Why are death metal fans so narrow minded?

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It has had an influence on metal for sure, metal still fits under the umbrella term 'rock' thus much rock music that existed before metal influenced it...particularly progressive rock and even psychedelic rock. Black Sabbath started out playing more psychedelic type rock than metal before they took on a darker sound and themes and changed their name to Black Sabbath.

"Death", and "Megadeath"?

Are those two bands considered "death metal"?

Death are, they actually invented the subgenre. Megadeth (the omission of the second "a" is intentional) aren't, they're thrash metal.

Having done some research on the early history of heavy metal, I've come to the conclusion that punk is actually a more aggressive genre at its core; metal didn't really become aggressive until they started introducing punk elements. Of course, nowadays the most aggressive metal bands are more aggressive than the most aggressive punk bands, unless you count grindcore as a punk genre, in which case punk still wins out.

I think that can depend on what you want to call metal and punk. For people like me, punk starts around 73/74 and turns into "indie rock" about ten years later with bands like REM and the Smiths. It has aggression, but some of that is in the artwork and clothes, and is quite theatrical. "Evil burlesque," as Johnny Rotten called the Sex Pistols. Metal, like blues, is very much about performance and technique. That is where its aggression lies. Bands like Black Flag also have the aggression in the playing, but I think a lot of punk is fairly traditional pop dressed up in mock aggression or uses noise for texture and/or melody (think Bauhaus). Most of it is not macho, like metal.



A song played aggressively to show the insistence of his sexual and emotional longing, not because they're trying to be violent. Get rid of the distortion, slow it down a bit, and it's basically early Beatles. Think "Please Please Me."



This could be an early British Invasion single. You can also hear the Ziggy Stardust influence, and I'd even argue Ziggy Stardust is the link between Sgt. Pepper and Never Mind the Bollocks. A hard edge, but indebted to Paul McCartney in a way metal is not.



Also here, there is almost an industrial feel, but it's not macho or even aggressive. In fact the song is pretty playful.

Yes that is why more extreme metal didn't really start till thrash metal which was heavy metal with punk influence to add more speed and create a more aggressive style. I mean the most extreme it really got before that was Iron Maiden and Judas Priest. So it would make sense is more aggressive at its core, not to mention that was sort of the initial point I thought with punk was loud aggressive music....whereas with metal that's not really the case.

Punk would win that contest for sure but that doesn't matter to me all that much. I actually do rather enjoy punk as well as metal, but I'm certainly more into metal I don't measure how much I like something on how aggressive it is per say, also the lyrical content and themes of a lot of metal music interests me a bit more than most punk. I'd say Grindcore does sound more like punk as it doesn't seem to have much heavy metal at it's core its more flat out aggressive madness.

If something doesn't sound like metal to me, it doesn't mean I don't like it..I am just a stickler on details like when exactly did grindcore get it's metal influence and did it come more out of punk or metal, I'd think it's closer to a punk genre than metal genre if it came more out of punk.

^It was an interesting conclusion for me because for a long time I wondered what truly defined "metal", and listening to Black Sabbath's old stuff, I could tell that the "heaviness" was there, but that it was not necessarily "aggressive". I knew that thrash metal incorporated elements of hardcore punk with heavy metal, but it turns out NWOBHM before it was also influenced by punk somewhat, with Motorhead being probably the best example. As metal became more "punky", it became more aggressive, and people started associating this "aggressive" sound with metal, even though that aggression is really rooted in punk. Thus, nowadays we have a good number of bands that play loud aggressive rock music that doesn't necessarily follow metal conventions, which some people would still call "metal".

I agree with Mr. Bigmouth, metal got its aggression from punk, though metal has its distinctive heaviness. As for -core, I'd consider most of that more metal than punk as it just doesn't sound like punk to me, too heavy and too slow. Punk is supposed to faster, thrash sounds more punk than metalcore does as I define punk. Grindcore is basically death punk, deathcore is just another variation of death metal among many others. Really at that point it makes more since to separate between death and not death than metal versus punk, there has been so much crossover at that point the roots are indistinguishable.

The way I understood it deathcore was a form of grindcore with death metal influence. I'd figure genres that end in core rather than metal are more variations of hardcore punk, at least have more roots there than in metal or are tied in with that in some way. When it comes to metalcore specifically I have a hard time directly hearing the hardcore influence as well but it doesn't really sound like metal either, maybe its more a type of heavy rock than anything.

Also death doesn't say much, death metal and deathcore do sound different...it would be confusing not to distinguish at least for me.

Deathcore has nothing to do with grind core, it's a fusion of brutal death metal and metalcore (fusion of grindcore and death metal is deathgrind, which again I'd just consider another variant of death metal). The earliest roots of it are in certain brutal death metal bands like Suffocation. The metalcore part of deathcore didn't come until later. Yes, the core suffix does mean it has some connection to hardcore punk, even if indirectly, but that doesn't mean hardcore punk is the basis of the genre. Names are confusing. Again, "death" is part of the name as well.

I would NOT say deathcore sounds different than death metal as I consider it a subgenre of death metal. Yes, it sounds different from traditional death metal, but so do all the other variants like melodic, brutal, and technical death metal. The point is deathcore sounds more like other death metal bands than it does either punk rock or traditional heavy metal, and same goes for death metal in general. While some deathcore bands like Emmure have very little to do with traditional heavy metal, I'm pretty sure you'd recongize some other bands like All Shall Perish as being metal.

Metalcore is a bit more complicated, as it's actually a fairly broad genre. I'd say the name suggests it's a subgenre of BOTH metal and hardcore. However where it leans more towards depends on the band. The first metalcore bands were rooted in hardcore punk, but the melodic metalcore genre fuses metalcore with melodic death metal and is very different, much more metal oriented. Then coming from melodic metalcore bands came bands that moved away from metal more towards post-hardcore, and it's all very confusing. So I can understand why you might consider bands like Architects or Bring Me the Horizon to not be metal, but I don't see how something like Killswitch Engage or Trivium could be anything but metal despite some connections to hardcore. Then there are bands like Bullet For My Valentine which have absolutely nothing to do with the punk scene, but just base their sound around various metal and hard rock trends, including metalcore (they actually started out as a nu metal band).

^I agree, deathcore is pretty much a subgenre of death metal. It's also a subgenre of metalcore, which is just one of many genres to take elements from hardcore punk and heavy metal. But if thrash metal, grunge, crossover thrash, and metalcore are all defined by combining elements of hardcore punk and metal, how do you distinguish them? Like, I know they all sound different, but isn't there a better way to point out their distinctions?

Yeah, they all mix punk and metal, but the way they mix them is different, which is why they sound different. Metalcore is rooted in the specific metallic hardcore sound defined by short, chaotic songs with screamed vocals, metallic riffs, and breakdowns which Sweetleaf is correct in placing as punk rather than metal. However, since the original metallic hardcore metalcore has gone in many different directions, generally in a more metallic direction, and many metalcore bands are really just metal bands with no connection to the hardcore scene whatsoever. I'd consider almost all metalcore nowadays more metal than punk, the few more punk metalcore bands just get called hardcore nowadays.

Thrash metal is basically the inversion of metallic hardcore in terms of influence, being based in the structure of heavy metal, but with having a clear punk touch. Long, complex songs, but with hardcore influenced drumming and vocals (also a little bit in the bass and guitar as well). So it's a very fast and aggressive form of metal. Crossover thrash is just thrash metal with the punk further turned up to the point where I'd consider it more punk than metal. The real significant of crossover thrash is more cultural than musical, as while the metal and hardcore scenes frequently took influence from each other, they were basically separate scenes until crossover thrash, and many bands from other fusion genres started out as crossover-trash.

Grunge came out of sludge metal, which specially fused doom metal with hardcore punk and is clearly different from the much faster thrash metal. Main punk characteristic has is it's just much more raw and abrasive than doom. Grunge further adds alternative rock (more inline with punk) and hard rock (more inline with metal) influences into the mix, so it's hardly JUST a hardcore and metal fusion.

So in summary:

Hardcore punk: Short chaotic songs, fast/moderate tempo, raw aggression, not riff based, shouted vocals
Heavy metal: Long complex songs, moderate/slow tempo, clean heaviness, riff based, sung vocals

Metallic hardcore: Short chaotic songs, moderate tempo, raw aggression or clean heaviness, riff based, screamed vocals
Thrash metal: Long complex songs, fast tempo, clean heaviness, riff based, shouted vocals
Sludge metal: Short complex songs, moderate/slow tempo, raw aggression, riff based, shouted, screamed or sung vocals

Metalcore is like metallic hardcore, but it's now more metal, crossover-thrash is like thrash metal, but it's now more punk, and grunge is like sludge metal but more rock.

Then there is also crust punk, grindcore, black metal...

^Damn, you made my head spin.

I disagree with the assessment that metal get's it's aggression from it's technique and that it's macho. Yes, metal is much more performance oriented than punk, but the actual melodies and harmonies it typically plays are actually traditionally considered feminine by classical musicians, like punk it gets much of it's aggression from the distortion. In contrast to hard rock, I've always found metal to be generally less macho, which is reflected in the fact it moved away from it's blues roots. Metal is more concerned with fantasy rather than traditional masculine themes like sex and fast cars which are staples of hard rock. Granted, as most metal musicians are male it's typically male fantasy, so you got some hyper-masculine stuff like Manowar, but others like Iron Maiden or Black Sabbath are more Gothic, which is really romantic at it's heart and thus somewhat feminine. While musically gothic rock came out punk rock and early gothic rock fans criticized "heavy metal" (really more hard rock) for being too macho, the roots of their aesthetics came from heavy metal. Mainly alternative rock is just less macho than metal is because much of it was specifically made in rebellion to macho trends or rock music, while metal didn't really care about gender either way and carried many older rock trends while also doing other things. Really, I'd consider alternative rock a spin off a punk rock rather than it's natural evolution, which I'd consider to be hardcore punk, of which Black Flag is just the best known band as despite being extremely influential it's a very underground genre, the most aggressive strains of metal are all in debut to hardcore punk. Overtime both hardcore punk and heavy metal got more aggressive, but heavy metal became less macho overtime as it separated more from hard rock while still getting more popular rather than just having a mostly male underground fan-base, while with the exceptions of riot grrl and queercore scenes, and the offshoot genre of emo, hardcore has gotten much more macho and exclusionary.

Anyway, with the song samples you gave, I wouldn't consider Talking Heads at that point in time to be punk rock, and I find the Sex Pistols song to be significantly more aggressive than any heavy metal at the time aside from Judas Priest's Dissident Aggressor, which I'd consider to have more feminine vocal style, and on the same album they covered freaking Joan Baez:

And that's the song that put them on the map. They've always had clear melodic parts in their original metal songs:


Going to metal's roots, I really don't get what's so aggressive and macho about this:

A funky and dark, but asexual love song with some pretty parts.
Or this:

Which is just really dark, not really aggressive at all. The song the Wizard has a bit more of a harder edge, but it's more blues rock, and some blues rock has always had a hard edge.

Yeah I suppose how much metalcore leans towards metal or hardcore would depend on the band. I would definitely distingish Killswitch Engage or Trivium as metalcore rather than metal for the most part though I could see some specfic songs sounding more like metal. I can't say they lean more towards hardcore than metal if that makes sense. It's like a fusion that sounds like something different than either metal or hardcore a lot of times.

And again, I don't see any reason to distinguish metalcore from metal as I consider it a subgenre of metal, might as well say death metal isn't metal. Yeah, some metalcore has fairly little to do with metal, but that's because genres are fuzzy.