2007 Albums

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well i got the nationals new album and modest mouse album.
They are both good, but not their best work.
The new Pelican album was disappointing.
I dont know what is coming out next

I think "In Sorti Diaboli" is probably closest to "Death Cult Armageddon." Purists will HATE it. I loved "Death Cult," myself, so it's no wonder I like "Diaboli"...I like the heavy emphesis on orchestral/classical elements. XD



Props for liking Kovenant, dude. ^_~

Thing is I'm really picky about any music, even my favorite genres. Gary Numen and :wumpscut: never really got me in that special place that made me go "Ooo! I like this!" I've tried listening to Godflesh before, I never considered them to be the least industrial even though people said they were industrial metal. (Not synthetic-sounding enough, I guess.) Still, thanks for the recommendations--I'll look them up.

In turn, I recommend you check out Angelspit (Mick Mercer gave them a very positive review, by the way--I remember you like him), Emilie Autumn (recent works--she's more Victorian-Gothic than Industrial, but check her out for the amusing lyrics alone), The Birthday Massacre, Collide, Combichrist (the song "Get Your Body Beat" is some lovely EBM), Lore (the song "Haunting" features the guy from London After Midnight), The Retrosic, Sulpher, and Marazene (though they're industrial/metal...their MachiNation album has gotten some very positive praise).

psycroptic have and album coming out soon .... i think

i didnt expect much from manson's new album, from the myspace songs its considerably better than i thought it would be .... without a doubt better than golden age of grotesque

did anyone else like the new mayhem album?

If I remember correctly they were one of the first bands I got into on MySpace, and that was over a year ago, if not more. Doesn't matter what they are they've been very influential. Well it seems to me that you focus alot on bands with heavy pop leanings, which means that you'll probably hate Brighter Death Now. Maybe you just haven't found your truly favourite genre? Or listened to it much? When I was just getting into Gothic Rock most of it sounded weird (As if they'd just picked up a bunch of instruments or things that weren't instruments and just banged out whatever they could.) or not right, but I'd come back to it maybe a week or a month later and it would sound great. Or you might think you have a better grip on the music you like than you really do.

Sorry but I'm way ahead of you, most of those bands I already either like or have known about for a long time.

I heard Angelspit a long time ago on MySpace because she was being advertised, I took a peek and although it sounded "good" I wasn't really impressed. Also I hear that he gave a good review for this other UK band citing them as being the fututre of Goth or something, even though they seem to be just falling into line on the heels of some of the success bands that look Goth have been enjoying, fact is they're crap, I saw it on a Goth group I was passing through and the Goths on there weren't impressed either, and were particularly concerned about the glowing review he gave that band (Not the one you mentioned). Yes I also know about Emilie Autumn, and Mz Anne Thropic, or however say it, these kinds of bands have been getting alot of coverage by MySpace so how could I not? I got into The Birthday Massacre a long time ago. Same with Collide, who in fact I'm pretty sure I mentioned in my Goth Topic that I posted so long ago. I also know about Combichrist, they're very popular with that Cybergoth croud. Haven't heard of the other bands though.

I rant too much.

Job For a Cowboy releases Genesis on the 15th.

Unquestionable Truth Pt.2 (Name Might Change) - Limp Bizkit

Untitled Metallica Album

I looked them up...nothing particularly grips me about them. I do like some ambient music, but this sounds just like a meaningless mess of static. I certainly don't hate them, though--they're more tollerable than My Chemical Romance. Just not my thing.

I could be wrong about this, but it seems like there's two sides to all music affiliated with gothic/industrial and related genres (both rightly associated and wrongly associated)--the traditional, minimalist Buahaus/The Cure/etc. style (which I guess would be the "truly gothic" according to purists), and the more elegant, glamorous style (stuff that you label as "pop" or with "heavy pop leanings"). I loath the former, love the latter. And as I've said before, I loath most bands that are actually pop--Britney Speares, Justin Timberlake, I can't stand s**t like that. Most of the things I like to hear in music just requires a decent budget--a lot of truly independent bands can't afford to have a whole orchestra backing them up (like, say, the more recent works of well-known metal bands NightWish or Dimmu Borgir), or a high recording quality. Also note that nearly all the bands I like are commonly dark, or creepy, or strange, or sad--none of these things exist frequently in pop.

Many of my favorite bands are considered popular, but as I've argued before, that doesn't automatically make it pop. Cradle of Filth, for example, isn't pop at all despite being very mainstream. Mushroomhead's more recent works may be more mainstream, but the only album I like by them is XX (my 2nd favorite album of all time), and that album couldn't be LESS pop. For another matter: for a majority of my favorite bands, if I click to see if anyone else likes them on my college's facebook, well, nobody else does--and when other people do, it's usually still not that many. So they're not that mainstream here--hell, practically nobody I know has even heard of "industrial music." DX

Also, I very much like industrial rock like Orgy or MM or Zeromancer, and it's sometimes called "death-pop" (indeed, that's what Orgy calls itself), but it's still completely different from normal pop to me. I know you like to lump anything mainstream with pop, but to my ears there's a HUUUUUGE difference. When I listen to music, it's all about the tone, and to me pop has a completely different tone than MM or Orgy, or Evanescence for that matter (which is sometimes called pop, when to me it's just extremely sad, dark, depressing, sometimes-symphonic rock with occasional gothic leanings--and basically nothing like pop, except perhaps "Call Me When You're Sober," the only song by them I really hate). If someone else can see how these bands are so pop, then that's fine for them, I'm sure there are a lot of elements of music I pay no attention to, but that's not what I like about them, so please don't judge MY taste in music on YOUR perception of it. My love of the band Dark Sanctuary is a perfect example. They're not the least bit pop. I have no idea what the French lyrics mean. I love them simply because of their darkly elegant, sad atmosphere, and the vocalist's beautiful voice. Or consider Ayin Aleph--she has nothing to offer to the pop crowd, music that exists completely in its own realm.



I understand what you're trying to say--it took me a long time to be able to appreciate Dimmu Borgir because I hate the vocalist, and I like them a lot now because of the symphonic elements. But the thing is, I still don't completely love it and I know I never will. I hate the singing style too much. It's not always a matter of getting used to it, I just dislike a lot more things than I like.

See, I don't have one single favorite genre because I'm too picky, and I don't expect that to change. If I don't like the vocalist, I don't like the band. If I don't like the sound of the instruments, I don't like the band. That's how it is for most bands in ANY genre, and ANY band in most genres. I listen to music for the way it sounds, nothing more. The lyrics can be incredible and I won't listen to it if the tone isn't right. For nearly all of my favorite bands, I'd change a lot of about them if I had my way, be it the lyrics or the voice or the sound of the guitars. I like symphonic metal, for example, but Nightwish is too cheesy and over the top for me to COMPLETELY love that band, and Dimmu Borgir's vocalist is too annoying for me to COMPLETELY love that band. (Both are very high on my favorites list, though.) I like neo-classical like Dark Sanctuary, but it can get boring and monotonous so I have to be in a certain mood. Etc. etc. etc. I pay attention to specific bands and not as much to genres, especially since people argue about genres so much that I'm honestly sick of hearing about them. I'll state what I think a band's genre is for clarity and because I know OTHER people pay attention to genres, but yeah.

You always act like I'm completely ignorant about all dark alternative music. I'm certainly ignorant about some of it, yeah, but I won't pay attention to music that I don't like and I don't see why I should.



Okay, just thought I'd throw them out there just in case. I wasn't actually aware that they were getting advertised that heavily on MySpace--they have elaborately-designed MySpace pages to promote their music, yes, but I never saw links to those pages on the front page of the music section. But okay, whatever. (This is really nitpicky, but Angelspit is a duo, not just a girl--the man sings just as much.)

they might be giants - the else




so great so far!! !! ! can't wait to buy the limited edition cd when it comes out!! !


reel big fish are coming out with monkeys for nothing, chimps for free....which is a really horrible album name but the description sounds promising and should be interesting since it'll be their first album in a long long time that wasn't released on a major label (mojo was technically universal so it still sucked).

Well first of all I don't know what happened but most of what I said seems to have gone straight past you, so I'll start with the worst of it, and try to keep in my that none of this is said with any malice, or anger or whatever you might percieve.

Brighter Death Now is not Ambient it is Death industrial (Not saying this specifically is the worst but this paragraph is the worst), yes it might sound like a mess of static, but first you have to get into older Industrial genres, when you do and research a little you realise it is just another rebellion against the previous rebellion in music. Personally I hate them, they f**er who makes the music, he targets Gothic Rock saying that it's pretentious or something in a interview on his MySpace profile (Fields of the Nephilim, Bauhaus, ect), ignoring the fact that he's the pretentious one and that what he says has been said a million times before!



I've said it before and I'll say it again, there's no connection between the bands you call Goth and the ones I call Goth, if you're talking about Evanescecne (I don't know what is supposed to be Gothic to you anymore) I clearly stated and supported with a website (In another Thread) that they are influenced by a band who is somewhat influenced by Gothic Rock, how is that "Two sides"? Yes I would agree that in a way there are in a way two sides, bands that rebelled against the mainstream and the bands that want to profit from that rebellion, but these have no connection with each other, It's like comparing bloody Offspring with The Ramones, they have a very tenuious connection yes but that does not mean in any way that one progressed from the other nor does it mean that one took any nottible amount of inspiration from them, if you doubt this do some research, check up on what Mick Mercer and other Historians of music have to say, because they didn't just cook it up out of some childrens book, they were there, they talked to people, and they did their research. Wait so what you're basically saying is that these were Pop bands that didn't have enough money to record what they wanted? If you are you really need to do your research, and just so you know, most of The Cure's Discography is not considered Goth, Pornography is the last Album that they made that could be deffinitivley considered Goth. Sorry I ranted alot there but I couldn't quite grasp what you were trying to say, you seemed to go from one thing to the next without warning.



I label all music that people at school I know (Or as it stands now used to know) have heard of Pop, that is to say I use it as a synonym for Mainstream, I'm pretty sure I explained this in another Thread also. They've had MTV exposure, whether or not your "friends?" at Facebook watch MTV or go to Church isn't really important.



Again anything in the mainstream is for me, Pop, that does not mean their genre is Pop, it means that that is their status, as opposed to say, being unpopular. Haven't I already explained that I like Dark Sanctuary? I said as much in the Classical Thread I'm sure of it.



Maybe, but I used to think and feel the exact same way about music back when I only listened to Marilyn Manson, Mudvayne, ect, then I started listening to Chiasm (Not a Goth band) and wanted more.



Exactly, I felt the same about the bands I claimed to "like", then I discovered bands that I really do like. See, I'm not critising you (Nor your music), I'm trying to show you that there might very well be bands that you could like completely, and I'm frustrated that all I get back is "I understand but I like this (Improper use of label), and you like this (Improper use of label)", you act like you understand how my music relates to yours and it gets annoying.



Well if you think you're ignorant on it don't talk about it, I'm not saying you shouldn't look into it, I encourage you to do this, just don't say "Well this is such and such ect", in my opinion you're not doing any good when you don't at least inform people that you're not some allmighty authority on the subject, if you don't do it I'm convinced people will believe you without questioning what you say, and people should always question what they're told.



They aren't getting heavily advertised, they're just getting more exposure than most, I think the most popular bands in all the respective genres get that amount (I don't think I'm explaining myself properly as always). It seems to me that you think I'm arrogant or prone to getting into arguements, something like that, you yourself have said that you tend to not like people or find faults easily, I'm not quite sure what I'm trying to get at here as it's 3:00 in the morning. It just seems like you always expect the worst from me, and yet you say that I judge your taste in music or whatever.

Oh and I agree that a Major Label can help a lot, as is proved by The Flaming Lips, I'm not the Indie fanatic you seem to think I am.

Notice how I said "both rightly associated and wrongly associated." Meaning bands that the media dubs gothic even if they're not actually gothic. Cradle of Filth, for example, may or may not be "gothic" depending on who you talk to, just as they may or may not be "black metal" depending on who you talk to. But let's say that they do have gothic influences--then they're clearly a part of the former category, the more elaborate elegant kind of gothic, even if they're also clearly a metal band. Or what of Emilie Autumn? While she calls herself Violindustrial sometimes, she calls herself gothic in others, and again her sound is very elegant, nothing like the bleak style of traditional gothic bands. So I wasn't specifically talking about Evanescence here, in fact I wasn’t talking about them at all. Maybe Within Temptation is included there, but not Evanescence. I just have noticed that there are two very different styles, both described with the same adjective. (Well, one's "goth" and the other's "gothIC." But whatever.) There IS a connection--the connection is in what we call them, hence confusion like this happens on internet message boards. It's not a matter of one kind being easier to sell, or wrongly given the label--they're just two different things.

But you know what? Never mind about it. It was just an observation.



Aaaaagh! No! I never said that! What I said was a lot of things I LIKE in music requires a big budget that independent bands don't have. Consider independent symphonic metal bands--they can't afford an actual symphony, so it just sounds like crappy keyboard work, and I'm not interested in hearing it. I never said that they were pop bands--you were the one calling them pop! Also, I never said that too many people WANTED to record the things I like to hear in music.



You know, I first was going to reply to this and be all like "HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO TELL YOU THAT POP AND MAINSTREAM AREN'T SYNONYMS?" and argue about that all over again, but there is no point, you have made up your mind. I just consider the label of pop to be an insult to a band because I associate pop music with s**t.



You completely ignored what I was saying there! I never said you didn't like Dark Sanctuary, it was an example of how my musical taste isn't as "pop" as you think it is, that I pay attention to the mood and atmosphere and tone, NOT how mainstream they are.



First of all, you are assuming that I do not like the music I claim to like. I DO like the music I like, it's just in spite of problems that I have with much of it. Of course there might be bands I "completely" like, but I won't limit that to a single genre--then I'd be missing out!



Um, improper? Genres are a matter of opinion--they are NOT written in stone. If every band sounded like every other band in a genre there'd be no way to distinguish them. You can call it improper, but I'm just repeating what they say at allmusic, interviews with the bands themselves, etc. etc. Knowing a lot about a lot of different music doesn't make YOUR opinion about what a band is any more relevant. I can still consider The Kovenant's pre-SETI albums to be extreme metal even if you don't, which was BS in the first place because they friggin' called them "extreme metal" and I told this to you and you completely ignored it. AND what was even worse was that in your response--in which you said that they WEREN'T specifically black metal because they thought the genre was limited--you said that we should listen to what the band said as the #1 source, EVEN WHILE QUOTING THE PART WHERE I SAID THE BAND CALLED THEIR EARLIER WORK EXTREME METAL!



Uh, usually I DON'T talk much about bands that I'm ignorant about. When I do, it’s usually just to explain what a band is NOT like, or something. (I called the Cure traditional gothic earlier in this thread, yes, but that's because everyone except you says they are--goths included.)



Well maybe you shouldn't be reading my posts at 3:00 in the morning. Maybe then you'd understand what I was saying better. I expect the worst from you because I hated that long, bloated argument in the goth thread and it’s happening again. I’ve spent way too long writing this post already, and deleting parts to make sure that I’m being clear enough. You’re just so f*****g closed-minded about this s**t and in the end I don’t even know what’s the point, why I’m bothering to even f*****g post this. Hours per meaningless bloated post, I hate it. I hate talking to you on here most of the time. You act like you know more about music than everyone else. You act like you understand my taste and try giving unwanted advice on it, even while ignoring anything I say about WHY I like the music I like! And you DID judge my taste in music--you said I liked POP. That's a judgment.

Look I'm sorry about all the confusion but I can't help that, remember we're both Aspies right? Meaning is bound to get lost in there, just try not to spout off like you did, we're supposed to be adults alright? Lets act like adults.

There is no "Gothic" genre, unless you mean it as a synonym for Gothic Rock, or as an adjective to describe something, or as an abreviation of "Gothic Metal", no accossiation with Goth (As you can see it's all needlessly complex). No there are several styles that you and alot of other people describe with the same adjective.

Well you do ramble on alot, mixing up your point as you go along, at the time that I quoted you it was still pretty early, but I was still having trouble getting some sort of point from your paragraph, after I'd turned off the computer and got in bed I realised what you were trying to say but I was too tired.

I don't care if they are or they aren't that's how I do it, christ why should you care? I'm not saying that the bands you like take inspiration from Justin Timberlake, or sound anything like them, I'm recognising the fact that they are popular, and I've already explained that.

And as I've already said several times I'm not using Pop as an insult, it's a synonym for mainstream for me.

No I'm assuming that you don't like these bands as much as you might like other bands out there that you haven't yet heard of.

"A music genre is a category (or genre) of pieces of music that share a certain style or "basic musical language" (Peter van der Merwe 1989, p.3). Music may also be categorized by non-musical criteria such as geographical origin, though a single geographical category will normally include a wide variety of sub-genres. A music genre (or subgenre) could be defined by the techniques, the styles, the context and the themes (content, spirit)." - Wikipedia

I think that sums up my opinion well enough, and I hope that clears things up. I lterally haven't got a clue what you're talking about, I can't remember saying they're not Extreme Metal. Of course I consider them Extreme Metal, what's also strange is that you say that I said the band should be the number one source, I wouldn't say anything like that, bands often throw out any old word to describe their music just to appear different, but if the word catches on with the fans then yes it would be ok.

Well that's weird, I've seen you talk about what a band is several times, the most important being when you got into my Thread and shot down what I said with (From what I recall) not much more than what the people you know as evidence, I don't know if it's correct but you actually said that you consider what the people you meet say as more important than what it says in a book, as if books can't be trusted.

I shouldn't but I was watching 28 Days Later while responding to your post, it helps to do other things while on the computer because sitting in front of it for an hour or so just isn't healthy. Anyway before I knew it it was 3:00 in the morning, time flies by when you're having fun.

Yeah ok again you demonstrate what I already knew, you judgemental of me because of that bad experience back in the other Thread, which was because we weren't communicating properly, and now history is repeating itself just as you say.

No see you're judging me because of a bad experience, you're expecting the worst because of a missunderstanding and now you're judging me on another missunderstanding, if it makes you feel better I'll call it mainstream alright? It's what I've been saying all along anyway. I think the reason why you're still responding is you don't want all this BS to stand (Missunderstandings), and I don't either.

My last post was uncalled for, I'm sorry for what I said in the last paragraph there. >.< I'm also sorry for rambling. If I go from one point to another, usually it's in response to all the different things said in what I'm quoting. I don't always know which part I'm supposed to reply, so I just answer all of it in case they specifically wanted me to reply to one part. Either that, or I'm giving an example to illustrate my point, in which cases I usually say "for example." (You don't have to reply to this part, by the way, I'm just explaining. You can usually tell what I DO want you to reply to if I repeat it several times, because usually that means I didn't see how what you said connected at all to what I said. You still haven't said a thing about how I hear music in moods and tones, for example.)

I do agree that gothic is more of an adjective than a single genre. But that's kind of how it is for music genres in general, which is why I consider genres to be a matter of opinion. A lot of my favorite bands don't sound like other bands in their genre to me, even ones they take direct influence from. You mentioned in the other thread that MM takes a lot of influence from industrial rock group KFMDM, but tonally they sound completely different. Gothic Rock is particularly thorny because, again, there's so much variety. Again, Within Temptation is called gothic rock, and they don't sound a thing like traditional gothic rock. The gothic rock I like is the kind that Within Temptation is. (TANGENT: WT is part of why I consider Evanescence to be "gothic rock," by the way--they have a very similar sound. If anything Ev seems MORE gothic to me because they're darker and sadder and creepier, which are some of the elements in what makes a gothic tone to me, though NOT everything that's sad, dark, and creepy counts as gothic to me. (Also Amy Lee is blatant goth, complete with a love of Tim Burton movies and lyrics about suicide and social isolation and what not.) Please don't be all like "Evanescence isn't gothic, that's incorrect usage" again because it's a matter of bloody opinion.)

The part about The Kovenant was in reference to what you said here:

I'll admit that right before that you did say that their earlier works were black metal, but I wasn't sure which stance you were taking then because the part I quoted seemed to say that they're not extreme metal, so I thought you were saying they weren't extreme metal. I was too frustrated to respond then. Forgive me for misunderstanding.

I did talk about genres in your goth thread, yes, but then I still wasn't talking about bands I didn't listen to--I was talking about how the bands I DID listen to counted as gothic. That was also before I'd heard of traditional goth rock, so I was confused because I'd always liked all these things that used the gothic adjective and then I felt like you'd jumped on me and thrown a hissyfit when I said so. My sources weren't just the people I knew, they were still sites like wikipedia and allmusic and the bands' myspaces and what not, which I believe I said. (If I didn't, forgive me.) It's not that I think that books can't be trusted, I just am not interested in reading a book about traditional goth rock because I don't LIKE traditional goth rock--you're still telling me to do more research but you're not getting that I don't want to spend my time researching music that I don't like!

Well I'm not a mind reader.

I'm pretty sure that's 'cause they aren't like each other.

Lol, they're your Gothic Rock? Within Temptation sounds like Epica! Who is more of a Symphonic Metal band, you can check both of these things out by going to their respective encyclopedia metallum pages, which is a hugely well respected metalhead version of Wikipedia for Heavy Metal bands, you can also check this out by talking to people on Symphonic Metal forums and Gothic Metal Forums. Also I have listened to both Within Temptation and Epica, I know that they sound alike. I also seem to remember a Topic about Epica and WT and other similar bands, hehe, and to think if you'd mentioned that before this would have all been sorted out so easily. And that's pretty insulting saying that she's a "blatant Goth" just because she sings about suicide and social isolation, I don't believe they've ever been Goth subjects, Goths tend to sing about social problems, religion, although Themes are almost always hard to pick out because they rarely make things easy. Also I might be starting to ramble a bit but Goth was already extremely well established when Tim Burton came out, it seems to me like his Films were accepted by Goths, and maybe had a small amount of influence, but were not influential to any notable degree, except maybe in how Goths are seen. After all anything spooky, sad, "different", angsty, or satanic is almost always labeled Goth in my experience.

http://www.metal-archives.com/band.php?id=6716
http://www.metal-archives.com/band.php?id=6716

By that I meant that they used to be Black Metal (Specifically Melodic Black Metal), but they aren't anymore, it doesn't stop them from being Extreme Metal though.

Even then I admited that they might be Gothic (Adjective), but I'm still strongly opposed to them being linked to Gothic Rock stylisticly, and for more than just one reason.

Don't you know that you can't trust MySpace? Sheesh, those things will say anything! I've seen bands like AC/DC with "Afrobeat" as their genre, people just tag on anything that looks good. Even when it's the band themselves, and you should know by now that you can't trust the people you know, after all since when was anybody who held a majority opinion right about anything? You see chain letters everywhere and people think they're true, you see people buying into Astrology even when they don't quite believe or understand it, ok so maybe you don't see any of this but you see where I'm going with this right? My point is that people will buy into almost anything to simplify their life, it's the only thing you can count on besides death.

Well as I said all you have to do is go to the Encyclopedia Metallum and check it out, you can also find similar bands, except for Evanescence apparently, not Metal enough probably

I think thast your best bet for bands is looking at Symphonic Metal, Power Metal, Melodic Metal, and Gothic Metal bands, if you look for bands described as those genres you shouldn't have anything trouble finding bands you love.

isnt goth a form of music from sweden, gothenberg style or something that everyone copyed. btw blackmetal rules

Oh yes, I've heard Epica, and they don't sound like WT to me. At least not their recent works--their earlier stuff is metal, but "The Silent Force" and "The Heart of Everything" aren't metal at all, but just rock. Epica has always reminded me of Nightwish though. Liked them at first but it didn't last long. Thanks for trying, but you have to understand that I don't hear music the same way you do. Plus, I'm seriously picky about metal just like I'm seriously picky about all genres. Too much metal to me is over the top and cheesy (Therion's latest album comes to mind) and with some songs that go on way too long (Cradle of Filth comes to mind), and as I've said already I don't like that much symphonic metal because good symphonic metal requires a full orchestra that most bands can't afford. (I'm basically impossible to recommend music to. Sorry.)

I don't only get my information from MySpace. I also mentioned Allmusic and Wikipedia multiple times, and I also look at various other sites for specific bands. Please don't select specific things that I say and ignore the rest just to have an excuse to argue about something. And I wasn't saying Amy Lee was a blatant goth ONLY because she sung about suicide and social isolation--they were just examples. And I was under the impression that both of those things were very common gothic themes, just not traditional gothic. I know that Tim Burton's films weren't the first gothic films, but they are to many the definitive modern gothic cinema. And you can argue with that all you like but that won't change the opinions of all those people who think that and aren't reading this.

Just...look, I have a completely different outlook on gothic than you do. I understand that. But one of the reasons why I don't want to take your advice is because you seem so convinced that yout gothic is the ONLY gothic, and as I've been saying from the start that's just not true. I come from a whole different goth culture--the kind that's full of bisexual overweight wicca girls who love "The Nightmare Before Christmas" and "The Crow" and Cradle of Filth and Anne Rice books. And I agree that it's commercialized and mainstreamified and impure and that many of these "fake goths" are clones of each other, but it's still the culture that I like and can fit into, and the old goth is a culture that I don't fit into. I don't know how to communicate with you because I have a whole different idea about what gothic is hardwired into my system.

I'm sorry, man. I know you're trying to help. And I really don't mean to be difficult. >.<