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Falloy
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07 Jan 2014, 1:51 pm

Some of my random thoughts;

I guess that there have always been manufactured boy bands. Isn't this what The Monkees were? There were certainly bands of attractive boys marketed to girls in my teenage years (Duran Duran, Spandau Ballet etc). There just seems to be far more of it now. There also seem to be fewer alternatives to it - or at least fewer alternatives that make a big impression.

In theory, the Internet sounds fantastic for popular music. I could sing a song now and upload it onto YouTube and have people listen to it (except for the fact that I have no musical ability whatsoever). Artists from years ago would have killed for that exposure. Further, as a consumer I can purchase only exactly the songs I want, not have to buy a album containing three hits and a load of filler. It doesn't seem to be producing great results though.

I wonder if the role of popular music has changed. When I was growing up the music listened to was really important. It helped define who you were. It influenced your politics. Nowadays it seems less important to young people. Do people buy new music the minute it gets released (as I waited outside the shop to buy The Queen Is Dead all those years ago)?

Is it less important now (genuine question - I'm about as out of touch as you can get)?

If it's less important to people's lives are they less passionate about it? Is music just trivial and about trivial things? Would it be possible for someone like a Bob Dylan or a David Bowie or even The Dead Kennedys to develop (let alone become a success) now?

I don't doubt that there is still good music being made now but is it great or really innovative? Certainly a lot of stuff I hear now sounds like rehashes of what has gone before (Savages sound an awful lot like Siouxsie and the Banshees to me...)

Or am I just old and my time for embracing new stuff has passed? :)



eric76
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07 Jan 2014, 4:38 pm

Robdemanc wrote:
eric76 wrote:
Robdemanc wrote:
Perhaps even the ISP's will get in on the act and somehow charge subscribers depending on which sites they use. So if you log online to view music then you pay accordingly and some of that money goes back to the artists.


That is NOT going to happen. It would be a nightmare for the ISPs. If they were to charge subscribers based on the sites visited, you can bet that whatever charges there were would go to the ISPs pockets to cover the costs of doing so.


They could automate the process easily.


There are millions of web sites. Do you really think that ISPs can easily determine for each web site whether or not there should be charges and to whom they are due? In many cases, there could be tens or hundreds of thousands of files, possibly each file owned by a different individual. Furthermore, there is often not one copyright holder but many. For example, multiple royalty payments can be owed from one song -- for example, separate royalty payments for the performer, the song writer, and the music composer. And they may have assigned their royalties to someone else or may have died with the royalties going to completely different heirs. In many cases for older performances, determining exactly who owns the copyrights could take hundreds of man-hours. And there may be court decisions that have to be considered.

And there are thousands of web sites added daily. And thousands of additional files that would have to be taken into account added daily.

If it were at all possible for this to be automated, the amount of hardware and support would be enormous, the costs of which would have to be passed on to customers.

How would you like to see an extra $50/month added to cover the costs of automating the process and maintaining it? For what it's worth, I don't think it would be possible to automate it for only $50/month/user.

I'm not sure it could be done for less than $5,000/month/user. Well, maybe it could but for a different reason -- if your internet cost $5,000/month then you would probably just give it up as being unaffordable. It would essentially shut down the internet and every ISP.



eric76
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07 Jan 2014, 4:39 pm

A small ISP might not even be able to afford the postage necessary to mail the checks to all the various royalty owners.



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07 Jan 2014, 4:49 pm

eric76 wrote:
Robdemanc wrote:
eric76 wrote:
Robdemanc wrote:
Perhaps even the ISP's will get in on the act and somehow charge subscribers depending on which sites they use. So if you log online to view music then you pay accordingly and some of that money goes back to the artists.


That is NOT going to happen. It would be a nightmare for the ISPs. If they were to charge subscribers based on the sites visited, you can bet that whatever charges there were would go to the ISPs pockets to cover the costs of doing so.


They could automate the process easily.


There are millions of web sites. Do you really think that ISPs can easily determine for each web site whether or not there should be charges and to whom they are due? In many cases, there could be tens or hundreds of thousands of files, possibly each file owned by a different individual. Furthermore, there is often not one copyright holder but many. For example, multiple royalty payments can be owed from one song -- for example, separate royalty payments for the performer, the song writer, and the music composer. And they may have assigned their royalties to someone else or may have died with the royalties going to completely different heirs. In many cases for older performances, determining exactly who owns the copyrights could take hundreds of man-hours. And there may be court decisions that have to be considered.

And there are thousands of web sites added daily. And thousands of additional files that would have to be taken into account added daily.

If it were at all possible for this to be automated, the amount of hardware and support would be enormous, the costs of which would have to be passed on to customers.

How would you like to see an extra $50/month added to cover the costs of automating the process and maintaining it? For what it's worth, I don't think it would be possible to automate it for only $50/month/user.

I'm not sure it could be done for less than $5,000/month/user. Well, maybe it could but for a different reason -- if your internet cost $5,000/month then you would probably just give it up as being unaffordable. It would essentially shut down the internet and every ISP.


Ok I admit defeat. An ISP would not get into charging for individual website. But a website could be invented as a virtual venue ( a bit like Youtube) for artists to post their performances and people could subscribe to the site and the website owners could pay the artist based on number of views etc.



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07 Jan 2014, 4:52 pm

Falloy wrote:
Some of my random thoughts;

I guess that there have always been manufactured boy bands. Isn't this what The Monkees were? There were certainly bands of attractive boys marketed to girls in my teenage years (Duran Duran, Spandau Ballet etc). There just seems to be far more of it now. There also seem to be fewer alternatives to it - or at least fewer alternatives that make a big impression.

In theory, the Internet sounds fantastic for popular music. I could sing a song now and upload it onto YouTube and have people listen to it (except for the fact that I have no musical ability whatsoever). Artists from years ago would have killed for that exposure. Further, as a consumer I can purchase only exactly the songs I want, not have to buy a album containing three hits and a load of filler. It doesn't seem to be producing great results though.

I wonder if the role of popular music has changed. When I was growing up the music listened to was really important. It helped define who you were. It influenced your politics. Nowadays it seems less important to young people. Do people buy new music the minute it gets released (as I waited outside the shop to buy The Queen Is Dead all those years ago)?

Is it less important now (genuine question - I'm about as out of touch as you can get)?

If it's less important to people's lives are they less passionate about it? Is music just trivial and about trivial things? Would it be possible for someone like a Bob Dylan or a David Bowie or even The Dead Kennedys to develop (let alone become a success) now?

I don't doubt that there is still good music being made now but is it great or really innovative? Certainly a lot of stuff I hear now sounds like rehashes of what has gone before (Savages sound an awful lot like Siouxsie and the Banshees to me...)

Or am I just old and my time for embracing new stuff has passed? :)


I think the Monkees were actors/singers and had their own show before releasing records. Duran Duran were in no way manufactured, they formed themselves and wrote their own music and got in on the production. They played their own instruments. They just happened to be pretty enough for the girls to scream at. But I have a couple of their albums and I would say they were serious musicians.



eric76
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07 Jan 2014, 5:07 pm

Robdemanc wrote:
Falloy wrote:
Some of my random thoughts;

I guess that there have always been manufactured boy bands. Isn't this what The Monkees were? There were certainly bands of attractive boys marketed to girls in my teenage years (Duran Duran, Spandau Ballet etc). There just seems to be far more of it now. There also seem to be fewer alternatives to it - or at least fewer alternatives that make a big impression.

In theory, the Internet sounds fantastic for popular music. I could sing a song now and upload it onto YouTube and have people listen to it (except for the fact that I have no musical ability whatsoever). Artists from years ago would have killed for that exposure. Further, as a consumer I can purchase only exactly the songs I want, not have to buy a album containing three hits and a load of filler. It doesn't seem to be producing great results though.

I wonder if the role of popular music has changed. When I was growing up the music listened to was really important. It helped define who you were. It influenced your politics. Nowadays it seems less important to young people. Do people buy new music the minute it gets released (as I waited outside the shop to buy The Queen Is Dead all those years ago)?

Is it less important now (genuine question - I'm about as out of touch as you can get)?

If it's less important to people's lives are they less passionate about it? Is music just trivial and about trivial things? Would it be possible for someone like a Bob Dylan or a David Bowie or even The Dead Kennedys to develop (let alone become a success) now?

I don't doubt that there is still good music being made now but is it great or really innovative? Certainly a lot of stuff I hear now sounds like rehashes of what has gone before (Savages sound an awful lot like Siouxsie and the Banshees to me...)

Or am I just old and my time for embracing new stuff has passed? :)


I think the Monkees were actors/singers and had their own show before releasing records. Duran Duran were in no way manufactured, they formed themselves and wrote their own music and got in on the production. They played their own instruments. They just happened to be pretty enough for the girls to scream at. But I have a couple of their albums and I would say they were serious musicians.


As I remember, the Monkees were put together by Hollywood for the show with the explicit intention of doing both a tv show and selling record albums.

If they had just wanted to produce a tv show, they likely would have used actors instead of musicians.



eric76
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07 Jan 2014, 5:12 pm

Robdemanc wrote:
Ok I admit defeat. An ISP would not get into charging for individual website. But a website could be invented as a virtual venue ( a bit like Youtube) for artists to post their performances and people could subscribe to the site and the website owners could pay the artist based on number of views etc.


There are some, eMusic.com for one.

By the way, I work at an ISP. We have had customers very upset that they had to pay for music and porn sites on their own. They thought their monthly fee to us for the connection should cover any and all pay sites.



paddy26
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07 Jan 2014, 9:28 pm

There's less money in music now than in the past (which is probably a good thing as most albums were overpriced) but there are just as many people listening to and making music if not more. Live music is doing better than ever and although new artists are doing more for themselves I think record companies are still relevant if only to pay for recording and promote acts (how else could a new artist get on the radio?). There has been a decline in sales but the sale of independent records and vinyl has gone up. I think in the future there will be better quality audio formats (something like Wav files) but physical formats like tape, CD or vinyl won't go away as they provide a connection between artists and fans that digital music doesn't. As for live music I could maybe see something like pay per view gigs you can watch live at home (or maybe this already happens). I think there will also be some sort of music reaction against itunes and mp3s similar to punk or something(which should be cool).



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08 Jan 2014, 11:48 am

There will always be good music and bad music in whatever form. The difference is for us older folks we don't know about the new good music or don't understand it when we do hear it. As an older person the constant autotune in todays the top 40 gets tiring. But I still would take it over 1970s top 40' groups such as Barry Manilow, John Denver, The Carpenters, The Osmond's etc.


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09 Jan 2014, 1:47 am

The_Walrus wrote:
Robdemanc wrote:

I would say this can only be blamed on the lack of talent and the boyband/girlband manufactured rubbish that has been produced for over ten years.

That's a popular opinion, but it doesn't really make sense. 2013 probably saw more good music being made than any previous year. We had top draw albums from Vampire Weekend, The National, David Bowie, Kanye West, Arcade Fire, Chvrches, Frank Turner, Pusha T, Emily Barker and the Red Clay Halo, My Bloody Valentine, Foals, and Cage The Elephant. In fact, as the amount of good music increases, record sales decrease. And it's not like I'm picking artists off the street there, those are all artists with VEVO channels who receive media attention and radio airtime. Most of them have already had critically acclaimed albums.

I would blame the way people consume music. Digital music means we're more likely to just buy the single, and the rest of the album isn't purchased. To some people my age, the idea of owning an album is alien.


There were many great albums released in 2013 and I bought 3 of them, the problem is the majority of the artists listed here really did not get a fair chance, mainstream top 40 radio hardly touched any of it and now a days almost everyone has a VEVO channel so it really comes down to what channel gets promoted the most.

My favorite release was the new Alice in Chains album and its singles were only played on the collage station, a classic rock station and a classic rock/alternative station. Had it made its way to the top 40 and other high volume stations it could have stayed on the charts for more then the 8 weeks it did and it would have made it higher then the high single digits it did. The problem is that the stations that have say 75% of listeners prefer to listen to their corporate and record label bosses and play Blurred Lines 7 times a day, yes I said 7 times and with only 24 hours in a day and only about 12 hours of real listenership less commercial, news and talk show time you can begin to see the problem in promoting a broad range of artists. The same issue cross over to the internet and its called saturation, the idea that indie artists can use the internet to overthrow the majors is wrong because even there the majors are saturating the content therefore obscuring the indie artists.

Music fans invest the time and effort to find new and good music, most people just listen to whatever is convenient therefore the same small group of well marketed trash will get there singles downloaded, because for most that is all that exists in the world.



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09 Jan 2014, 1:57 am

I quit caring about popular music years ago. I just listen to whatever I feel like, whether it's Depeche Mode or Metallica or some underground DJ or whatever.



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17 Jan 2014, 12:00 am

redrobin62 wrote:
I'd like to see a resurgence in rock again. The top-selling draw in 2013 was Bon Jovi so band music is alive and well. Metal has devolved into growls. Hopefully that's just a trend and won't last too long. Electronic music artists and rap artists are bringing 'em in now. Macklemore just did three sold out dates at Key Arena. Whenever Jay-Z, Eminem, Beyoncé, Lady Gaga, Rihanna or Bruno Mars play, electronica's right up front. The times and music have changed.

It's good to know that it never all goes away, though. I'm sure Bach, Mozart, Beethoven and Tchaikovsky would be astonished that their music is still being played and recorded worldwide. There seems to be room for everything - jazz, punk, waltzes, indie, folk, bluegrass, country, etc. I'd say music is pretty healthy right now.


Bach was one of the few that you mentioned that did not write for posterity. Mozart sorta had an inking of an idea that his music would still be around, and Beethoven and any great composer after him definitely was writing for posterity.



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17 Jan 2014, 12:32 am

It's high time the music industry and distribution changed! Do you realize that 4 companies control 90-95% of the acts, (popular, jazz, and classical) in the entire WORLD?

From largest to smallest:

Sony/BMG (which owns RCA, Columbia, Epic, and several other labels)
Vivendi Universal(Which owns Decca (British and American), MCA, Phillips, Polydor, ECM, Deutsche Grammophon, Mercury, and related labels)
Thorne EMI (Capitol, EMI, Angel)
WEA (Warner Brothers, Elektra/Asylum, Atlantic)

Further, while I seldom hear of it nowadays, you still have some problems with payola, or paying kickbacks to a radio DJ to plug a label's product.

In addition, most A&R (artist and repertoire) agents don't know talent even if it bit them in the arse. Those of us that are old enough to remember who Mitch Miller was (as in Sing Along with Mitch TV show from the 1960's), will know of a lot of the acts that he signed with Columbia Records when he was head of A&R for Columbia's pop music division: Chicago, Tony Bennett, Johnny Mathis, Johnny Cash, etc. It also helped that Mitch as a classically-trained musician (he was an oboist) and knew how to spot talent.

Could a Mitch Miller exist in today's environment? I don't know. I highly doubt it, as the Big 4 are only concerned about pushing product, regardless of whether the new acts actually have any talent. Some of the contracts the new acts sign with a label don't leave any room for development. If the act's first album doesn't hit triple platinum within 6 weeks, you may never hear of them again.



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17 Jan 2014, 7:34 am

Yeah it is disgusting the way only a few companies own it all. It stifles variety and creativity. And produces blandness.



intravenus_de_milo
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18 Jan 2014, 10:25 am

Everything you all have discussed is why I don't listen to FM or AM radio anymore.

There's so much great music out there. You just need to look in the right place for it. And over-the-air radio is not where you are likely to find it. I've discovered a lot of great music with various internet radio stations. Live365 has thousands of radio stations with every musical genre you can imagine. Since they are created by people like you and me, anyone can start a radio station there and share their music with everyone else.

Also, if you get music thru iTunes or Amazon, they can sometimes give you recommendations of other bands you might like based on what you have already bought. Youtube also has music, and there are some bands that promote their music by putting it on there. My Bloody Valentine posted their entire MBV album on YouTube.

Just my two cents' worth of advice.



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19 Jan 2014, 12:56 am

Collage stations can be good though, the major labels don't care too much about short range training stations and the quirky kids running them haven't been domesticated or bought out by the majors yet.