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Power metal has existed pretty much for the entire time extreme metal has (both solidified during the early 80s). Just like extreme metal was largely a reaction to poppy watered down stuff (Def Leppard, Poison) power metal was a reaction to stripped down, noisy stuff (Venom, Possessed). Power metal fans are just as elitist as extreme metal fans, but the one thing they usually will agree on is what's not-metal and that the metal they don't appreciate is still definitely metal.

Also, what I meant was, without elitists around keeping metal alive in the underground the label metal would be tagged onto bands like Nickleback and whatnot (post grunge and other 'hard alternative' and whatever would have grown out of it had nu metal and mallcore crap not existed), with no 'true metal' around to contrast obviously not-metal hard rock with. Not only would it have ceased to exist as a distinct genre, the label would have came to lose all meaning whatsoever beyond 'distorted guitar rock'. As much as I'm not a fan of bands like Slipknot or Avenged Sevenfold, I will accept they basically represent 'extreme metal' as the mainstream would interpret it - meaning metal's survival isn't in question anymore, whereas circa the 80s there was a distinct possibility that metal would just be assimilated into rock.

I'd also insist that what's survived of metal is the exact opposite of 'watered down'. It's distilled. Sure, much of what's come out of the still has been mixed with what's come out of another still (the one used to distill hardcore and crust from punk rock), but at the end of the day, extreme metal and power metal both represent a purified and concentrated version of earlier metal. Even current watered-down forms of metal are made largely from the distillate (like watered-down brandy or whisky), whereas older forms were more like wine or beer. One might prefer wine or beer to distilled spirits, but there's no valid argument to claiming distilled spirits are less pure.



Playing fast takes skill, just like melodic composition and virtuosity do. Melodic w*king isn't the only way skill can be expressed - otherwise we could all give up and concede Yngwie Malmsteen is the best. It takes considerable talent to be able to compose complex songs when you can only play simple riffs - just like it takes quite a bit of talent and skill to be able to do great visual art with a monochromatic pallet.



I can agree with that largely, with one caveat. Metal is dark for the sake of darkness. Crust punk is dark to better communicate their message. It gets a little more confusing when you get into thrash metal bands with political themes, or heavy hardcore bands with no political or social message but both of those are newer innovations compared to when the 'rule' I described applied (79-81, vs. 83 onwards)

Extreme metal had to come first for power metal to form in reaction to it. Yeah, some power metal fans are also super elitist, but I don't think your claim they usually agree on what's not-metal and that the metal they don't appreciate is still definitely metal is anywhere near as consistent as you claim. First, I know power metal fans so elitist they don't even consider death metal to be metal, and many more contemporary extreme metal elitist who don't consider power metal to be metal (and then there are the people who still go by "hard rock has keyboards, metal doesn't" who don't find power metal metal, but they're a dying breed ). I'd say the power metal fans have a much more informed opinions. Then there is the slightly less pure elitists in each category, the extreme metal fans are more likely to accept grindcore as metal, while the power metal fans are more likely to accept glam metal as metal. Again, I agree more with the power metal elitists, though I'm not an elitist and take a less binary approach to metal.


That's a very debatable opinion, music journalists generally know what they are doing. The good ones are well aware of both the underground and popular trends, and play a pivotal rule in getting stuff out of the underground; most bands appreciate being promoted. Even if there was no metal underground, there would still probably be a separation between hard rock and heavy metal. And even if Nickleback get's labeled as metal, so what? It's not the end of music. Anyway, they do have at least one metal song in their discography:

If that's just hard rock, than so is half the stuff by Pantera. The song is literally just Pantera worship, it even includes an actual solo by Dimebag.


Rock has been using distorted guitars before there was even rock, it goes back to the blues. Metal has never been defined by using distorted guitars, and metal influence in other rock genres extends far beyond distorted guitars. Maybe there is a particular TYPE of distortion which is characteristic of metal, but the most heavily distorted stuff never was metal, it was certain strains of alternative rock. It's really alternative rock that kept metal from just completely taking over rock in the 80's, basically anything that wasn't heavily influenced by metal was branded as alternative rock at one point in time during the 80's, and there was still a few metal influenced alternative rock bands like Dinosaur Jr. and later Red Hot Chili Peppers. Then grunge came along, which other alternative rock was heavily influenced by metal, and that's when alternative rock got popular. So it's really not until pop punk in the mid 90's that metal wasn't dominating mainstream rock trends, than alternative metal dominated most of the 2000's, and it's now with indie rock that again metal isn't dominating mainstream rock trends. Either way, there is still a clear difference between metal and metal influenced rock, between Judas Priest and Gun N' Roses, between Metallica and Nirvana, between Disturbed and Nickleback.

Also, Avenged Sevenfold hasn't been extreme for over a decade. I don't know if they were even seen as actually representing extreme metal like Slipknot has.


I disagree. Extreme metal represents the extrapolation of metal influenced by punk rock, and power metal represents the extrapolation of metal influenced by prog rock. If you want to go to the distillation of what's purely metal, it's the often overlooked doom metal. While I prefer the power metal philosophy and the direction it takes metal in, the only thing metal brought that was really unique was the dark, Gothic elements into rock. Basically taking the aesthetics of shock rock and turning it into it's own genre.


Playing fast only takes skill in comparison to playing slow. Mashing the same power chords repeatedly is really easy when done slow, and it's still pretty when done fast. Hardest part about playing the Ramones or early Venom is not having your hand cramp up, I know this from experience. Reason why melodic w*king is so hard to do is because it's both complex AND fast.


I'd place composition talent in a fundamentally different category than technical talent. In this regard, I'd place the Ramones as being better than Venom. Now, if you want a band that's really great in the minimalist aspect, there is AC/DC, they stylistically base their songs around open chords and still manage come up with a ton of riffs. Deftones is another band which takes advantage of minimalism in riffmaking, though most their songs aren't very complex.



I actually agree with you on this.

Last edited by Ganondox on 21 Jun 2016, 7:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

^ I actually have to give Nickelback props for writing a tribute to Dimebag Darrell. Maybe they don't deserve as much hate as they get afterall.

They really don't. I mean, they kinda suck, but they really don't suck that bad, initially the hate was just for the popularity, and now their hate is more a meme than any legitimate dislike towards the band.

I've heard some argue the only reason Nickelback are considered bad is because they are simply average...mediocre. Generic.

And the fact they managed to be as successful as they are doesn't make any sense.

However, there's a lot of musicians popularly considered to actually be BAD rather than 'average' (e.g. Justin Bieber, Taylor Swift, Nicki Minaj, David Guetta, etc.) but still have massive continued success.

Not sure if popular or unpopular opinion: 3 doors down are just like Nickelback - boring and generic typical band that achieved more success than it deserves.

I agree. They're a popular band to hate, but in all honesty, they're merely mediocre. They have a few songs I actually like, a few I really don't, and the rest I just tolerate. "Animals" and "Figured You Out" are both guilty pleasures for me.

I never suggested it would be the end of music, only that had the genre not evolved the way it did, it could have failed to become relevant long ago.



Power metal basically grew out of NWOBHM sound, which was heavily influenced by punk. Most metal had been pretty slow until roughly '77, when that wave began laying the groundwork for most of faster tempo stuff to come, from power metal to thrash metal to black metal. Bands like Venom were one end of that sound, bands like Saxon or Iron Maiden were the other. Further, progressive elements show up in most of the genres that would be lumped together as extreme metal, in terms of arrangement and composition, and technical and progressive subgenres exist for all of them. Doom metal is basically the reaction to the fast stuff, both power metal, and thrash/death/black metal. Anyways contrasting doom metal with 'extreme metal' is silly, since some doom metal is extreme metal. A band like Eyehategod might get lumped roughly in with doom (sludge is a type of doom), but they're also quite punk influenced, and also count as 'extreme metal' too.

Yeah, both power metal and extreme metal take influence from both punk and progressive metal, that was just a simplification. And the earliest doom metal predated extreme metal so it can't quite be considered just a reaction to it, you got bands like Pentagram which were years before that scene, and other like Pagan Altar which just slightly predated extreme metal. Yeah, some doom metal is extreme metal, but that's a later progression and it's a subgenre thing, like technical death metal. It's specific early doom metal with specific early extreme metal that I'm contrasting as genre labels are fuzzy. The fact most metal was fairly slow until 1977 is exactly why I consider doom metal to be a more pure form of metal, whether or not it's a reaction to the NWOBHM doesn't matter for that.

"sludge is a type of doom" Hardcore punk is so different from doom metal I'm not sure sludge could really be considered a subgenre of both. Anyway, as far as sludge metal goes, Eyehategod is one of the bands that leans more towards hardcore punk than doom metal.

None of these are really unpopular opinions anymore, now this is just super off-topic.

Debating 'metal purity' is an inherently unpopular opinion because no body else cares.

Reign In Blood is the best thrash metal album released.
None So Vile is the best death metal album released - even if the rest of Cryptopsy's albums are weak.

Metal's been stagnant since the 90s and it doesn't matter.

Alright.

Metal has mainly gotten better since the 80s.

Eurobeat is the perfect music for driving.

Eurobeat in general is pretty awesome.

Bubblegum rock of the late 1960's (Ohio Express, 1910 Fruitgum Company, Archies) was actually quite good. It was not prog rock or meant to be the political or musicial statements that were popular at the time. The lyrics with all the outword candy color references meant for children had mischievous psychedelic and sexual meanings plenty of times. It stands up as fun pop rock it was meant to be.

The Cars, the Ramones, Blondie were influenced by this genre

I think Rush is awful, and I don't understand why people like them. lol Definitely not a popular opinion in Canada (or in most places it seems). I just really don't get it...

I think they are pretty good but not at the exaulted level most feel they are. Not that different then a lot of North American bands such as Kansas or Styx that were mixing prog with hard rock at the time.

Speaking of Styx, I think Mr. Roboto is an awesome song even though it's really cheesy.