Which is better Woodwind or Brass

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Oh please... Trombones are tuned in Bb just like clarinets are. Clarinets are NOT limited to equal temperament. That is a misconception. Pitch on clarinet can be manipulated or "voiced" to fit within any chord.

Besides, "just intonation" on a trombone or fretless instrument is possible only in theory. I mean, why else would string players and trombones use so much vibrato? Huh? I'm not talking about your music school Wire Choirs and Quarter-Tone Warriors--I'm talking about your professional symphony orchestra players. Yeah, the right pitch is in there, SOMEWHERE, I just KNOW it....

You can brag about how "just intonation" is "possible" on trombone all you want until you pass out because you can't circular breath. You'll notice that vibrato is uncharacteristic on clarinet. There's a good reason for that. It's called ACCURACY. We don't HAVE to play off-pitch and cover it up with "tasteful vibrato" or "shading."

Alycat: Just tuning refers to an alternate system of temperament which used to be popular. It doesn't work for pianos (unless you have a different piano for each key...) but it avoids some of the ugly compromises in the modern equal temperament system.

My trombone is tuned in Bb, F, and D.


Um... yeah, actually, I have used just tuning in ensemble situations before (trombone choirs). It's not only possible, but with reasonably competent musicians and a little care and focus, just tuning is entirely workable in a group of all trombonists. And it doesn't even have to be a group of great virtuoso trombonists to pull it off—we used just tuning quite successfully at a trombone summer camp consisting primarily of high school students and other amateurs, directed by the players from a low-professional orchestra (Dayton Philharmonic). The main reason just tuning is not always used is because using just tuning while the clarinetists and trumpeters are using equal temperament will make a mess, but if you don't have any instruments with limited control over their own intonation in your ensemble it is very much possible to use just tuning in practice.

Vibrato exists primarily for stylistic purposes. Trombonists use a lot less vibrato than, say, euphonium players, so your claim that we just use vibrato to cover up poor intonation doesn't hold water. The reason clarinetists don't use vibrato is because it sounds like crap when you do. The tone on a clarinet is so stiff that anytime you try to use vibrato it just sounds unnatural and forced (because it is).

Also: did I just see you indicate that you have better intonation than professional string and trombone players in top US orchestras?

No. I'm just saying clarinetists don't have to work quite as hard at it.

And nice move claiming that the reason for vibrato is for "style."

Doesn't hold water? Well, that much is true. But at least my instrument doesn't store it up and make that ugly gurgling sound.

In all seriousness: I actually do like a little vibrato in clarinet. I don't think it sounds "forced" at all. I also happen to be a big fan of Klezmer and Dixieland jazz clarinet, and I actually dislike that muddy sound that is in fashion with most clarinet professionals. I like a tone that cuts through a lot better without being thin. I'm ALMOST tempted to buy an Albert system and maybe work up some Klezmer chops, but I just don't have it in me to learn another fingering system. I'm also learning how to play the EWI, which (speaking of intonation) can handle any kind of tuning you can throw at it. Just to help me learn it, I went back through my old clarinet books only to find that kind of music is WAY too difficult for the EWI, so I found a saxophone method book to work from instead since the fingering is consistently similar. Otherwise, it feels like I'm stuck in the second register and I keep wanting to use clarinet fingerings in upper and lower octaves. I also love the thing since it's really only a controller, I can make it sound like whatever I want--and that appeals to me as a sound designer also. It's like being able to build your own instruments. Now I REALLY can't wait because I JUST got a Synclavier, which as of today is fully functional (they CAN be temperamental until they "settle in").

I'm also not really particular about intonation, to be perfectly honest. When I'm not playing keyboards to make money, I actually enjoy more dissonant kinds of music for which equal temperament is actually perfect. One note on piano tuning: Pianos don't actually use just or equal temperament, which is unnerving to me. Most piano tuners "stretch" the outer octaves so that they "sound" more in tune--upper octaves are tuned sharp, lower octaves are tuned flat. The piano I use at church has the top three or four keys tuned almost a half step sharp. It's a good thing I rarely use those keys, but the times I do I'll sometimes substitute a Major 7th for a perfect octave because it actually sounds better!

Your trombone has the F and D attachment? Cool! Who made it?

Personally, I'm a big fan of Leblanc clarinets and various, obscure, vintage keyboards, especially the good 80s boards like the Yamaha DX7 and Synclavier FM synthesizers. I have a cheaper, low-end Roland analog polysynth for the occasional fatness, but lean generally in favor of digital gear.

From what I've heard, it is true that intonation is easier on woodwinds.


It actually is true. There are situations where you use vibrato and situations where you do not, and that is determined by stylistic considerations. When you are not playing a soloistic part, you hold as rock-steady a pitch as possible (which is sometimes difficult on bass trombone). I learned from one of the top ten bass trombonists in the country, and when he doesn't want to play vibrato his sound is like a laser pointer, perfectly straight.


Not a big fan of dissonance at all. But resultant tones! They are the most beautiful sound in the world, especially because they trigger some interesting synesthesia for me. And you don't get resultant tones if you use equal temperament, you need to use just tuning.


Yeah, piano tuning is a mess, filled with all sorts of bizarre compromises. It's the nature of the beast. You can't make an instrument with completely fixed pitches over such a wide range sound good in all keys.


It's an old-school Holton from the 1960s, with some custom modifications. It originally came with F and E attachments, but I got a longer slide for the second valve to make it into a modern D attachment. I also made some improvements to the valve triggers; this particular Holton model was known for its so-called "magic thumb" trigger that is extremely painful to use in its unmodified state if you aren't double-jointed.

Technical problems aside, it has a very rich, powerful sound, and was well worth the expense of modernizing some of its hardware.

Piano tuning is an art and discipline unto itself. My ears have become so accustomed to equal temperament and electronic sounds that I don't really enjoy hearing anything else. Some things ya just gotta learn to let go. If I'm playing clarinet with an ensemble, I've learned to adjust pitch to the chord. You can "technically" tune a piano in equal temperament, but that severely limits you to maybe about 3 different keys. But on the other hand, I enjoy modal music as well as atonal music, so it makes no difference to me. I've had my Synclavier going on three days now, so maybe I'll start messing around with different tuning ratios. Not that I couldn't do that before, but I've just never had the motivation. One app I use, Logic, actually has a function that will adapt the intonation to any given note combination. Play your best piano sample through that and you'll have the perfect piano!




It's an old-school Holton from the 1960s, with some custom modifications. It originally came with F and E attachments, but I got a longer slide for the second valve to make it into a modern D attachment. I also made some improvements to the valve triggers; this particular Holton model was known for its so-called "magic thumb" trigger that is extremely painful to use in its unmodified state if you aren't double-jointed.
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