I don't think the Foundation series is very good - especially given it's a bastardised version of Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, right down to some of the characters, which really takes the shine off it,,,
Really? I really liked that aspect of it. At the time I was reading it, comparisons were being made between Foundation and the U.S. - Japan post WWII economic relationship. Today i think it's more applicable to China. I really like it when an author can take historical perspective and apply it to a fictional setting, and it ends up being reflected in modern history. Proof yet again that if we don't learn from history's mistakes, we really are doomed to repeat them.
Asimov was good at writing logic puzzles and bad at writing English. His Robot stories and his mysteries are original and stand for themselves despite the writing, but the Foundation trilogy dresses up an unoriginal story with space battleships, pocket-atomo-can-openers and godawful writing.
And it's not much good as science fiction or analogy - we learn from history, or we should, but that doesn't mean that history repeats itself directly - the modern world, let alone a galaxy spanning human Imperium in the grim darkness of the far future *ahem*, ain't ever gonna rigidly follow historical parallels ("they're more... guidelines.") Foundation's Edge and Foundation and Earth are better; at least they're recycling his own material... Well, I quite enjoyed it, including his writing. Perhaps we see historical perspective differently. I look more at overall trends more so than details. Those I do see repeating over and over throughout history. So much so it's pretty scary.
Titangeek
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Joined: 22 Aug 2010
Age: 30
Gender: Male
Posts: 7,696
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27 Aug 2010, 8:32 pm
Ambivalence wrote:
MrXxx wrote:
Ambivalence wrote:
I don't think the Foundation series is very good - especially given it's a bastardised version of Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, right down to some of the characters, which really takes the shine off it,,,
Really? I really liked that aspect of it. At the time I was reading it, comparisons were being made between Foundation and the U.S. - Japan post WWII economic relationship. Today i think it's more applicable to China. I really like it when an author can take historical perspective and apply it to a fictional setting, and it ends up being reflected in modern history. Proof yet again that if we don't learn from history's mistakes, we really are doomed to repeat them.
Asimov was good at writing logic puzzles and bad at writing English. His Robot stories and his mysteries are original and stand for themselves despite the writing, but the Foundation trilogy dresses up an unoriginal story with space battleships, pocket-atomo-can-openers and godawful writing.
And it's not much good as science fiction or analogy - we learn from history, or we should, but that doesn't mean that history repeats itself directly - the modern world, let alone a galaxy spanning human Imperium in the grim darkness of the far future *ahem*, ain't ever gonna rigidly follow historical parallels ("they're more... guidelines.") Foundation's Edge and Foundation and Earth are better; at least they're recycling his own material... I am going too have to agree with you one that one. The only book of his that i like (and even then i hated the ending) was
Fantastic Voyage II.
28 Aug 2010, 11:55 am
29 Aug 2010, 2:18 pm
Janissy wrote:
Here on earth, when two very different cultures come in contact with each other, violent conflict usually happens. It's not surprising that movies reflect that. Sometimes there is a brief bubble of peace. We got "E.T" and "Close Encounters of the Third Kind" during such a bubble in the U.S. Since 9/11, I think the American market for "peaceful cross cultural meeting" fiction has really waned.
Yep. You're right. All this Hollywood "aliens are always evil" crap started during the height of the Cold War. It's pretty much accepted that aliens in pretty much all Sci-Fi movies during the Fifties were analogous to Russia's communist regime. IN a way, from the beginnings then of popular Sci-Fi movies, until now, they do mostly seem to have reflected current events and mentalities.
I guess I have a hard time with that because (and here we go with the "chicken/egg" thing), I'd prefer art to make people think about possibilities than to simply reflect what's already on everybody's minds. That, to me, isn't daring at all.
Yeah, I know. "Whatever sells..."
Titangeek
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Joined: 22 Aug 2010
Age: 30
Gender: Male
Posts: 7,696
Location: somewhere in the vicinity of betelgeuse
29 Aug 2010, 2:22 pm
MrXxx wrote:
Janissy wrote:
Here on earth, when two very different cultures come in contact with each other, violent conflict usually happens. It's not surprising that movies reflect that. Sometimes there is a brief bubble of peace. We got "E.T" and "Close Encounters of the Third Kind" during such a bubble in the U.S. Since 9/11, I think the American market for "peaceful cross cultural meeting" fiction has really waned.
Yep. You're right. All this Hollywood "aliens are always evil" crap started during the height of the Cold War. It's pretty much accepted that aliens in pretty much all Sci-Fi movies during the Fifties were analogous to Russia's communist regime. IN a way, from the beginnings then of popular Sci-Fi movies, until now, they do mostly seem to have reflected current events and mentalities.
I guess I have a hard time with that because (and here we go with the "chicken/egg" thing), I'd prefer art to make people think about possibilities than to simply reflect what's already on everybody's minds. That, to me, isn't daring at all.
Yeah, I know. "Whatever sells..."
Acutely i think the first appearance of Aliens being evil was H.G.Wells War of the Worlds
29 Aug 2010, 2:28 pm
Titangeek wrote:
MrXxx wrote:
Janissy wrote:
Here on earth, when two very different cultures come in contact with each other, violent conflict usually happens. It's not surprising that movies reflect that. Sometimes there is a brief bubble of peace. We got "E.T" and "Close Encounters of the Third Kind" during such a bubble in the U.S. Since 9/11, I think the American market for "peaceful cross cultural meeting" fiction has really waned.
Yep. You're right. All this Hollywood "aliens are always evil" crap started during the height of the Cold War. It's pretty much accepted that aliens in pretty much all Sci-Fi movies during the Fifties were analogous to Russia's communist regime. IN a way, from the beginnings then of popular Sci-Fi movies, until now, they do mostly seem to have reflected current events and mentalities.
I guess I have a hard time with that because (and here we go with the "chicken/egg" thing), I'd prefer art to make people think about possibilities than to simply reflect what's already on everybody's minds. That, to me, isn't daring at all.
Yeah, I know. "Whatever sells..."
Acutely i think the first appearance of Aliens being evil was H.G.Wells War of the Worlds
Yes. As a book. It's Hollywood's movie adaptations that I'm actually addressing. Not the books. There are a plethora of books that portray aliens in a much different light, but no movies are ever made of most of them. That's the issue I have. The first rendition of War of the Worlds, wasn't made into a movie until 1953. The radio play, which of course was broadcast in 1938, played on the same type of fear, but in its case, it was fear of the Nazi threat. Same thing as far as the "why" goes.
Titangeek
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Joined: 22 Aug 2010
Age: 30
Gender: Male
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29 Aug 2010, 2:56 pm
MrXxx wrote:
Titangeek wrote:
MrXxx wrote:
Janissy wrote:
Here on earth, when two very different cultures come in contact with each other, violent conflict usually happens. It's not surprising that movies reflect that. Sometimes there is a brief bubble of peace. We got "E.T" and "Close Encounters of the Third Kind" during such a bubble in the U.S. Since 9/11, I think the American market for "peaceful cross cultural meeting" fiction has really waned.
Yep. You're right. All this Hollywood "aliens are always evil" crap started during the height of the Cold War. It's pretty much accepted that aliens in pretty much all Sci-Fi movies during the Fifties were analogous to Russia's communist regime. IN a way, from the beginnings then of popular Sci-Fi movies, until now, they do mostly seem to have reflected current events and mentalities.
I guess I have a hard time with that because (and here we go with the "chicken/egg" thing), I'd prefer art to make people think about possibilities than to simply reflect what's already on everybody's minds. That, to me, isn't daring at all.
Yeah, I know. "Whatever sells..."
Acutely i think the first appearance of Aliens being evil was H.G.Wells War of the Worlds
Yes. As a book. It's Hollywood's movie adaptations that I'm actually addressing. Not the books. There are a plethora of books that portray aliens in a much different light, but no movies are ever made of most of them. That's the issue I have. The first rendition of War of the Worlds, wasn't made into a movie until 1953. The radio play, which of course was broadcast in 1938, played on the same type of fear, but in its case, it was fear of the Nazi threat. Same thing as far as the "why" goes.
True, true. But you would think with the success of movies like E.T or shows like Star Trek that there would be many more scyfy movies that portray alien at least for the most part in a good light.
29 Aug 2010, 3:16 pm
Titangeek wrote:
MrXxx wrote:
Titangeek wrote:
MrXxx wrote:
Janissy wrote:
Here on earth, when two very different cultures come in contact with each other, violent conflict usually happens. It's not surprising that movies reflect that. Sometimes there is a brief bubble of peace. We got "E.T" and "Close Encounters of the Third Kind" during such a bubble in the U.S. Since 9/11, I think the American market for "peaceful cross cultural meeting" fiction has really waned.
Yep. You're right. All this Hollywood "aliens are always evil" crap started during the height of the Cold War. It's pretty much accepted that aliens in pretty much all Sci-Fi movies during the Fifties were analogous to Russia's communist regime. IN a way, from the beginnings then of popular Sci-Fi movies, until now, they do mostly seem to have reflected current events and mentalities.
I guess I have a hard time with that because (and here we go with the "chicken/egg" thing), I'd prefer art to make people think about possibilities than to simply reflect what's already on everybody's minds. That, to me, isn't daring at all.
Yeah, I know. "Whatever sells..."
Acutely i think the first appearance of Aliens being evil was H.G.Wells War of the Worlds
Yes. As a book. It's Hollywood's movie adaptations that I'm actually addressing. Not the books. There are a plethora of books that portray aliens in a much different light, but no movies are ever made of most of them. That's the issue I have. The first rendition of War of the Worlds, wasn't made into a movie until 1953. The radio play, which of course was broadcast in 1938, played on the same type of fear, but in its case, it was fear of the Nazi threat. Same thing as far as the "why" goes.
True, true. But you would think with the success of movies like E.T or shows like Star Trek that there would be many more scyfy movies that portray alien at least for the most part in a good light.
That's my thinking too, but I think Janissy has a point. Stuff happened on a global scale since then, that I do think changed popular concepts. Now, we have yet another evil enemy. Hollywood is simply, yet again, exploiting that popular perception. During the time period of ET and the rise (again) of Star Trek, is was far less on the minds of the populace. Even during the Sixties, when Star Trek first emerged, Roddenberry "lucked out" in that his timing was perfect. What he offered was an alternative of the type a lot of people were looking for. Once the Gulf War happened, and everything that followed, including 9/11, which pretty much confirmed popular "paranoia," which turned out not to be paranoia at all, but a real threat, along with all the hoopla about illegal immigration, aliens are yet again "evil entities."
Too bad. It seems the age of daring producers is pretty much gone. I guess my concern is what it says about society that so many people are attracted to whatever is perceived to be popular, rather than what they really think themselves. The same sad thing has been happening in music too.
Titangeek
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Joined: 22 Aug 2010
Age: 30
Gender: Male
Posts: 7,696
Location: somewhere in the vicinity of betelgeuse
29 Aug 2010, 3:23 pm
MrXxx wrote:
Titangeek wrote:
MrXxx wrote:
Titangeek wrote:
MrXxx wrote:
Janissy wrote:
Here on earth, when two very different cultures come in contact with each other, violent conflict usually happens. It's not surprising that movies reflect that. Sometimes there is a brief bubble of peace. We got "E.T" and "Close Encounters of the Third Kind" during such a bubble in the U.S. Since 9/11, I think the American market for "peaceful cross cultural meeting" fiction has really waned.
Yep. You're right. All this Hollywood "aliens are always evil" crap started during the height of the Cold War. It's pretty much accepted that aliens in pretty much all Sci-Fi movies during the Fifties were analogous to Russia's communist regime. IN a way, from the beginnings then of popular Sci-Fi movies, until now, they do mostly seem to have reflected current events and mentalities.
I guess I have a hard time with that because (and here we go with the "chicken/egg" thing), I'd prefer art to make people think about possibilities than to simply reflect what's already on everybody's minds. That, to me, isn't daring at all.
Yeah, I know. "Whatever sells..."
Acutely i think the first appearance of Aliens being evil was H.G.Wells War of the Worlds
Yes. As a book. It's Hollywood's movie adaptations that I'm actually addressing. Not the books. There are a plethora of books that portray aliens in a much different light, but no movies are ever made of most of them. That's the issue I have. The first rendition of War of the Worlds, wasn't made into a movie until 1953. The radio play, which of course was broadcast in 1938, played on the same type of fear, but in its case, it was fear of the Nazi threat. Same thing as far as the "why" goes.
True, true. But you would think with the success of movies like E.T or shows like Star Trek that there would be many more scyfy movies that portray alien at least for the most part in a good light.
That's my thinking too, but I think Janissy has a point. Stuff happened on a global scale since then, that I do think changed popular concepts. Now, we have yet another evil enemy. Hollywood is simply, yet again, exploiting that popular perception. During the time period of ET and the rise (again) of Star Trek, is was far less on the minds of the populace. Even during the Sixties, when Star Trek first emerged, Roddenberry "lucked out" in that his timing was perfect. What he offered was an alternative of the type a lot of people were looking for. Once the Gulf War happened, and everything that followed, including 9/11, which pretty much confirmed popular "paranoia," which turned out not to be paranoia at all, but a real threat, along with all the hoopla about illegal immigration, aliens are yet again "evil entities."
Too bad. It seems the age of daring producers is pretty much gone. I guess my concern is what it says about society that so many people are attracted to whatever is perceived to be popular, rather than what they really think themselves. The same sad thing has been happening in music too.
I agree with you for the most part. But how do you explain the success of shows like Stargate (SG1 Atlantis Universe) and BattleStar Galactica? And video games like Halo?
29 Aug 2010, 4:25 pm
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