Got Goth?

Post Reply New Topic

That's because before 1990 Goth was virtually unknown, then that Marilyn Manson guy became famous and those shootings happened and everybody in America was talking about it, but before them Goths had been around since the late 70s. Anyway Goth never stopped being what it was to Goths, until the media started repoting on ''Goths'' who interestingly had nothing to do with Goths at all, and "Goth" music got into to Goth Clubs that before that had nothing to do with it either (EBM, Industrial, ect), just so that people could increase attendence.



Labels account for the differences, if they didn't they wouldn't have a use, the fact that one band has a Funk influence and the other has a Blues influence doesn't really matter (Obvious reference to Josef K, and Nick Cave and the Bad Seeds). Tell that to Veresae , I like to research music as far back as Mozart, and as new as Neofolk, and yes I have looked into the Goth Genre, I wouldn't be saying any of this if I hadn't, and wasn't confident of what I was saying, just buy one of Mick Mercer's books, he's a famous Underground Scene Historian, well loved by Goths everywhere.

Deus,

I'm glad that you do research older music all the way back to classical, and I never doubted that you know a considerable amount about Goth music, certainly much more than I do. But basically this argument in the thread boils down to that of a purist vs. a non-purist (and I am neither, as I don't know enough about Goth anything to be on any side of it hah)

It kind of reminds me of how my dance instructor is whenever he teaches Lindy Hop. He always tells the students in his classes that "there's no such thing as East Coast Swing," that it and American forms of Latin ballroom dance are mere creations from Arthur Murray, and that ECS and ballroom-style Swing are bastardizations of the real Savoy-style Swing. While I don't question that my dance instructor is telling the truth, telling his students who had taken ballroom-style ECS that everything they knew so far about Swing was horribly wrong is only going to result in angry students and an empty dance floor. As an instructor maybe he has a right to say such things, but the manner by which he says it is not necessary.

The first thing that came into my mind when I saw Veresae's comment about Evanescence and Marilyn Manson being the definitive examples of the Gothic style was that both groups are sort of new. Goth existed pre-1990 for sure (I remember Goth groups in intermediate school, 1989-1991), so there must be some other groups that have been known longer as being quintessential Goth. This is regardless of whether you or I or anybody else classifies Evanescence and Marilyn Manson as Goth or something else. Veresae had not heard of Bauhaus before this thread started; well now he knows! And that's it, no need to go further and whack him upside the head and tell him that all of his own observations are dreadfully wrong. This isn't science, this is art! Art is inherently very subjective.

The point about the labels: it actually does matter if one band has a funk influence and another has Blues influence, primarily due to the quantity of the influence. At what point would one consider a Goth band with a heavy funk influence as being "more funk" than Goth? That's the part that is quite subjective and open to a variety of interpretations.

My question to everybody would be: what makes Goth music Goth? What is it about Bauhaus, Sisters of Mercy, etc., the bands, the music, that makes and defines Goth music? What distinguishes this genre of music from all other genres? So far the meat of the discussion in this thread has been on whether X or Y band is Goth or Industrial or Punk or whatever, but I honestly haven't seen so much about what it actually means to be Goth. And I as a person who wants to learn more about it, am more interested in the answer to that question.

Sorry but obviously you're mistaken about what this is based around, this isn't about purist ideadoloy at all, and I'm offended that you think that, but the bands that Veresae and such have listed bear virtually no resemblance to Gothic Rock, Post-punk, Deathrock or Darkwave (I'm planing on reducing it to those because of the confusion), the bands that are listed are either Metal or Industrial (To simplify it) not anywhere near Goth, this isn't what I was looking for, I don't think that that bands have been listed are crap, they simply have no place in this thread.

Again this isn't about slight differences, these are huge differences that apparently become more obvious when you look into a genres history and get to know it, but it was quite insulting when alot of the people came in here and challenged my knowledge with Mainstream "knowledge" and basically acted as if I didn't know what I was talking about, I distinctly remember, Deutha saying that I shouldn't use one source of infomation only (Wikipedia) and Veresae doing the same (Australian Goth Scene), as if they knew my sources, what the hell was that all about?

That struck me too, how can a band come about several decades after a label has been developed and suddenly be the defining band? The defining band is Bauhaus by the way.
Of course, but as I said I felt like alot of people thought that I didn't know what I was talking about then they ask me who Bauhaus is?

the Bad Seeds and Josef K are both considered Post-punk bands yet they have wildly different influences (Blues and Funk respectively) which is what I was getting at, they don't sound the same at all yet they are both considered the same style, I considered them both the same style, so the point is was trying to make is that slight differences don't matter to me.

Wikipedia gives a list of what makes up a Gothic Rock band right down to the common elements (Eg lots of Minor Chords), there is usually a Drum Machine, which stems from The Sisters of Mercy who inovated the Goth genre and created alot of clones in the process, before that it was all "Tribal Drums" to the tune of Siouxsie and the Banshees and Sex Gang Children, eventually Gothic Rock bands started taking on more electronic elements, so you get bands like The Crüxshadows, an example of Darkwave, and The Clan of Xymox, another example of Darkwave.

Also to add some examples of the other genres you mentioned, Sex Pistols for Punk, Suicide for Electropunk, for Industrial since it's such a broad genre, Throbbing Gristle (Old Industrial), Chemlab (Coldwave), Covenant (Swedish band not Norwegian, old stuff for EBM sound), VNV Nation (Matter + Form, FuturePerfect for Futurepop), :wumpscut: Electro-industrial, Marilyn Manson for Industrial Rock, Ministry for Industrial Metal, Psyclon Nine for Terror EBM, Brighter Death Now for Death Industrial.

For the rest of the Industrial and Punk genres I suggest you check out Wikipedia and ask some veterans of the respective music scenes.

ALSO here is some Webpages I just found detailing some of the Goth and Industrial scenes...

http://blogs.setonhill.edu/KateCielinski/008797.html

http://project.cyberpunk.ru/idb/mutated ... _punk.html (This one seems to confuse Goth Fashion with Industrial Fashion though ).

True, they are new, but when I said definitive, I meant to the modern gothic style they're two of the most poingant, influential, and popular bands. A lot of today's goth rock music tries to emulate one of those two groups. Bauhaus may have been the first, but they have less of an influence to the modern style.



Naturally, but you have to admit that genres and labels evolve and transform over time. That's a fact. Furthermore, I do believe that goth is a style. One doesn't have to dress like a goth to have the soul of a goth, and vice versa, but usually the two go hand in hand. A lot of the fake goths have become emos by now.



Ahem:



Did I ever say that my idea of gothic was the only version of gothic and your gothic music wasn't actually gothic? No. Hence, inacurrate analogy. I don't deny the importance of these bands in the history of gothic music. Is admiting that these bands are gothic REALLY that hard to believe for you? You act like the old style is the ONLY style, and anyone who disagrees is a media whore. BS!



True, the music I think of as "gothic" only exists from late 90's and up, but just because it's more recent, it doesn't mean it's more mainstream--nobody at my school likes it, that's for sure. Furthermore, modern music isn't any less important than the older music that inspired it. One evolution must lead to another, after all. It just depends which you prefer. I never said that you have to like the new gothic music, just that you have to admit that it is the modern idea of gothic music.



-Snorts- Evanescence isn't Industrial at all, and the Industrial elements in Marilyn Manson and Orgy are minimal--certainly not pure Industrial a la Front Line Assembly. Note the presence of the guitar, which is critical to something being considered rock. I've seen bands listed in this thread that are way more Industrial-sounding than Manson, and way less rock sounding. Don't some of the bands you listed have only synthetic instruments? (I could be wrong, but at first glance it sounded like it.) I do believe that there is ROCK in gothic rock, and rock requires some elements that aren't synthetic, such as--again--a guitar! And Emilie Autumn (at least in her current Ophiliac album) is self-proclaimed "Victoriandustrial," yes, but that's basically a "gimmick" label she uses for it. She has a few synthetic elements, but just as many classical ones, and she sounds nothing like most Industrial bands. I have to wonder how much of the music I listed you've actually HEARD. As you said yourself, you didn't like any of it except Rammestein, the most Industrial of all of them!



I assume that this is a typo, and that it's supposed to be "shouldn't"? As I said, I base my opinion on what's gothic not by the media, but by fellow goths. For example, do you have any idea how many goth profiles I've seen that list bands like that as their favorites? (I do a lot of MySpace browsing.) I haven't heard of your gothic bands before now, except The Cure, Joy Division, and Sisters of Mercy. Are you so ready to discount the opinions of so many goths? Now, just to put this out there: I do definately understand that just because something is liked by goths, it doesn't mean it's gothic--certainly not. (Look at Linkin Park--a lot of goths love 'em, and they have pain-ridden lyrics, but they're definately not gothic.)

Oh, and by the way I find it hard to trust the opinion of what's gothic by a guy who doesn't even consider Tim Burton movies gothic. Burton is one of the hugest, most cliche, most stereotypical gothic icons! This thread is making me imagine people saying that the only gothic style ever to be used in film was the Addams Family and Elvira and the super old black and white Dracula film with the armadillo in the castle, and that sort of thing. I guess The Nightmare Before Christmas, currently among the most widely treasured if not the most widely treasured gothic film, is too modern to be considered gothic too?



Oh, but he's right--this totally is purist. You're stuck on the traditional view of what is gothic, and you can't admit that there's a new style of goth that has by and large replaced the old, and regardless of how different it is it evolved from it. Again, it's a gross oversimplification to call all those bands just metal or industrial, especially in the case of Evanescence. Goth metal I consider something like Nightwish or Lacuna Coil. Evanescence sounds nothing like them. Manson isn't nearly hard enough to be metal, and makes a big deal about being a "rockstar" in his lyrics. And again, I NEVER said that we had to talk about those bands in this thread--just that THEY ARE GOTHIC. In my first post I was surprised, because I hadn't heard of these bands, and after listening to them I didn't see how they fit with the modern viewpoint of what was gothic at all. Now I know that this is what goth used to be, and personally, I'm glad that much of it's not like that anymore. Thanks for educating me, man. Seriously.



Of course they're huge differences--music nowadays doesn't always sound like a super low quality recording like it did in the 80's. IT'S CALLED EVOLUTION! Again, I'm not denying history. These are changes, indeed. But look--this is the modern view of modern goth. You can stay closed minded and stick to your old style and say it is the ONLY TRUE GOTH all you want, I honestly don't care anymore. I mean, what's the point? Not like you give a s**t. So I'm done with this thread. Have fun bickering.

Not one of my fave genres but I like a few goth rock bands:
The Bolshoi (My personal favorite)
Specimen
Fields Of The Nephilim (About the only band with "death vocals" I like)

"I have to wonder how much of the music I listed you've actually HEARD. As you said yourself, you didn't like any of it except Rammestein, the most Industrial of all of them!"

I've heard all the of the music you've listed and more from that genre, so you can stop being childish. I've listened to those bands longer than I've listened to Gothic Rock, Darkwave, Post-punk, ect, I've done the research (Pages of it) on just about all of the genres mentioned so far, so I don't know what kind of source you think you have but it's wrong.

Last edited by Deus_ex_machina on 15 Dec 2006, 11:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

"True, they are new, but when I said definitive, I meant to the modern gothic style they're two of the most poingant, influential, and popular bands. A lot of today's goth rock music tries to emulate one of those two groups. Bauhaus may have been the first, but they have less of an influence to the modern style."

And yet there are tons of Gothic Rock bands around (That only came about recently) that sound more like Bauhaus and nothing like M M, ZOMGOTH BATMAN I THINK WE HAVE SOMETHING HERE, Corpus Delicti comes to mind, they're from France, surely you know about them considering you're such a big expert and have talked to all the "Goths", ha, sorry about being condesending but you've been doing it for a while now, old Gothic Rock bands have very little if any of a link to the bands you call Gothic.

"Naturally, but you have to admit that genres and labels evolve and transform over time. That's a fact. Furthermore, I do believe that goth is a style. One doesn't have to dress like a goth to have the soul of a goth, and vice versa, but usually the two go hand in hand. A lot of the fake goths have become emos by now."

I have, I admited that you were onto something with the Darkwave thing, bands like The Crüxshadows are an evolution of the Gothic Rock style, as can be seen in what Clan of Xymox/Xymox has done, as to the rest of it, you're wrong, fake Goths are everywhere, and it seems like you've been talking to them.

"Ahem:

"

What I'm saying is that she links old Punk with new "Punk", and that's what you're doing too, unfortunetly neither ever cites any credible sources, just a bunch of people they've talked to, who mostly likely are fed by the media, try doing what I've been doing for, oh say, the past few pages?

"Did I ever say that my idea of gothic was the only version of gothic and your gothic music wasn't actually gothic? No. Hence, inacurrate analogy. I don't deny the importance of these bands in the history of gothic music. Is admiting that these bands are gothic REALLY that hard to believe for you? You act like the old style is the ONLY style, and anyone who disagrees is a media whore. BS!"

Refer to the last paragraph and stop assuming, it's all you've done throughout this whole debate/argument.

"True, the music I think of as "gothic" only exists from late 90's and up, but just because it's more recent, it doesn't mean it's more mainstream--nobody at my school likes it, that's for sure. Furthermore, modern music isn't any less important than the older music that inspired it. One evolution must lead to another, after all. It just depends which you prefer. I never said that you have to like the new gothic music, just that you have to admit that it is the modern idea of gothic music."

Maybe at your school, but at my school the major "Gothic" bands are/were (I don't go to High School anymore), My Chemical Romance, Murderdolls, Cradle of Filth, and lo and behold, Marilyn Manson, none of the people who liked these bands had ever heard of Bauhaus, now lets look at what they have in common, their image, and that's about it, if you listen to what some kid off the street tells you about Goth you might as well be listening to what a Nazi says about the Halocaust.

"-Snorts- Evanescence isn't Industrial at all, and the Industrial elements in Marilyn Manson and Orgy are minimal--certainly not pure Industrial a la Front Line Assembly. Note the presence of the guitar, which is critical to something being considered rock. I've seen bands listed in this thread that are way more Industrial-sounding than Manson, and way less rock sounding. Don't some of the bands you listed have only synthetic instruments? (I could be wrong, but at first glance it sounded like it.) I do believe that there is ROCK in gothic rock, and rock requires some elements that aren't synthetic, such as--again--a guitar! And Emilie Autumn (at least in her current Ophiliac album) is self-proclaimed "Victoriandustrial," yes, but that's basically a "gimmick" label she uses for it. She has a few synthetic elements, but just as many classical ones, and she sounds nothing like most Industrial bands. I have to wonder how much of the music I listed you've actually HEARD. As you said yourself, you didn't like any of it except Rammestein, the most Industrial of all of them!"

Since when did I say Evanescence was Industrial? STOP READING INTO THINGS!! Bloody hell, now go listen to KMFDM and realise where Marilyn Manson's major influences comes from (London After Midnight is another good one), and if you check out "Deathstars" (Band), you'll find out where his image came from, he just whored his band from a bunch of other bands that were already around and doing what he got famous for, then put a pop slant on it.

"I assume that this is a typo, and that it's supposed to be "shouldn't"? As I said, I base my opinion on what's gothic not by the media, but by fellow goths. For example, do you have any idea how many goth profiles I've seen that list bands like that as their favorites? (I do a lot of MySpace browsing.) I haven't heard of your gothic bands before now, except The Cure, Joy Division, and Sisters of Mercy. Are you so ready to discount the opinions of so many goths? Now, just to put this out there: I do definately understand that just because something is liked by goths, it doesn't mean it's gothic--certainly not. (Look at Linkin Park--a lot of goths love 'em, and they have pain-ridden lyrics, but they're definately not gothic.)

Oh, and by the way I find it hard to trust the opinion of what's gothic by a guy who doesn't even consider Tim Burton movies gothic. Burton is one of the hugest, most cliche, most stereotypical gothic icons! This thread is making me imagine people saying that the only gothic style ever to be used in film was the Addams Family and Elvira and the super old black and white Dracula film with the armadillo in the castle, and that sort of thing. I guess The Nightmare Before Christmas, currently among the most widely treasured if not the most widely treasured gothic film, is too modern to be considered gothic too?"

It was a typo. And as I said, stop listening to what some kid says and cite some credible sources, you don't even have any proof that they're actual Goths and not just really confused kids/adults.

Again, you're going by the popular misconception that what is "Gothic" is "Goth", Gothic is an adjective, which is the way I describe his movies, but he I would hesitate to call say his movies are Goth, what the hell would be the criteria?

"Oh, but he's right--this totally is purist. You're stuck on the traditional view of what is gothic, and you can't admit that there's a new style of goth that has by and large replaced the old, and regardless of how different it is it evolved from it. Again, it's a gross oversimplification to call all those bands just metal or industrial, especially in the case of Evanescence. Goth metal I consider something like Nightwish or Lacuna Coil. Evanescence sounds nothing like them. Manson isn't nearly hard enough to be metal, and makes a big deal about being a "rockstar" in his lyrics. And again, I NEVER said that we had to talk about those bands in this thread--just that THEY ARE GOTHIC. In my first post I was surprised, because I hadn't heard of these bands, and after listening to them I didn't see how they fit with the modern viewpoint of what was gothic at all. Now I know that this is what goth used to be, and personally, I'm glad that much of it's not like that anymore. Thanks for educating me, man. Seriously."

Either that or you're too busy misinterpreting everything I say that none of it makes sense, or maybe you haven't done any research at all. Nightwish? Lacuna Coil? You really don't know what you're talking about do you? Please do some research on, Goth Metal, Gothic Doom, Gothic Rock, Symphonic Metal, Gothic Metal, Industrial Rock, and Industrial, you can start in Wikipedia and go from there, until you've got some sources to cite and have researched it at all there wont be any point in continuing this discussion.

"Of course they're huge differences--music nowadays doesn't always sound like a super low quality recording like it did in the 80's. IT'S CALLED EVOLUTION! Again, I'm not denying history. These are changes, indeed. But look--this is the modern view of modern goth. You can stay closed minded and stick to your old style and say it is the ONLY TRUE GOTH all you want, I honestly don't care anymore. I mean, what's the point? Not like you give a s**t. So I'm done with this thread. Have fun bickering."

As I've already said Gothic Rock is evolving into Darkwave, get your facts straight.

Heh, thanks for that, and thanks for reminding me of The Bolshoi.

Okay, I know I said I was done here, but you're calling my entire subculture fake, and I'm not going to take that.

Inconsistancy alert! Below you finally admit that new gothic rock bands that sound like the older ones are now called Darkwave. While I agree that it seems as though modern Gothic Rock has nothing to do with older Gothic Rock, it is still what has adopted the title. Some modern Darkwave can still be called Gothic Rock, but sounds nothing like it. I'll admit I was wrong in my assumption that modern Gothic Rock a la MM and Evanescence came from old Gothic Rock, but that genre is still not just Industrial or Metal--it's very different in tone, instrumental choices, vocal styles, and subject matter. I realize that it's also very different from old Gothic Rock, but there is no other title for this somewhat-new genre. I say somewhat new because it's still a lot older than Emo...which reminds me. What this basically sounds like is that people are confusing old goth and new goth, and the new goths just stole the label, and the emos kind of did the same thing except they gave themselves a new name. I'd be pissed if emos called themselves goths, so I can understand where you're coming from.



Oh, you admitted this before? I was under the impression you denied the similarities between old gothic rock and darkwave:



See what I mean? Thanks for finally admitting it, but don't say you did before before when this is the first time.



So EVERYBODY that follows the newer gothic style is "fake"? While I admit there's a lot of fake goths, there are fakes and posers in any given subculture.

See...here's the thing. You're thinking that these people are brainwashed by the media, and thus are ignorant fakes, but the thing is, when they become a majority subculture on their own, with its own evolutions and its own subcultures WITHIN the subculture (Victorian Goths, Industrial Goths, Vampire-wannabe Goths, etc.--though they're never mutually exclusive), then it's its own style. Just because it doesn't fit with the old idea of what was gothic doesn't mean it's fake. It's just a newer culture using an older name, fusing some of the sensibilities with newer stuff like decent sound quality in the music, influences from other genres, crappy poetry in blogs, Tim Burton movies (still don't know how you cannot consider them gothic), BDSM (eww), excessive conformity (I'll certainly admit that), obsession with pain, etc. There's "gothic" clothing these days, "gothic" movies (such as "Underworld"), "gothic" games ("Planescape: Torment," "BloodRayne," and "American McGee's Alice" come to mind), "gothic" books (Anne Rice's Vampire Chronicles, Dracula, Tithe: A Modern Fairy Tale), "gothic" art (Linda Bergkvist AKA Enayla is one of the better known "gothic" artists), etc....and they all feature similar patterns, themes, moods, and overall stylings. Now quite a bit of this is too anti-mainstream for the mainstream media to cover any of it at all, yet it still retains the label of "gothic." Basically what I'm saying is...this is what gothic is right now. It may not be anything like what gothic was, but that doesn't mean it's completely fake. Saying so is bigotted and disrespectful to all involved in this subculture--and that's a lot of people, and some of those are genuine. Maybe not traditional, but certainly genuine.




Sorry, it sounded like you were saying I was calling new gothic the only gothic and that your gothic simply wasn't gothic, which isn't what I was saying at all. Still isn't.

By the way, I dunno about you, but my media doesn't report s**t about anything goth-related unless some supposedly gothic kids went on a shooting spree or something and they're trying to criticize the whole subculture because of a couple of dumbasses.



First of all, I couldn't refer to the last paragraph then because you hadn't posted it. Second of all, if you want me to understand what you're saying, then articulate it better. Third of all, I'm sorry I misunderstood, but you've been making false asumptions about what I've been saying this whole time too--don't be such a hypocrite.



Actually, not a lot of people are gothic at my school, and for those that are I haven't had the oppertunity to talk to many of them. What moron would confuse My Chemical Romance, obviously an EMO band, with gothic? (I know it may sound like I'm doing the same thing, but remember, Emo's gave themselves a new name--new goths didn't.) Cradle of Filth is black metal, liked by many goths (at least ones with no exposure to less commertial black metal) but certainly not gothic. See? I'm not completely ignorant about this stuff--I just am part of a different subculture than you that happens to carry the same title.

By the way, here's one example of you making assumptions. I don't get my information about what's gothic from random people on the streets. As I said, I get it from people who consider themselves gothic, or "fake goths" as you arrogantly call them. This would be akin to a Hollocost survivor telling me the story, not a Nazi.




You said all the bands I was talking about were either Industrial or Metal, not Gothic Rock, here:



And here:




Had you said "Except Evanescence," I might have been less confused. By the way, Wikipedia lists them as Pop/Alternative/Rock one one page, and Gothic Metal on another (see below). Personally, I don't understand how they can be considered either--they don't have 3-5 minute long guitar solos like a lot of Metal bands do (though "Weight of the World" from "The Open Door" does sound kinda metal-y), nor is their tone ANYTHING as light as pop/alternative.



I've heard KDFDM and London After Midnight, they sound NOTHING like MM. The tone, mood, subject matter, and instrumental choices are completely different. He does look like the people from Deathstars, but I don't judge music by the way the band members look. He might have been influenced by a lot of different bands, but he definately put his own spin on it, and since when is blending together a lot of different elements to create something great all that bad of a thing? I mean, "The Matrix" completely ripped off Dark City, John Woo movies, etc. but it's still a great movie.




What source is there beyond people? "Gothic" as an adjective isn't something you can put into a textbook. There are certain trends, but in the end, people are people. You can't call people confused or fake just because they don't fit into an outdated textbook definition of what a "Goth" is, but still claim to be because they have elements that they have associated with goths. Typos, however, can be entirely forgiven. ^_~



You misunderstood, but thanks for admitting that his movies ARE gothic. What I meant was, more goths (er...modern goths, or new goths, or fake goths, whatever you wanna call 'em) love that movie than any other gothic movie. It's got a ridiculously huge fanbase. Now, you can go ahead and not believe me, and I'd understand--again, this isn't something that can really be counted. But I haven't met a single goth that disliked "Nightmare Before Christmas" or didn't consider it gothic. His other movies, such as "Sleepy Hollow" and "Edward Scissorhands," also have intense goth-driven fanbases. So I wasn't calling his movies Goth, so much as calling them Goth ICONS:



When did I call his movies Goth? I called them Gothic. After misinterpreting my words and making assumptions about what I'm saying you flat out put words in my mouth. What a nice way to win a debate!



First sentence: look who's talking. After that: I know Nightwish is TECHNICALLY classified as "Symphonic Power Metal," but loads of people still consider it gothic. It certainly has a lot of gothic elements--excuse me, MODERN gothic elements. And you can actually look at your precious Wikipedia's list of Gothic Metal--Lacuna Coil is on it. (And no, I didn't edit it. I don't have a login there.) "Goth Metal" and "Gothic Metal" are both given the same page, as well. I used those two bands as examples because they're both widely known. I know other bands are better examples, but NW and LC are the better known ones, the ones I've heard most commonly regarded as Gothic Metal. And I'm inclined to listen to the many fans of those bands rather than one individual.



You said that in this post, not before--I said it before and you acted like you disagreed. Get your facts straight, and your timeline too!

"Okay, I know I said I was done here, but you're calling my entire subculture fake, and I'm not going to take that."

"Your" Subculture? What the hell? The fact is most of the kinds of people you know think they're Goths, so yes they are fakes, and they are confused, this says nothing about the "Goths" that fit the profile you give but know the history.

"Inconsistancy alert! Below you finally admit that new gothic rock bands that sound like the older ones are now called Darkwave. While I agree that it seems as though modern Gothic Rock has nothing to do with older Gothic Rock, it is still what has adopted the title. Some modern Darkwave can still be called Gothic Rock, but sounds nothing like it. I'll admit I was wrong in my assumption that modern Gothic Rock a la MM and Evanescence came from old Gothic Rock, but that genre is still not just Industrial or Metal--it's very different in tone, instrumental choices, vocal styles, and subject matter. I realize that it's also very different from old Gothic Rock, but there is no other title for this somewhat-new genre. I say somewhat new because it's still a lot older than Emo...which reminds me. What this basically sounds like is that people are confusing old goth and new goth, and the new goths just stole the label, and the emos kind of did the same thing except they gave themselves a new name. I'd be pissed if emos called themselves goths, so I can understand where you're coming from."

I never said that Darkwave sounds nothing like Gothic Rock, as long as we're talking about the same thing, I had already heard that Gothic Rock is going more Electronic, what you said about Darkwave fit with what I already knew.

No it hasn't adopted the title at all, alot of people call Marilyn Manson Industrial Rock, hell I saw a prep calling his music that on a Goth Forum and she was new! Then she went on to make a fool of herself by not knowing it is a band *and* a person.

"Oh, you admitted this before? I was under the impression you denied the similarities between old gothic rock and darkwave:"

That just says that it's a useless term, not that Darkwave and Gothic Rock have no connection.


"See what I mean? Thanks for finally admitting it, but don't say you did before before when this is the first time."

I was under the impretion that you were saying that "old" Gothic Rock had evolved into bands like M M, which is so far from the truth it made me spew.

"So EVERYBODY that follows the newer gothic style is "fake"? While I admit there's a lot of fake goths, there are fakes and posers in any given subculture.

See...here's the thing. You're thinking that these people are brainwashed by the media, and thus are ignorant fakes, but the thing is, when they become a majority subculture on their own, with its own evolutions and its own subcultures WITHIN the subculture (Victorian Goths, Industrial Goths, Vampire-wannabe Goths, etc.--though they're never mutually exclusive), then it's its own style. Just because it doesn't fit with the old idea of what was gothic doesn't mean it's fake. It's just a newer culture using an older name, fusing some of the sensibilities with newer stuff like decent sound quality in the music, influences from other genres, crappy poetry in blogs, Tim Burton movies (still don't know how you cannot consider them gothic), BDSM (eww), excessive conformity (I'll certainly admit that), obsession with pain, etc. There's "gothic" clothing these days, "gothic" movies (such as "Underworld"), "gothic" games ("Planescape: Torment," "BloodRayne," and "American McGee's Alice" come to mind), "gothic" books (Anne Rice's Vampire Chronicles, Dracula, Tithe: A Modern Fairy Tale), "gothic" art (Linda Bergkvist AKA Enayla is one of the better known "gothic" artists), etc....and they all feature similar patterns, themes, moods, and overall stylings. Now quite a bit of this is too anti-mainstream for the mainstream media to cover any of it at all, yet it still retains the label of "gothic." Basically what I'm saying is...this is what gothic is right now. It may not be anything like what gothic was, but that doesn't mean it's completely fake. Saying so is bigotted and disrespectful to all involved in this subculture--and that's a lot of people, and some of those are genuine. Maybe not traditional, but certainly genuine."

Well they're certainly not a part of the Goth Culture, just because you like a bunch of Goth bands doesn't mean you participate in the Culture and are therefore a Goth, and seeing as how widespread the Goth Culture is it should be incredibly easy for them to do so.

Again you're getting your definitions mixed up, alot of that stuff can be said to be Gothic, but that doesn't mean any of it has any relation to Goth Culture, and since I can't possibly know if it has any relation I have to assume it isn't.

"Sorry, it sounded like you were saying I was calling new gothic the only gothic and that your gothic simply wasn't gothic, which isn't what I was saying at all. Still isn't.

By the way, I dunno about you, but my media doesn't report s**t about anything goth-related unless some supposedly gothic kids went on a shooting spree or something and they're trying to criticize the whole subculture because of a couple of dumbasses."

Ok.

Well I never hear anything in the news about Goth at all, it's just because people see the look and because it resembles what they see in someone they know already they link the two (Eg, they see Marilyn Manson on TV, and happens to resemble a Goth some person knows, and bam suddenly he's Goth, what's worse is when a Goth happens to like said band which only reinforces that idea, or when someone is new to Goth Culture and doesn't know the difference and isn't informed), all of the stuff I used in my example is common.

"First of all, I couldn't refer to the last paragraph then because you hadn't posted it. Second of all, if you want me to understand what you're saying, then articulate it better. Third of all, I'm sorry I misunderstood, but you've been making false asumptions about what I've been saying this whole time too--don't be such a hypocrite."

I meant the previous one. Articulate better? What kind of half arsed advice is that? You should know very well that Aspies can have trouble communicating. Since when?


"Actually, not a lot of people are gothic at my school, and for those that are I haven't had the oppertunity to talk to many of them. What moron would confuse My Chemical Romance, obviously an EMO band, with gothic? (I know it may sound like I'm doing the same thing, but remember, Emo's gave themselves a new name--new goths didn't.) Cradle of Filth is black metal, liked by many goths (at least ones with no exposure to less commertial black metal) but certainly not gothic. See? I'm not completely ignorant about this stuff--I just am part of a different subculture than you that happens to carry the same title.

By the way, here's one example of you making assumptions. I don't get my information about what's gothic from random people on the streets. As I said, I get it from people who consider themselves gothic, or "fake goths" as you arrogantly call them. This would be akin to a Hollocost survivor telling me the story, not a Nazi."

Well then there's part of your problem. People confuse them because they look sightly similar, just like Cradle of Filth would look slightly like the average Goth. And no they aren't liked by alot of Goths, maybe by alot of the people you know but not Goths, most Goths hate that band.

I realise they consider themselves Gothic and maybe they are but they aren't Goths, you're getting your infomation from the wrong source, and even if you could be sure they were Goths it would still be the wrong way to go about Researching something.

"You said all the bands I was talking about were either Industrial or Metal, not Gothic Rock, here: "

Yes and I consider them Metal, which is an oversimplification but it's true.

"Had you said "Except Evanescence," I might have been less confused. By the way, Wikipedia lists them as Pop/Alternative/Rock one one page, and Gothic Metal on another (see below). Personally, I don't understand how they can be considered either--they don't have 3-5 minute long guitar solos like a lot of Metal bands do (though "Weight of the World" from "The Open Door" does sound kinda metal-y), nor is their tone ANYTHING as light as pop/alternative."

A band doesn't have to fit every single requirement, anyway I consider them to have a big Nu Metal influence which isn't anything like Metal but there you go.

I've heard KDFDM and London After Midnight, they sound NOTHING like MM. The tone, mood, subject matter, and instrumental choices are completely different. He does look like the people from Deathstars, but I don't judge music by the way the band members look. He might have been influenced by a lot of different bands, but he definately put his own spin on it, and since when is blending together a lot of different elements to create something great all that bad of a thing? I mean, "The Matrix" completely ripped off Dark City, John Woo movies, etc. but it's still a great movie.

Well there you go, I think they do, but that isn't to say they influenced his music solely, alright? I aknowledge his music has alot of different influences.

What source is there beyond people? "Gothic" as an adjective isn't something you can put into a textbook. There are certain trends, but in the end, people are people. You can't call people confused or fake just because they don't fit into an outdated textbook definition of what a "Goth" is, but still claim to be because they have elements that they have associated with goths. Typos, however, can be entirely forgiven. ^_~

Books? You know written by people that are highly regarded in the particular field? Like the guy who I have mentioned already, Mick Mercer.
I can call someone confused if they think they are something they are not, and although both have a taste for the Gothic side of things one has a taste for Goth things and the other does not, you'd know what I was talking about if they were all brought to a Goth Convention.

"You misunderstood, but thanks for admitting that his movies ARE gothic. What I meant was, more goths (er...modern goths, or new goths, or fake goths, whatever you wanna call 'em) love that movie than any other gothic movie. It's got a ridiculously huge fanbase. Now, you can go ahead and not believe me, and I'd understand--again, this isn't something that can really be counted. But I haven't met a single goth that disliked "Nightmare Before Christmas" or didn't consider it gothic. His other movies, such as "Sleepy Hollow" and "Edward Scissorhands," also have intense goth-driven fanbases. So I wasn't calling his movies Goth, so much as calling them Goth ICONS:"

Well that's the problem, it can't really be verified, that's why, for the purpose of this thread I am considering his movies not Goth.

"When did I call his movies Goth? I called them Gothic. After misinterpreting my words and making assumptions about what I'm saying you flat out put words in my mouth. What a nice way to win a debate!"

And what the hell am I supposed to know what is meant by "Gothic Icons"?

"First sentence: look who's talking. After that: I know Nightwish is TECHNICALLY classified as "Symphonic Power Metal," but loads of people still consider it gothic. It certainly has a lot of gothic elements--excuse me, MODERN gothic elements. And you can actually look at your precious Wikipedia's list of Gothic Metal--Lacuna Coil is on it. (And no, I didn't edit it. I don't have a login there.) "Goth Metal" and "Gothic Metal" are both given the same page, as well. I used those two bands as examples because they're both widely known. I know other bands are better examples, but NW and LC are the better known ones, the ones I've heard most commonly regarded as Gothic Metal. And I'm inclined to listen to the many fans of those bands rather than one individual."

I don't care what loads of people consider them to be. And I don't care that they are on the list (Alot of those lists are really f'ed up).

Well why not go one better and try taking my advice by doing some research? Remember, Wikipedia is only the start, not the finish, if you want a slightly more accurate source try encyclopedia metallum, for all your heavy metal needs.


"You said that in this post, not before--I said it before and you acted like you disagreed. Get your facts straight, and your timeline too!"

Well I could've sworn I said it at some point. I'm tired, and my eyes are bloodshot, and it was the same then, what do you expect from me? A warm hug and a game of sports?

"Okay, I know I said I was done here, but you're calling my entire subculture fake, and I'm not going to take that."

"Your" Subculture? What the hell? The fact is most of the kinds of people you know think they're Goths, so yes they are fakes, and they are confused, this says nothing about the "Goths" that fit the profile you give but know the history.

"Inconsistancy alert! Below you finally admit that new gothic rock bands that sound like the older ones are now called Darkwave. While I agree that it seems as though modern Gothic Rock has nothing to do with older Gothic Rock, it is still what has adopted the title. Some modern Darkwave can still be called Gothic Rock, but sounds nothing like it. I'll admit I was wrong in my assumption that modern Gothic Rock a la MM and Evanescence came from old Gothic Rock, but that genre is still not just Industrial or Metal--it's very different in tone, instrumental choices, vocal styles, and subject matter. I realize that it's also very different from old Gothic Rock, but there is no other title for this somewhat-new genre. I say somewhat new because it's still a lot older than Emo...which reminds me. What this basically sounds like is that people are confusing old goth and new goth, and the new goths just stole the label, and the emos kind of did the same thing except they gave themselves a new name. I'd be pissed if emos called themselves goths, so I can understand where you're coming from."

I never said that Darkwave sounds nothing like Gothic Rock, as long as we're talking about the same thing, I had already heard that Gothic Rock is going more Electronic, what you said about Darkwave fit with what I already knew.

No it hasn't adopted the title at all, alot of people call Marilyn Manson Industrial Rock, hell I saw a prep calling his music that on a Goth Forum and she was new! Then she went on to make a fool of herself by not knowing it is a band *and* a person.

"Oh, you admitted this before? I was under the impression you denied the similarities between old gothic rock and darkwave:"

That just says that it's a useless term, not that Darkwave and Gothic Rock have no connection.


"See what I mean? Thanks for finally admitting it, but don't say you did before before when this is the first time."

I was under the impretion that you were saying that "old" Gothic Rock had evolved into bands like M M, which is so far from the truth it made me spew.

"So EVERYBODY that follows the newer gothic style is "fake"? While I admit there's a lot of fake goths, there are fakes and posers in any given subculture.

See...here's the thing. You're thinking that these people are brainwashed by the media, and thus are ignorant fakes, but the thing is, when they become a majority subculture on their own, with its own evolutions and its own subcultures WITHIN the subculture (Victorian Goths, Industrial Goths, Vampire-wannabe Goths, etc.--though they're never mutually exclusive), then it's its own style. Just because it doesn't fit with the old idea of what was gothic doesn't mean it's fake. It's just a newer culture using an older name, fusing some of the sensibilities with newer stuff like decent sound quality in the music, influences from other genres, crappy poetry in blogs, Tim Burton movies (still don't know how you cannot consider them gothic), BDSM (eww), excessive conformity (I'll certainly admit that), obsession with pain, etc. There's "gothic" clothing these days, "gothic" movies (such as "Underworld"), "gothic" games ("Planescape: Torment," "BloodRayne," and "American McGee's Alice" come to mind), "gothic" books (Anne Rice's Vampire Chronicles, Dracula, Tithe: A Modern Fairy Tale), "gothic" art (Linda Bergkvist AKA Enayla is one of the better known "gothic" artists), etc....and they all feature similar patterns, themes, moods, and overall stylings. Now quite a bit of this is too anti-mainstream for the mainstream media to cover any of it at all, yet it still retains the label of "gothic." Basically what I'm saying is...this is what gothic is right now. It may not be anything like what gothic was, but that doesn't mean it's completely fake. Saying so is bigotted and disrespectful to all involved in this subculture--and that's a lot of people, and some of those are genuine. Maybe not traditional, but certainly genuine."

Well they're certainly not a part of the Goth Culture, just because you like a bunch of Goth bands doesn't mean you participate in the Culture and are therefore a Goth, and seeing as how widespread the Goth Culture is it should be incredibly easy for them to do so.

Again you're getting your definitions mixed up, alot of that stuff can be said to be Gothic, but that doesn't mean any of it has any relation to Goth Culture, and since I can't possibly know if it has any relation I have to assume it isn't.

"Sorry, it sounded like you were saying I was calling new gothic the only gothic and that your gothic simply wasn't gothic, which isn't what I was saying at all. Still isn't.

By the way, I dunno about you, but my media doesn't report s**t about anything goth-related unless some supposedly gothic kids went on a shooting spree or something and they're trying to criticize the whole subculture because of a couple of dumbasses."

Ok.

Well I never hear anything in the news about Goth at all, it's just because people see the look and because it resembles what they see in someone they know already they link the two (Eg, they see Marilyn Manson on TV, and happens to resemble a Goth some person knows, and bam suddenly he's Goth, what's worse is when a Goth happens to like said band which only reinforces that idea, or when someone is new to Goth Culture and doesn't know the difference and isn't informed), all of the stuff I used in my example is common.

"First of all, I couldn't refer to the last paragraph then because you hadn't posted it. Second of all, if you want me to understand what you're saying, then articulate it better. Third of all, I'm sorry I misunderstood, but you've been making false asumptions about what I've been saying this whole time too--don't be such a hypocrite."

I meant the previous one. Articulate better? What kind of half arsed advice is that? You should know very well that Aspies can have trouble communicating. Since when?


"Actually, not a lot of people are gothic at my school, and for those that are I haven't had the oppertunity to talk to many of them. What moron would confuse My Chemical Romance, obviously an EMO band, with gothic? (I know it may sound like I'm doing the same thing, but remember, Emo's gave themselves a new name--new goths didn't.) Cradle of Filth is black metal, liked by many goths (at least ones with no exposure to less commertial black metal) but certainly not gothic. See? I'm not completely ignorant about this stuff--I just am part of a different subculture than you that happens to carry the same title.

By the way, here's one example of you making assumptions. I don't get my information about what's gothic from random people on the streets. As I said, I get it from people who consider themselves gothic, or "fake goths" as you arrogantly call them. This would be akin to a Hollocost survivor telling me the story, not a Nazi."

Well then there's part of your problem. People confuse them because they look sightly similar, just like Cradle of Filth would look slightly like the average Goth. And no they aren't liked by alot of Goths, maybe by alot of the people you know but not Goths, most Goths hate that band.

I realise they consider themselves Gothic and maybe they are but they aren't Goths, you're getting your infomation from the wrong source, and even if you could be sure they were Goths it would still be the wrong way to go about Researching something.

"You said all the bands I was talking about were either Industrial or Metal, not Gothic Rock, here: "

Yes and I consider them Metal, which is an oversimplification but it's true.

"Had you said "Except Evanescence," I might have been less confused. By the way, Wikipedia lists them as Pop/Alternative/Rock one one page, and Gothic Metal on another (see below). Personally, I don't understand how they can be considered either--they don't have 3-5 minute long guitar solos like a lot of Metal bands do (though "Weight of the World" from "The Open Door" does sound kinda metal-y), nor is their tone ANYTHING as light as pop/alternative."

A band doesn't have to fit every single requirement, anyway I consider them to have a big Nu Metal influence which isn't anything like Metal but there you go.

I've heard KDFDM and London After Midnight, they sound NOTHING like MM. The tone, mood, subject matter, and instrumental choices are completely different. He does look like the people from Deathstars, but I don't judge music by the way the band members look. He might have been influenced by a lot of different bands, but he definately put his own spin on it, and since when is blending together a lot of different elements to create something great all that bad of a thing? I mean, "The Matrix" completely ripped off Dark City, John Woo movies, etc. but it's still a great movie.

Well there you go, I think they do, but that isn't to say they influenced his music solely, alright? I aknowledge his music has alot of different influences.

What source is there beyond people? "Gothic" as an adjective isn't something you can put into a textbook. There are certain trends, but in the end, people are people. You can't call people confused or fake just because they don't fit into an outdated textbook definition of what a "Goth" is, but still claim to be because they have elements that they have associated with goths. Typos, however, can be entirely forgiven. ^_~

Books? You know written by people that are highly regarded in the particular field? Like the guy who I have mentioned already, Mick Mercer.
I can call someone confused if they think they are something they are not, and although both have a taste for the Gothic side of things one has a taste for Goth things and the other does not, you'd know what I was talking about if they were all brought to a Goth Convention.

"You misunderstood, but thanks for admitting that his movies ARE gothic. What I meant was, more goths (er...modern goths, or new goths, or fake goths, whatever you wanna call 'em) love that movie than any other gothic movie. It's got a ridiculously huge fanbase. Now, you can go ahead and not believe me, and I'd understand--again, this isn't something that can really be counted. But I haven't met a single goth that disliked "Nightmare Before Christmas" or didn't consider it gothic. His other movies, such as "Sleepy Hollow" and "Edward Scissorhands," also have intense goth-driven fanbases. So I wasn't calling his movies Goth, so much as calling them Goth ICONS:"

Well that's the problem, it can't really be verified, that's why, for the purpose of this thread I am considering his movies not Goth.

"When did I call his movies Goth? I called them Gothic. After misinterpreting my words and making assumptions about what I'm saying you flat out put words in my mouth. What a nice way to win a debate!"

And what the hell am I supposed to know what is meant by "Gothic Icons"?

"First sentence: look who's talking. After that: I know Nightwish is TECHNICALLY classified as "Symphonic Power Metal," but loads of people still consider it gothic. It certainly has a lot of gothic elements--excuse me, MODERN gothic elements. And you can actually look at your precious Wikipedia's list of Gothic Metal--Lacuna Coil is on it. (And no, I didn't edit it. I don't have a login there.) "Goth Metal" and "Gothic Metal" are both given the same page, as well. I used those two bands as examples because they're both widely known. I know other bands are better examples, but NW and LC are the better known ones, the ones I've heard most commonly regarded as Gothic Metal. And I'm inclined to listen to the many fans of those bands rather than one individual."

I don't care what loads of people consider them to be. And I don't care that they are on the list (Alot of those lists are really f'ed up).

Well why not go one better and try taking my advice by doing some research? Remember, Wikipedia is only the start, not the finish, if you want a slightly more accurate source try encyclopedia metallum, for all your heavy metal needs.


"You said that in this post, not before--I said it before and you acted like you disagreed. Get your facts straight, and your timeline too!"

"Okay, I know I said I was done here, but you're calling my entire subculture fake, and I'm not going to take that."

"Your" Subculture? What the hell? The fact is most of the kinds of people you know think they're Goths, so yes they are fakes, and they are confused, this says nothing about the "Goths" that fit the profile you give but know the history.

"Inconsistancy alert! Below you finally admit that new gothic rock bands that sound like the older ones are now called Darkwave. While I agree that it seems as though modern Gothic Rock has nothing to do with older Gothic Rock, it is still what has adopted the title. Some modern Darkwave can still be called Gothic Rock, but sounds nothing like it. I'll admit I was wrong in my assumption that modern Gothic Rock a la MM and Evanescence came from old Gothic Rock, but that genre is still not just Industrial or Metal--it's very different in tone, instrumental choices, vocal styles, and subject matter. I realize that it's also very different from old Gothic Rock, but there is no other title for this somewhat-new genre. I say somewhat new because it's still a lot older than Emo...which reminds me. What this basically sounds like is that people are confusing old goth and new goth, and the new goths just stole the label, and the emos kind of did the same thing except they gave themselves a new name. I'd be pissed if emos called themselves goths, so I can understand where you're coming from."

I never said that Darkwave sounds nothing like Gothic Rock, as long as we're talking about the same thing, I had already heard that Gothic Rock is going more Electronic, what you said about Darkwave fit with what I already knew.

No it hasn't adopted the title at all, alot of people call Marilyn Manson Industrial Rock, hell I saw a prep calling his music that on a Goth Forum and she was new! Then she went on to make a fool of herself by not knowing it is a band *and* a person.

"Oh, you admitted this before? I was under the impression you denied the similarities between old gothic rock and darkwave:"

That just says that it's a useless term, not that Darkwave and Gothic Rock have no connection.


"See what I mean? Thanks for finally admitting it, but don't say you did before before when this is the first time."

I was under the impretion that you were saying that "old" Gothic Rock had evolved into bands like M M, which is so far from the truth it made me spew.

"So EVERYBODY that follows the newer gothic style is "fake"? While I admit there's a lot of fake goths, there are fakes and posers in any given subculture.

See...here's the thing. You're thinking that these people are brainwashed by the media, and thus are ignorant fakes, but the thing is, when they become a majority subculture on their own, with its own evolutions and its own subcultures WITHIN the subculture (Victorian Goths, Industrial Goths, Vampire-wannabe Goths, etc.--though they're never mutually exclusive), then it's its own style. Just because it doesn't fit with the old idea of what was gothic doesn't mean it's fake. It's just a newer culture using an older name, fusing some of the sensibilities with newer stuff like decent sound quality in the music, influences from other genres, crappy poetry in blogs, Tim Burton movies (still don't know how you cannot consider them gothic), BDSM (eww), excessive conformity (I'll certainly admit that), obsession with pain, etc. There's "gothic" clothing these days, "gothic" movies (such as "Underworld"), "gothic" games ("Planescape: Torment," "BloodRayne," and "American McGee's Alice" come to mind), "gothic" books (Anne Rice's Vampire Chronicles, Dracula, Tithe: A Modern Fairy Tale), "gothic" art (Linda Bergkvist AKA Enayla is one of the better known "gothic" artists), etc....and they all feature similar patterns, themes, moods, and overall stylings. Now quite a bit of this is too anti-mainstream for the mainstream media to cover any of it at all, yet it still retains the label of "gothic." Basically what I'm saying is...this is what gothic is right now. It may not be anything like what gothic was, but that doesn't mean it's completely fake. Saying so is bigotted and disrespectful to all involved in this subculture--and that's a lot of people, and some of those are genuine. Maybe not traditional, but certainly genuine."

Well they're certainly not a part of the Goth Culture, just because you like a bunch of Goth bands doesn't mean you participate in the Culture and are therefore a Goth, and seeing as how widespread the Goth Culture is it should be incredibly easy for them to do so.

Again you're getting your definitions mixed up, alot of that stuff can be said to be Gothic, but that doesn't mean any of it has any relation to Goth Culture, and since I can't possibly know if it has any relation I have to assume it isn't.

"Sorry, it sounded like you were saying I was calling new gothic the only gothic and that your gothic simply wasn't gothic, which isn't what I was saying at all. Still isn't.

By the way, I dunno about you, but my media doesn't report s**t about anything goth-related unless some supposedly gothic kids went on a shooting spree or something and they're trying to criticize the whole subculture because of a couple of dumbasses."

Ok.

Well I never hear anything in the news about Goth at all, it's just because people see the look and because it resembles what they see in someone they know already they link the two (Eg, they see Marilyn Manson on TV, and happens to resemble a Goth some person knows, and bam suddenly he's Goth, what's worse is when a Goth happens to like said band which only reinforces that idea, or when someone is new to Goth Culture and doesn't know the difference and isn't informed), all of the stuff I used in my example is common.

"First of all, I couldn't refer to the last paragraph then because you hadn't posted it. Second of all, if you want me to understand what you're saying, then articulate it better. Third of all, I'm sorry I misunderstood, but you've been making false asumptions about what I've been saying this whole time too--don't be such a hypocrite."

I meant the previous one. Articulate better? What kind of half arsed advice is that? You should know very well that Aspies can have trouble communicating. Since when?


"Actually, not a lot of people are gothic at my school, and for those that are I haven't had the oppertunity to talk to many of them. What moron would confuse My Chemical Romance, obviously an EMO band, with gothic? (I know it may sound like I'm doing the same thing, but remember, Emo's gave themselves a new name--new goths didn't.) Cradle of Filth is black metal, liked by many goths (at least ones with no exposure to less commertial black metal) but certainly not gothic. See? I'm not completely ignorant about this stuff--I just am part of a different subculture than you that happens to carry the same title.

By the way, here's one example of you making assumptions. I don't get my information about what's gothic from random people on the streets. As I said, I get it from people who consider themselves gothic, or "fake goths" as you arrogantly call them. This would be akin to a Hollocost survivor telling me the story, not a Nazi."

Well then there's part of your problem. People confuse them because they look sightly similar, just like Cradle of Filth would look slightly like the average Goth. And no they aren't liked by alot of Goths, maybe by alot of the people you know but not Goths, most Goths hate that band.

I realise they consider themselves Gothic and maybe they are but they aren't Goths, you're getting your infomation from the wrong source, and even if you could be sure they were Goths it would still be the wrong way to go about Researching something.

"You said all the bands I was talking about were either Industrial or Metal, not Gothic Rock, here: "

Yes and I consider them Metal, which is an oversimplification but it's true.

"Had you said "Except Evanescence," I might have been less confused. By the way, Wikipedia lists them as Pop/Alternative/Rock one one page, and Gothic Metal on another (see below). Personally, I don't understand how they can be considered either--they don't have 3-5 minute long guitar solos like a lot of Metal bands do (though "Weight of the World" from "The Open Door" does sound kinda metal-y), nor is their tone ANYTHING as light as pop/alternative."

A band doesn't have to fit every single requirement, anyway I consider them to have a big Nu Metal influence which isn't anything like Metal but there you go.

I've heard KDFDM and London After Midnight, they sound NOTHING like MM. The tone, mood, subject matter, and instrumental choices are completely different. He does look like the people from Deathstars, but I don't judge music by the way the band members look. He might have been influenced by a lot of different bands, but he definately put his own spin on it, and since when is blending together a lot of different elements to create something great all that bad of a thing? I mean, "The Matrix" completely ripped off Dark City, John Woo movies, etc. but it's still a great movie.

Well there you go, I think they do, but that isn't to say they influenced his music solely, alright? I aknowledge his music has alot of different influences.

What source is there beyond people? "Gothic" as an adjective isn't something you can put into a textbook. There are certain trends, but in the end, people are people. You can't call people confused or fake just because they don't fit into an outdated textbook definition of what a "Goth" is, but still claim to be because they have elements that they have associated with goths. Typos, however, can be entirely forgiven. ^_~

Books? You know written by people that are highly regarded in the particular field? Like the guy who I have mentioned already, Mick Mercer.
I can call someone confused if they think they are something they are not, and although both have a taste for the Gothic side of things one has a taste for Goth things and the other does not, you'd know what I was talking about if they were all brought to a Goth Convention.

"You misunderstood, but thanks for admitting that his movies ARE gothic. What I meant was, more goths (er...modern goths, or new goths, or fake goths, whatever you wanna call 'em) love that movie than any other gothic movie. It's got a ridiculously huge fanbase. Now, you can go ahead and not believe me, and I'd understand--again, this isn't something that can really be counted. But I haven't met a single goth that disliked "Nightmare Before Christmas" or didn't consider it gothic. His other movies, such as "Sleepy Hollow" and "Edward Scissorhands," also have intense goth-driven fanbases. So I wasn't calling his movies Goth, so much as calling them Goth ICONS:"

Well that's the problem, it can't really be verified, that's why, for the purpose of this thread I am considering his movies not Goth.

"When did I call his movies Goth? I called them Gothic. After misinterpreting my words and making assumptions about what I'm saying you flat out put words in my mouth. What a nice way to win a debate!"

And what the hell am I supposed to know what is meant by "Gothic Icons"?

"First sentence: look who's talking. After that: I know Nightwish is TECHNICALLY classified as "Symphonic Power Metal," but loads of people still consider it gothic. It certainly has a lot of gothic elements--excuse me, MODERN gothic elements. And you can actually look at your precious Wikipedia's list of Gothic Metal--Lacuna Coil is on it. (And no, I didn't edit it. I don't have a login there.) "Goth Metal" and "Gothic Metal" are both given the same page, as well. I used those two bands as examples because they're both widely known. I know other bands are better examples, but NW and LC are the better known ones, the ones I've heard most commonly regarded as Gothic Metal. And I'm inclined to listen to the many fans of those bands rather than one individual."

I don't care what loads of people consider them to be. And I don't care that they are on the list (Alot of those lists are really f'ed up).

Well why not go one better and try taking my advice by doing some research? Remember, Wikipedia is only the start, not the finish, if you want a slightly more accurate source try encyclopedia metallum, for all your heavy metal needs.


"You said that in this post, not before--I said it before and you acted like you disagreed. Get your facts straight, and your timeline too!"
"Okay, I know I said I was done here, but you're calling my entire subculture fake, and I'm not going to take that."

"Your" Subculture? What the hell? The fact is most of the kinds of people you know think they're Goths, so yes they are fakes, and they are confused, this says nothing about the "Goths" that fit the profile you give but know the history.

"Inconsistancy alert! Below you finally admit that new gothic rock bands that sound like the older ones are now called Darkwave. While I agree that it seems as though modern Gothic Rock has nothing to do with older Gothic Rock, it is still what has adopted the title. Some modern Darkwave can still be called Gothic Rock, but sounds nothing like it. I'll admit I was wrong in my assumption that modern Gothic Rock a la MM and Evanescence came from old Gothic Rock, but that genre is still not just Industrial or Metal--it's very different in tone, instrumental choices, vocal styles, and subject matter. I realize that it's also very different from old Gothic Rock, but there is no other title for this somewhat-new genre. I say somewhat new because it's still a lot older than Emo...which reminds me. What this basically sounds like is that people are confusing old goth and new goth, and the new goths just stole the label, and the emos kind of did the same thing except they gave themselves a new name. I'd be pissed if emos called themselves goths, so I can understand where you're coming from."

I never said that Darkwave sounds nothing like Gothic Rock, as long as we're talking about the same thing, I had already heard that Gothic Rock is going more Electronic, what you said about Darkwave fit with what I already knew.

No it hasn't adopted the title at all, alot of people call Marilyn Manson Industrial Rock, hell I saw a prep calling his music that on a Goth Forum and she was new! Then she went on to make a fool of herself by not knowing it is a band *and* a person.

"Oh, you admitted this before? I was under the impression you denied the similarities between old gothic rock and darkwave:"

That just says that it's a useless term, not that Darkwave and Gothic Rock have no connection.


"See what I mean? Thanks for finally admitting it, but don't say you did before before when this is the first time."

I was under the impretion that you were saying that "old" Gothic Rock had evolved into bands like M M, which is so far from the truth it made me spew.

"So EVERYBODY that follows the newer gothic style is "fake"? While I admit there's a lot of fake goths, there are fakes and posers in any given subculture.

See...here's the thing. You're thinking that these people are brainwashed by the media, and thus are ignorant fakes, but the thing is, when they become a majority subculture on their own, with its own evolutions and its own subcultures WITHIN the subculture (Victorian Goths, Industrial Goths, Vampire-wannabe Goths, etc.--though they're never mutually exclusive), then it's its own style. Just because it doesn't fit with the old idea of what was gothic doesn't mean it's fake. It's just a newer culture using an older name, fusing some of the sensibilities with newer stuff like decent sound quality in the music, influences from other genres, crappy poetry in blogs, Tim Burton movies (still don't know how you cannot consider them gothic), BDSM (eww), excessive conformity (I'll certainly admit that), obsession with pain, etc. There's "gothic" clothing these days, "gothic" movies (such as "Underworld"), "gothic" games ("Planescape: Torment," "BloodRayne," and "American McGee's Alice" come to mind), "gothic" books (Anne Rice's Vampire Chronicles, Dracula, Tithe: A Modern Fairy Tale), "gothic" art (Linda Bergkvist AKA Enayla is one of the better known "gothic" artists), etc....and they all feature similar patterns, themes, moods, and overall stylings. Now quite a bit of this is too anti-mainstream for the mainstream media to cover any of it at all, yet it still retains the label of "gothic." Basically what I'm saying is...this is what gothic is right now. It may not be anything like what gothic was, but that doesn't mean it's completely fake. Saying so is bigotted and disrespectful to all involved in this subculture--and that's a lot of people, and some of those are genuine. Maybe not traditional, but certainly genuine."

Well they're certainly not a part of the Goth Culture, just because you like a bunch of Goth bands doesn't mean you participate in the Culture and are therefore a Goth, and seeing as how widespread the Goth Culture is it should be incredibly easy for them to do so.

Again you're getting your definitions mixed up, alot of that stuff can be said to be Gothic, but that doesn't mean any of it has any relation to Goth Culture, and since I can't possibly know if it has any relation I have to assume it isn't.

"Sorry, it sounded like you were saying I was calling new gothic the only gothic and that your gothic simply wasn't gothic, which isn't what I was saying at all. Still isn't.

By the way, I dunno about you, but my media doesn't report s**t about anything goth-related unless some supposedly gothic kids went on a shooting spree or something and they're trying to criticize the whole subculture because of a couple of dumbasses."

Ok.

Well I never hear anything in the news about Goth at all, it's just because people see the look and because it resembles what they see in someone they know already they link the two (Eg, they see Marilyn Manson on TV, and happens to resemble a Goth some person knows, and bam suddenly he's Goth, what's worse is when a Goth happens to like said band which only reinforces that idea, or when someone is new to Goth Culture and doesn't know the difference and isn't informed), all of the stuff I used in my example is common.

"First of all, I couldn't refer to the last paragraph then because you hadn't posted it. Second of all, if you want me to understand what you're saying, then articulate it better. Third of all, I'm sorry I misunderstood, but you've been making false asumptions about what I've been saying this whole time too--don't be such a hypocrite."

I meant the previous one. Articulate better? What kind of half arsed advice is that? You should know very well that Aspies can have trouble communicating. Since when?


"Actually, not a lot of people are gothic at my school, and for those that are I haven't had the oppertunity to talk to many of them. What moron would confuse My Chemical Romance, obviously an EMO band, with gothic? (I know it may sound like I'm doing the same thing, but remember, Emo's gave themselves a new name--new goths didn't.) Cradle of Filth is black metal, liked by many goths (at least ones with no exposure to less commertial black metal) but certainly not gothic. See? I'm not completely ignorant about this stuff--I just am part of a different subculture than you that happens to carry the same title.

By the way, here's one example of you making assumptions. I don't get my information about what's gothic from random people on the streets. As I said, I get it from people who consider themselves gothic, or "fake goths" as you arrogantly call them. This would be akin to a Hollocost survivor telling me the story, not a Nazi."

Well then there's part of your problem. People confuse them because they look sightly similar, just like Cradle of Filth would look slightly like the average Goth. And no they aren't liked by alot of Goths, maybe by alot of the people you know but not Goths, most Goths hate that band.

I realise they consider themselves Gothic and maybe they are but they aren't Goths, you're getting your infomation from the wrong source, and even if you could be sure they were Goths it would still be the wrong way to go about Researching something.

"You said all the bands I was talking about were either Industrial or Metal, not Gothic Rock, here: "

Yes and I consider them Metal, which is an oversimplification but it's true.

"Had you said "Except Evanescence," I might have been less confused. By the way, Wikipedia lists them as Pop/Alternative/Rock one one page, and Gothic Metal on another (see below). Personally, I don't understand how they can be considered either--they don't have 3-5 minute long guitar solos like a lot of Metal bands do (though "Weight of the World" from "The Open Door" does sound kinda metal-y), nor is their tone ANYTHING as light as pop/alternative."

A band doesn't have to fit every single requirement, anyway I consider them to have a big Nu Metal influence which isn't anything like Metal but there you go.

I've heard KDFDM and London After Midnight, they sound NOTHING like MM. The tone, mood, subject matter, and instrumental choices are completely different. He does look like the people from Deathstars, but I don't judge music by the way the band members look. He might have been influenced by a lot of different bands, but he definately put his own spin on it, and since when is blending together a lot of different elements to create something great all that bad of a thing? I mean, "The Matrix" completely ripped off Dark City, John Woo movies, etc. but it's still a great movie.

Well there you go, I think they do, but that isn't to say they influenced his music solely, alright? I aknowledge his music has alot of different influences.

What source is there beyond people? "Gothic" as an adjective isn't something you can put into a textbook. There are certain trends, but in the end, people are people. You can't call people confused or fake just because they don't fit into an outdated textbook definition of what a "Goth" is, but still claim to be because they have elements that they have associated with goths. Typos, however, can be entirely forgiven. ^_~

Books? You know written by people that are highly regarded in the particular field? Like the guy who I have mentioned already, Mick Mercer.
I can call someone confused if they think they are something they are not, and although both have a taste for the Gothic side of things one has a taste for Goth things and the other does not, you'd know what I was talking about if they were all brought to a Goth Convention.

"You misunderstood, but thanks for admitting that his movies ARE gothic. What I meant was, more goths (er...modern goths, or new goths, or fake goths, whatever you wanna call 'em) love that movie than any other gothic movie. It's got a ridiculously huge fanbase. Now, you can go ahead and not believe me, and I'd understand--again, this isn't something that can really be counted. But I haven't met a single goth that disliked "Nightmare Before Christmas" or didn't consider it gothic. His other movies, such as "Sleepy Hollow" and "Edward Scissorhands," also have intense goth-driven fanbases. So I wasn't calling his movies Goth, so much as calling them Goth ICONS:"

Well that's the problem, it can't really be verified, that's why, for the purpose of this thread I am considering his movies not Goth.

"When did I call his movies Goth? I called them Gothic. After misinterpreting my words and making assumptions about what I'm saying you flat out put words in my mouth. What a nice way to win a debate!"

And what the hell am I supposed to know what is meant by "Gothic Icons"?

"First sentence: look who's talking. After that: I know Nightwish is TECHNICALLY classified as "Symphonic Power Metal," but loads of people still consider it gothic. It certainly has a lot of gothic elements--excuse me, MODERN gothic elements. And you can actually look at your precious Wikipedia's list of Gothic Metal--Lacuna Coil is on it. (And no, I didn't edit it. I don't have a login there.) "Goth Metal" and "Gothic Metal" are both given the same page, as well. I used those two bands as examples because they're both widely known. I know other bands are better examples, but NW and LC are the better known ones, the ones I've heard most commonly regarded as Gothic Metal. And I'm inclined to listen to the many fans of those bands rather than one individual."

I don't care what loads of people consider them to be. And I don't care that they are on the list (Alot of those lists are really f'ed up).

Well why not go one better and try taking my advice by doing some research? Remember, Wikipedia is only the start, not the finish, if you want a slightly more accurate source try encyclopedia metallum, for all your heavy metal needs.


"You said that in this post, not before--I said it before and you acted like you disagreed. Get your facts straight, and your timeline too!"

Well I could've sworn I said it at some point. I'm tired, and my eyes are bloodshot, it was the same that night, what do you expect from me, a warm hug and a bit of sports?

I already told you, I accept the history, I accept that goths ain't what they used to be. Doesn't make them fakes. And yes, MY subculture. The subculture I belong to. You're insulting the living s**t out of it without reason. I'm critical of goth culture, definately. I think some of it's repulsive; I dislike the drugs, the promiscuous sex, the raves, the S&M. But it's still a subculture that I am a part of. It is a style that I adore, in terms of clothing, and music, and artwork, and film--and you're calling all of that 100% fake, fed by the media. And that is disrespectful.



Dude, read your previous posts in this thread, particularly the part that I quoted. You never admitted to a connection between the two until now. You just acted shocked at the notion and seemed to deny it, so I figured, "Okay, maybe I'm wrong" and dropped it, for as I have admitted I have not listened to either old gothic rock or Darkwave very much--it was just my first impression. Regardless of how you felt about this, you didn't communicate it worth s**t.

Oh, and thanks for admitting Gothic Rock is going more electronic--this fits right in with what I've said before about your old Gothic music sounding more like Industrial, and what I consider "modern" Gothic Rock to be sounds less like it.



First you say we shouldn't listen to non-goths about what's gothic, now you're listening to a PREP about MM? Especially one that goes on to prove herself so ignorant about the subject? You certainly give me a strong example to follow!

By the way, I don't see why I should take your opinion on what Manson is. Not only have you expressed your hatred for him, but have you also called him "pop." Manson's mainstream, and he takes some pop sensibilities into his music, but he is NOT pop--that's like calling Nine Inch Nails pop because it has pop sensibilities and mainstream success as well, when NIN is obviously Industrial. (Trent Reznor was, after all, MM's mentor and friend, which explains the association between MM and Industrial even though it's a gross oversimplification.) Compare the tones of NIN and MM. While both have similar elements and occasionally similar subject matter (drugs, anti-Christian themes), they sound nothing alike. Sure, there are some tonal similarities between The Downward Spiral and Antichrist Superstar, but I'm talking about the majority of MM's career (Mechanical Animals, HolyWood, and The Golden Age of Grotesque).

Furthermore, certainly, Manson has ELEMENTS of Industrial Rock, but the overall style is very gothic. (Again, not old gothic, new gothic.) And I dunno how you can call him Industrial Rock when old Gothic Rock is, again, way more Industrial than Manson. Manson has too many elements that AREN'T Industrial. Listen to "HolyWood" or "The Golden Age of Grotesque"--those sure as hell aren't simply Industrial Rock. They're Gothic Rock with Industrial Elements, certainly, but that's not the same thing. Industrial has a HEAVY emphesis on dark electronic elements. In MM, the electronic, synthetic, Industrial elements are subtle, minor, not the mainstage. It follows the STRUCTURE of rock, as well, wheres Industrial groups typically forgo the structure in favor of having 2-5 minute sessions of pulsing techno beats for the audience to dance to. (Even NIN does this a little bit.) This structure is part those "pop sensibilities," but POP has a HAPPY tone, a LIGHT tone. It's not dark or morbid or creepy--that's against everything that pop is about. Calling MM pop is ridiculous. I HATE pop music, but I love MM music. Says something, don't it?

Ok, here I'll ask you...what do YOU think makes something gothic? I think it's the mood, the style, the way the sounds all come together. Goth is about celebrating what is dark and what society normally spits upon, and being unified under an umbrella of shadow. The conformity, while disguisting, is necessary because it's the only way to feel like you're a part of something despite being different from that mainstream world you hate so much, that mainstream...that POP world that has caused you so much pain and frustration. Even at its most mainstream (again, MM and Evanescence), the music I consider Gothic Rock "gets" this in both lyrics and in tone...combining moods of dark, morbid sadness with rebellious anger at symbols such as the government or religion, or gleeful joy about ignoring those things that such symbols say are "evil" because they're different. And again, this is about TONE, this is about MOOD. This is about how the instruments come together to form a cohesive sound that isn't quite like any of the other genres--not electronic enough to be Industrial, and not accoustic enough to be Rock, not QUITE hard enough to be Metal (and too structured--most metal has a very chaotic, rambling structure), but combining it all together in a way that is derivative but still unique.



Still, you never admitted it until the post I was replying to, so I had no idea that you felt the connection as well.



Well, I was saying that initially, but you set me straight on that so I stopped:



I'm very sorry, that was unclear. I thought I'd clearly admitted that there was no evolution in my last post, but obviously I'm mistaken--please forgive me. You definately convinced me that modern gothic rock has nothing to do with old gothic rock. I still think that new gothic rock is still gothic rock, though, just not the same thing.



So, basically, because you don't KNOW about something you assume that it has nothing to do with a culture you're not even a part of? Again, I was talking about MODERN Gothic Culture, not YOUR Gothic Culture, not traditional Gothic Culture. I don't know much about that one because I'm not a part of it, so I wouldn't dare make any judgements about it or what relation anything has to it. Please show me and my "fake" goth culture the same respect.

And certainly liking gothic bands doesn't necessarily make you gothic. But what if you love gothic bands, gothic movies, gothic games, gothic art, gothic clothing, the gothic attitude(s), the gothic perspective(s), the gothic lingo--does this not mean that you adore gothic culture? I was under the impression that huge parts of culture were art, language, values, attitudes, clothing, entertainment, etc. but if I'm wrong about this then please, indulge me.



I know exactly what you mean. But there are gonna be mistakes of that sort anywhere, in any subculture or minority--it's called prejudice. Of course it's common! Doesn't mean that the goths themselves are fake. Maybe they're following a stereotype, but if you combine all of those people (and that's a LOT of people) all going into one stereotype and all following the same "fake" subculture, then BAM, it might as well be a new subculture. It's just how it happens. People stereotype themselves to stand out from the OTHER stereotypes, but in the end if there's a shedload of people doing it, it might as well be the case because it's become the majority! I know that you want everything to fit into history and all that, but...things change. So...maybe, in a way, new gothic culture DID evolve from old gothic culture, because of a confused media and stereotypes. But that doesn't mean that all modern goths are fake. They're just following the examples of other goths--not from the media, but from their kin. In the end, people are people, and they'll admire different things, and maybe old gothic stylings aren't what new goths admire...which is why I think I've been separating the two. (Of course, this is just a theory to accomodate both of our views and observations.)

I think this happens in a lot of subcultures--it's how they change, even if one isn't as influenced by its previous "form" as you might think. (By form, I mean the previous style to adopt the name.) Old-style gangsters could have a thing to say about new-style gangsters, for example, but that doesn't make new-style gangsters not gangsters.

Hey, by the way:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goths says:

"The Goths were an East Germanic tribe who according to their own traditions left Scandinavia, settled close to the Vistula mouth (in present day Poland), and from the 2nd century settled Scythia, Dacia and Pannonia. In the 3rd and 4th centuries, they harried the Byzantine Empire and later adopted Arianism. In the 5th and 6th centuries, dividing into the Visigoths and the Ostrogoths, they established powerful follower-states of the Roman Empire in Iberia and Italy."

I'm sure you know about these guys. But what if one of them came up to you and said you were a fake goth and that your gothic rock music wasn't anything like the music they played back in his day and therefore you're a total fake media whore that was using a label wrongly?

"Arrrgh, these books are spreading LIES about what gothic is and what goths are!" (This is what he'd say before he saw what I said was gothic and probably decapitate me for it, since it's even MORE detached from the TRADITIONAL traditional goths. Heh.) Just an analogy to put it into perspective.




If I communicate something badly and somebody misunderstands, I appologize. I've done that already in this thread. Yes, we aspies have trouble communicating, but that doesn't excuse it--it means we should work harder to understand one another. I didn't understand you. Hence, rephrase that in a way that I understand. Say what you thought but didn't actually say because you thought it was obvious. That's all "articulating better" is. There's no shame in it, just as long as we continue to make sure the other party understands (with appologies, if necessary--such as in an arguement like this one, where understanding the other side is EVERYTHING), and as long as we don't act like hypocrites about it.



Most OLD goths or most MODERN goths? I hate CoF (except the song "Nymphetamine" because I like Liv Kristine and the contrasting tones), but plenty of self-proclaimed Goths like 'em. Not saying all of 'em do, because not all of 'em like sh***y commercialized black metal (hahah), but much of CoF's rather large fanbase is comprised of modern goths and half-goths. (Yes, half-goths. There are people who aren't really gothic but have some elements of gothic, but also lack a lot of the key elements as well..again, these are modern goths I'm talking about.)

And you again assume I have ONE source, rather than too many to count! You keep acting like Gothic is something that can be put into a textbook, but it's not like that. People are people. Some have MOST of the modern gothic elements or stylings, even if they're not the stereotype...does that mean they're not gothic? I don't do drugs or BDSM. Does that mean I'm not gothic because it's typical for modern goths to be into that?

Plus, you're again simplifying things, and forgetting that there are TWO cultures we're talking about here, both of which call themself the same name. You can try to call the OTHER goth culture "fake" and "ignorant" all you want, but it's still its own culture, and it still calls itself gothic. And you know what? We use terms like "gothic" to make it easier to communicate what kind of people we are, what kind of things we like, what kind of styles we adopt. That's the WHOLE POINT OF THE ADJECTIVE! Gothic used to be one thing; now it's something else. Stop clinging to the historical definition because you'll only confuse the ignorant rest of the world when the whole point of the adjective is to make the rest of the world understand what you mean! I'm not saying to stop calling yourself a gothic music lover, just be accurate about it. "A lover of Traditional gothic music." There, that's a great way to describe it, and it cuts out all the confusion. Regardless of how fake you consider New Goths to be, the world at large will still remain ignorant of what traditional gothic music is, and when you say you like gothic music, you want people to understand without having to explain all this, don't you? Then you could avoid having debates like this!

Or, you can think of it like this. I'll bring up NIN again. A lot of fans hated NIN's latest album, "With Teeth," and now say that they like "Old NIN," or the way NIN used to be. It's different in the latest album...it's not what it used to be. But it's still calling itself NIN, and saying it's not NIN will just confuse people even though it betrays its origins. It'd just be denial. Same here--it's still gothic, it's just completely different, and saying it's not gothic just confuses people.




If it's an oversimplification, it's not true. Just that simple. Most Metal lacks structure; it's way more chaotic, with 2-5 minute long guitar solos. Most metal also has a certain, rather cheesy and over the top guitar style. These bands lack that. I have nothing against Metal, I listen to a lot of it, but anyone who calls these bands Metal is frankly ignorant. They have ELEMENTS of it, certainly, but that's not the same thing. Plus...didn't you just say, above, that MM was Industrial Rock? Well, then, what is it? Is he Industrial Rock, or Metal?



Putting things into perspective again: for me, comparing Evanescence to Nu Metal is like comparing MM to Bauhaus or Darkwave. These are major differences. It's not a matter of "not every single requirement," it's a matter of the two sounding nothing alike.

You're still trying to act like modern Gothic isn't a genre on its own. Sure, it's a hodgepodge of a lot of different influences but it's still its own thing...you can't group it into just ONE of those influences.



I could call YOU confused for thinking you're a goth because a BOOK told you you are, rather than other PEOPLE, when the whole point of the label is so other people will understand what kind of person you are! I could call YOU confused for basing your hateful opinion on new gothic by your love of old gothic!



So, you don't consider his overall visual style to be gothic? The costumes? The creatures? The sets? Burton was one of the defining people of the new gothic style--the only verification I need is in seeing his influence everywhere in new gothic culture.

And for the purposes of this thread, why not just accept some of what I'm saying so you can get this thread back on track and about old gothic rock and Darkwave instead of having it be just one big long arguement? I already told you that I accept that old goth and new goth are different, and that new goth has very little to do with old goth.



By Gothic Icons, I mean the classic characters and themes that pilferate every bit of the subculture. The Crow is another one. An Ankh is an overused one. I'm talking symbols, influences, heroes! Trent Reznor, though not really someone I'd consider gothic (not that I'd have a huge arguement about it), is idolized by many modern gothic sorts, so he KIND of fits as one. I'm talking the people and symbols and what not that practically every goth knows about, or perhaps admires. Tim Burton's a big one. Neil Gaiman isn't quite as big (not enough people read) but he's still up there. So's Johnny the Homocidal Maniac by Jhonen Vasquez...which interestingly enough is pretty critical of modern gothic culture. (Though, it bashes goth culture where goth culture deserves to be bashed!)



If you don't care what loads of people think, why should I care what you think? I use gothic as an adjective for one thing, you use it for another. Why should I have to adapt to an outdated usage of the word, when the whole point is to help people understand what the music sounds like?

When I hear gothic metal, the bands I think of are NW and LC and (earlier) Theatre of Tragedy, and this is how it is for many. Regardless of how much this flies in the face of a textbook's traditional meaning for the word, it's the modern connotation. I'm not going to fight the tide. I like how this new gothic is, it's defined much of my personality, and I don't see the point in calling it all fake just because it's different, or because it might have originated from confusion and stereotyping. But...obviously I'm biased. I'm sorry.

But I'm not going to stop calling all this stuff gothic--not just the music, everything. What name would I give it? Would I make something up? For the stuff with fantasy gothic themes, I could not call it Industrial--for example, nobody could call Enayla's artwork Industrial, but it's easy to describe it as Gothic. Even Enayla herself admits to this, admits to being a goth. Regardless of how goth used to be...you can't just tell everyone who is ignorant about this history to stop calling themselves goths. They won't. It's fighting the tide, man.

Call yourself a traditional goth, or an old school goth, or just accept that the word goth has a broader meaning now, with its own set of subcultures--some new, some old, some fantasy-oriented, some sci fi-oriented, some punk-oriented, etc. I can understand your position, really--you feel that old gothic is the "right" goth, the "true" goth, what goth ACTUALLY is, rather than just what people THINK it is. And telling people about gothic history and how it used to be can help clear myths about it. But you're not going to win any modern goths over by calling them a bunch of ignorant fake f***s. It'll just piss 'em off and they'll want to disregard anything you say.



Hey, it's all good. Like I said, we all do it. ^_^

You know, I really don't want to keep arguing like this...it's sucking away too much of my time. So, if after reading this you still think I'm full of s**t and all modern goths are fake, well...you wanna just agree to disagree and be done with it? You created this thread to talk about traditional gothic music, right? I have no business here.

"I already told you, I accept the history, I accept that goths ain't what they used to be. Doesn't make them fakes. And yes, MY subculture. The subculture I belong to. You're insulting the living s**t out of it without reason. I'm critical of goth culture, definately. I think some of it's repulsive; I dislike the drugs, the promiscuous sex, the raves, the S&M. But it's still a subculture that I am a part of. It is a style that I adore, in terms of clothing, and music, and artwork, and film--and you're calling all of that 100% fake, fed by the media. And that is disrespectful."

Goth Culture is the same as it used to be, so I don't know what you're talking about, the old Goths didn't go anywhere. You don't belong to one, maybe you fit the profile of what you know as Goth but that isn't part of a Subculture, look up the definition.
What drugs, promiscuous sex, raves and S&M? YOU'RE insulting the living s**t out of MY Suculture by assuming you know anything about it, then going on to act as if it's full of drug addicts, sex addicts, and crap knows what else, so try researching it because from what I know most Goths do none of the things you mention. Again you are not part of a Subculture, not any that I recognise, and if you do you might as well start recognising Nu Metal fans as part of a Subculture, but here's some facts for you, a Subculture is meant to be SEPERATE from the mainstream, what you're talking about is completely different from the kind of Goth I am talking about, yours is rag tag, all over the place, with no definition of itself, and surprise surpise, dependant on the Culture it sprang from.

"Dude, read your previous posts in this thread, particularly the part that I quoted. You never admitted to a connection between the two until now. You just acted shocked at the notion and seemed to deny it, so I figured, "Okay, maybe I'm wrong" and dropped it, for as I have admitted I have not listened to either old gothic rock or Darkwave very much--it was just my first impression. Regardless of how you felt about this, you didn't communicate it worth s**t.

Oh, and thanks for admitting Gothic Rock is going more electronic--this fits right in with what I've said before about your old Gothic music sounding more like Industrial, and what I consider "modern" Gothic Rock to be sounds less like it."

There you go again, sounding more Industrial? I never said that at all, I said that it is going more Electronic, not Industrial, get your facts straight.

"First you say we shouldn't listen to non-goths about what's gothic, now you're listening to a PREP about MM? Especially one that goes on to prove herself so ignorant about the subject? You certainly give me a strong example to follow!

By the way, I don't see why I should take your opinion on what Manson is. Not only have you expressed your hatred for him, but have you also called him "pop." Manson's mainstream, and he takes some pop sensibilities into his music, but he is NOT pop--that's like calling Nine Inch Nails pop because it has pop sensibilities and mainstream success as well, when NIN is obviously Industrial. (Trent Reznor was, after all, MM's mentor and friend, which explains the association between MM and Industrial even though it's a gross oversimplification.) Compare the tones of NIN and MM. While both have similar elements and occasionally similar subject matter (drugs, anti-Christian themes), they sound nothing alike. Sure, there are some tonal similarities between The Downward Spiral and Antichrist Superstar, but I'm talking about the majority of MM's career (Mechanical Animals, HolyWood, and The Golden Age of Grotesque).

Furthermore, certainly, Manson has ELEMENTS of Industrial Rock, but the overall style is very gothic. (Again, not old gothic, new gothic.) And I dunno how you can call him Industrial Rock when old Gothic Rock is, again, way more Industrial than Manson. Manson has too many elements that AREN'T Industrial. Listen to "HolyWood" or "The Golden Age of Grotesque"--those sure as hell aren't simply Industrial Rock. They're Gothic Rock with Industrial Elements, certainly, but that's not the same thing. Industrial has a HEAVY emphesis on dark electronic elements. In MM, the electronic, synthetic, Industrial elements are subtle, minor, not the mainstage. It follows the STRUCTURE of rock, as well, wheres Industrial groups typically forgo the structure in favor of having 2-5 minute sessions of pulsing techno beats for the audience to dance to. (Even NIN does this a little bit.) This structure is part those "pop sensibilities," but POP has a HAPPY tone, a LIGHT tone. It's not dark or morbid or creepy--that's against everything that pop is about. Calling MM pop is ridiculous. I HATE pop music, but I love MM music. Says something, don't it?

Ok, here I'll ask you...what do YOU think makes something gothic? I think it's the mood, the style, the way the sounds all come together. Goth is about celebrating what is dark and what society normally spits upon, and being unified under an umbrella of shadow. The conformity, while disguisting, is necessary because it's the only way to feel like you're a part of something despite being different from that mainstream world you hate so much, that mainstream...that POP world that has caused you so much pain and frustration. Even at its most mainstream (again, MM and Evanescence), the music I consider Gothic Rock "gets" this in both lyrics and in tone...combining moods of dark, morbid sadness with rebellious anger at symbols such as the government or religion, or gleeful joy about ignoring those things that such symbols say are "evil" because they're different. And again, this is about TONE, this is about MOOD. This is about how the instruments come together to form a cohesive sound that isn't quite like any of the other genres--not electronic enough to be Industrial, and not accoustic enough to be Rock, not QUITE hard enough to be Metal (and too structured--most metal has a very chaotic, rambling structure), but combining it all together in a way that is derivative but still unique."

Try re-reading what you write, I never said that I listened to her, I'm saying she seems to know more about it than you do. Yeah and you're certainly giving me a reason to respect and believe every word you say.

You don't have to, you can take the facts if you want, though facts don't seem to be in you vocabulary, instead of checking the facts you go to Wikipedia, read it selectivley, then come back and twist my words around and insult me, then you have the nerve to act as if you've researched anything when I have clearly stated reading Wikipedia does not constitue research.
Yes he is Pop, I put them in that catagory because they are not a part of the Underground, hence they are popular, get it?
Well since you've admited that "new gothic" has no relation to Gothic Rock I can't understand why you'd still be using the term, you've virtually admited that neo goths have no relation to Goth Culture, hence they aren't Goths. Old Gothic Rock has no Industrial elements, it has Electronic elements, which are extremely different to Industrial. So again you go back to calling him Gothic Rock? Yeah it says that you haven't taken the time to read my posts, you just get angry and post without having a clear head to think about what you're saying.
I don't care what makes something Gothic because again this isn't what this is about, this is about Goth Culture, and while M M maybe Gothic, it is not Goth in anyway, Goth music has no Industrial part to it, just Electronic, which was there from the start anyway, M M cannot be Gothic Rock.

"Still, you never admitted it until the post I was replying to, so I had no idea that you felt the connection as well."

I was tired, I have already said that I was tired, should I mention that I have a poor memory too? What more do you want from me?

"Well, I was saying that initially, but you set me straight on that so I stopped:"

And yet you've gone back to that by stating that old Gothic Rock has elements of Industrial and that M M does too.

"I'm very sorry, that was unclear. I thought I'd clearly admitted that there was no evolution in my last post, but obviously I'm mistaken--please forgive me. You definately convinced me that modern gothic rock has nothing to do with old gothic rock. I still think that new gothic rock is still gothic rock, though, just not the same thing."

That doesn't make any sense at all, how can you use the same term for something that you admit is completely different?


"So, basically, because you don't KNOW about something you assume that it has nothing to do with a culture you're not even a part of? Again, I was talking about MODERN Gothic Culture, not YOUR Gothic Culture, not traditional Gothic Culture. I don't know much about that one because I'm not a part of it, so I wouldn't dare make any judgements about it or what relation anything has to it. Please show me and my "fake" goth culture the same respect.

And certainly liking gothic bands doesn't necessarily make you gothic. But what if you love gothic bands, gothic movies, gothic games, gothic art, gothic clothing, the gothic attitude(s), the gothic perspective(s), the gothic lingo--does this not mean that you adore gothic culture? I was under the impression that huge parts of culture were art, language, values, attitudes, clothing, entertainment, etc. but if I'm wrong about this then please, indulge me."

Again you're going by the assumption that I am ignorant in this area, I am not, I've known alot of people that were into the same thing you call Gothic Rock, and I happen to have been into it at one point myself.


Not when you like something that doesn't have anything to do with Goth Culture, and so far you haven't mentioned one thing that is a part of the Goth Culture, yet I can name a list of things longer than this post will end up being, since you haven't named any I can only assume your Culture has no relation to mine, and the fact that yours is not distict from mainstream culture is important (Yes Hop Topic is a shop for Preps, not Goths), I have yet to meet many Neo Goths (Modern "Goths") that likes Linda's Art by the way, or have even heard of her, infact most I know of only liked M M and other such bands and go to Hot Topic, do you see a pattern forming?

'I know exactly what you mean. But there are gonna be mistakes of that sort anywhere, in any subculture or minority--it's called prejudice. Of course it's common! Doesn't mean that the goths themselves are fake. Maybe they're following a stereotype, but if you combine all of those people (and that's a LOT of people) all going into one stereotype and all following the same "fake" subculture, then BAM, it might as well be a new subculture. It's just how it happens. People stereotype themselves to stand out from the OTHER stereotypes, but in the end if there's a shedload of people doing it, it might as well be the case because it's become the majority! I know that you want everything to fit into history and all that, but...things change. So...maybe, in a way, new gothic culture DID evolve from old gothic culture, because of a confused media and stereotypes. But that doesn't mean that all modern goths are fake. They're just following the examples of other goths--not from the media, but from their kin. In the end, people are people, and they'll admire different things, and maybe old gothic stylings aren't what new goths admire...which is why I think I've been separating the two. (Of course, this is just a theory to accomodate both of our views and observations.)

I think this happens in a lot of subcultures--it's how they change, even if one isn't as influenced by its previous "form" as you might think. (By form, I mean the previous style to adopt the name.) Old-style gangsters could have a thing to say about new-style gangsters, for example, but that doesn't make new-style gangsters not gangsters.

Hey, by the way:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goths says:

"The Goths were an East Germanic tribe who according to their own traditions left Scandinavia, settled close to the Vistula mouth (in present day Poland), and from the 2nd century settled Scythia, Dacia and Pannonia. In the 3rd and 4th centuries, they harried the Byzantine Empire and later adopted Arianism. In the 5th and 6th centuries, dividing into the Visigoths and the Ostrogoths, they established powerful follower-states of the Roman Empire in Iberia and Italy."

I'm sure you know about these guys. But what if one of them came up to you and said you were a fake goth and that your gothic rock music wasn't anything like the music they played back in his day and therefore you're a total fake media whore that was using a label wrongly?

"Arrrgh, these books are spreading LIES about what gothic is and what goths are!" (This is what he'd say before he saw what I said was gothic and probably decapitate me for it, since it's even MORE detached from the TRADITIONAL traditional goths. Heh.) Just an analogy to put it into perspective.'

Once something is a part of the mainstream it cannot be considered a Subculture, the people you're describing are not a part of a Subculture, and the fact that they have the same interests is nothing to go on, otherwise you might as well call Jocks a Subculture. Stop trying to paint a picture where I'm unaware of how things currently go, I am quite aware, and am not deluding myself, you however seem to be either ingoring the facts or intentionaly staying away from them.

Don't think I'm not aware of the origin of the name, I know how it's evolved and changed through the centuries, your useage isn't commonly accepted however.

"If I communicate something badly and somebody misunderstands, I appologize. I've done that already in this thread. Yes, we aspies have trouble communicating, but that doesn't excuse it--it means we should work harder to understand one another. I didn't understand you. Hence, rephrase that in a way that I understand. Say what you thought but didn't actually say because you thought it was obvious. That's all "articulating better" is. There's no shame in it, just as long as we continue to make sure the other party understands (with appologies, if necessary--such as in an arguement like this one, where understanding the other side is EVERYTHING), and as long as we don't act like hypocrites about it."


I couldn't articulate it better, and anything I have said that has confused you can probably be brought down to, miscommunication, tiredness, ect.

Most OLD goths or most MODERN goths? I hate CoF (except the song "Nymphetamine" because I like Liv Kristine and the contrasting tones), but plenty of self-proclaimed Goths like 'em. Not saying all of 'em do, because not all of 'em like sh***y commercialized black metal (hahah), but much of CoF's rather large fanbase is comprised of modern goths and half-goths. (Yes, half-goths. There are people who aren't really gothic but have some elements of gothic, but also lack a lot of the key elements as well..again, these are modern goths I'm talking about.)

And you again assume I have ONE source, rather than too many to count! You keep acting like Gothic is something that can be put into a textbook, but it's not like that. People are people. Some have MOST of the modern gothic elements or stylings, even if they're not the stereotype...does that mean they're not gothic? I don't do drugs or BDSM. Does that mean I'm not gothic because it's typical for modern goths to be into that?

Plus, you're again simplifying things, and forgetting that there are TWO cultures we're talking about here, both of which call themself the same name. You can try to call the OTHER goth culture "fake" and "ignorant" all you want, but it's still its own culture, and it still calls itself gothic. And you know what? We use terms like "gothic" to make it easier to communicate what kind of people we are, what kind of things we like, what kind of styles we adopt. That's the WHOLE POINT OF THE ADJECTIVE! Gothic used to be one thing; now it's something else. Stop clinging to the historical definition because you'll only confuse the ignorant rest of the world when the whole point of the adjective is to make the rest of the world understand what you mean! I'm not saying to stop calling yourself a gothic music lover, just be accurate about it. "A lover of Traditional gothic music." There, that's a great way to describe it, and it cuts out all the confusion. Regardless of how fake you consider New Goths to be, the world at large will still remain ignorant of what traditional gothic music is, and when you say you like gothic music, you want people to understand without having to explain all this, don't you? Then you could avoid having debates like this!

Or, you can think of it like this. I'll bring up NIN again. A lot of fans hated NIN's latest album, "With Teeth," and now say that they like "Old NIN," or the way NIN used to be. It's different in the latest album...it's not what it used to be. But it's still calling itself NIN, and saying it's not NIN will just confuse people even though it betrays its origins. It'd just be denial. Same here--it's still gothic, it's just completely different, and saying it's not gothic just confuses people.

The only kind of Goth I know of.

Oh really? You to have too many to count eh? Do you have an objective source? Do you have a source that comprises the whole history of the subject? I do, I have several, just check out anyone of Mick Mercers books for example, or Scathe Demon.

I never admited that what you're talking about is a Subculture, seeing as how it isn't, as I've stated in previous paragraphs it would have to be distinct from the mainstream, as Frank Zappa said "The Underground doesn't come to you, you have to come to the Underground", paraphrased.

You make the assumption that Goth has somehow died off and/or changed, while it has changed somewhat I do not need to use the term you used, seeing as how I love lots of "Current" Goth music as well, the term "Traditional" is superfluous, and inaccurate.


"If it's an oversimplification, it's not true. Just that simple. Most Metal lacks structure; it's way more chaotic, with 2-5 minute long guitar solos. Most metal also has a certain, rather cheesy and over the top guitar style. These bands lack that. I have nothing against Metal, I listen to a lot of it, but anyone who calls these bands Metal is frankly ignorant. They have ELEMENTS of it, certainly, but that's not the same thing. Plus...didn't you just say, above, that MM was Industrial Rock? Well, then, what is it? Is he Industrial Rock, or Metal?"

Well I consider that an oversimplification, Nu Metal is very structured. Industrial Rock, how can you be confused about that at all? Industrial Rock is closely related to Industrial, it is a subgenre, so it is not wrong to call his music Industrial.

"Putting things into perspective again: for me, comparing Evanescence to Nu Metal is like comparing MM to Bauhaus or Darkwave. These are major differences. It's not a matter of "not every single requirement," it's a matter of the two sounding nothing alike.

You're still trying to act like modern Gothic isn't a genre on its own. Sure, it's a hodgepodge of a lot of different influences but it's still its own thing...you can't group it into just ONE of those influences."

Well I don't want to give them a genre like "Alternative Rock" that can usually mean anything, and it's usually what they're described as.

No I'm conforming to my belief that what you describe as "Gothic Rock" is on the whole just Industrial Rock.

"I could call YOU confused for thinking you're a goth because a BOOK told you you are, rather than other PEOPLE, when the whole point of the label is so other people will understand what kind of person you are! I could call YOU confused for basing your hateful opinion on new gothic by your love of old gothic!"

And I could call you confused for assuming that I use a book to decide whether or not I'm a Goth, then assuming that I hate them at all.

"So, you don't consider his overall visual style to be gothic? The costumes? The creatures? The sets? Burton was one of the defining people of the new gothic style--the only verification I need is in seeing his influence everywhere in new gothic culture.

And for the purposes of this thread, why not just accept some of what I'm saying so you can get this thread back on track and about old gothic rock and Darkwave instead of having it be just one big long arguement? I already told you that I accept that old goth and new goth are different, and that new goth has very little to do with old goth. "

Are you listening at all? This isn't about what is Gothic, this is about Goth, christ.


"By Gothic Icons, I mean the classic characters and themes that pilferate every bit of the subculture. The Crow is another one. An Ankh is an overused one. I'm talking symbols, influences, heroes! Trent Reznor, though not really someone I'd consider gothic (not that I'd have a huge arguement about it), is idolized by many modern gothic sorts, so he KIND of fits as one. I'm talking the people and symbols and what not that practically every goth knows about, or perhaps admires. Tim Burton's a big one. Neil Gaiman isn't quite as big (not enough people read) but he's still up there. So's Johnny the Homocidal Maniac by Jhonen Vasquez...which interestingly enough is pretty critical of modern gothic culture. (Though, it bashes goth culture where goth culture deserves to be bashed!)"

Well those aren't Neo Goth things, they're Icons of the Goth Culture, not what you've been talking about, except for Trent which I cannot really verifiy, just like Tim.

"If you don't care what loads of people think, why should I care what you think? I use gothic as an adjective for one thing, you use it for another. Why should I have to adapt to an outdated usage of the word, when the whole point is to help people understand what the music sounds like?

When I hear gothic metal, the bands I think of are NW and LC and (earlier) Theatre of Tragedy, and this is how it is for many. Regardless of how much this flies in the face of a textbook's traditional meaning for the word, it's the modern connotation. I'm not going to fight the tide. I like how this new gothic is, it's defined much of my personality, and I don't see the point in calling it all fake just because it's different, or because it might have originated from confusion and stereotyping. But...obviously I'm biased. I'm sorry.

But I'm not going to stop calling all this stuff gothic--not just the music, everything. What name would I give it? Would I make something up? For the stuff with fantasy gothic themes, I could not call it Industrial--for example, nobody could call Enayla's artwork Industrial, but it's easy to describe it as Gothic. Even Enayla herself admits to this, admits to being a goth. Regardless of how goth used to be...you can't just tell everyone who is ignorant about this history to stop calling themselves goths. They won't. It's fighting the tide, man.

Call yourself a traditional goth, or an old school goth, or just accept that the word goth has a broader meaning now, with its own set of subcultures--some new, some old, some fantasy-oriented, some sci fi-oriented, some punk-oriented, etc. I can understand your position, really--you feel that old gothic is the "right" goth, the "true" goth, what goth ACTUALLY is, rather than just what people THINK it is. And telling people about gothic history and how it used to be can help clear myths about it. But you're not going to win any modern goths over by calling them a bunch of ignorant fake f***s. It'll just piss 'em off and they'll want to disregard"

Because I've talked to alot more people about these things. Because if you use the same word for two different things you end up having to explain, anyway Goth and Gothic tends to mean the same thing from my experiences with the mainstream.

This isn't just Textbooks, this is the majority of Metalheads and alot of Goths, and these two Subcultures vastly outwiegh your mainstream phenomenom, especially since it's Gothic Metal. Also Encyclopedia Metallum is another Internet database, like Wikipedia, except it focuses on Heavy Metal, and is monitered by Metalheads, and fans of Metal. Anyway ToT is Gothic Metal, so I don't know why that was in here.

It might apear that way to you but to me it doesn't, especially since there are always ignorant people around, why go with what they say?

To understand my position you'd have to understand me, but unfortunetly you don't know me at all, I know about things like Vampire Goths better than you think I do, it's just that I make the distinction better, by the way I don't think that they aren't Goths. You give me way to little credit.

Well why don't you talk with a bunch of Goths? there is a Goth Group on MySpace "Goth", it should have the image "Gothic Inside", there are a few people there you can talk to, it's really popular though so you'll get alot of wackos, a better group would be way smaller, and whatever you do, do NOT post a Topic saying "What is Goth?" or ask any questions like that, because they get those Topics just about every week, and every single time almost every single Goth gives an idea of what they think is Goth, usually some sappy crap like "Everybody has a different definition", people throw insults at each other, ect, just be subtle, and don't make any sudden moves, ALRIGHT?! Seriously don't ask stupid questions like "Is Marilyn Manson a Goth?", or even better just look for a Topic, there might be one about it already.

And no I don't think I can get back to the original point, have you seen anyone post in here for the last few days? No, I think it's just you and me, nobody else is interested.

I don't know about anyone else, but i didn't post as i don't want someone jumping down my throat calling me a liar and an idiot, and getting involved in a massive sociological debate about what makes up a subculture, and what makes a particular subculture and all the various sub-subcultures.

It's good that you feel so passionately about a subject that you have gone to great lengths studying it's history and all it's different variations, but calling someone a fake just because their idea of a rather (to most people) vague and complex subculture is frankly unacceptable.

Persecuting someone because their definiton of the term "Goth", when you titled the post with that word, you didn't specify a type of "Goth" and you didn't define this type, is arrogant and unjust.

Who says that your defdiniton of "Goth" is accurate and applicable to all "Goths"?

For the record, i am not a "Goth"; i listen to some "Gothic Music", read some "Gothic Literature", admire some "Gothic Art" and appreciate some "Gothic Styles and Clothing."

I'm sorry if i am being rather harsh but it is this type of social elitism that i find extremely disturbing, not only are people being abused because they are different, they are being abused because they are a different type of different to you.

Can't you just appreciate that everyone sees the world differently to you, and that everyone has different perceptions and opinions about, what is essentially a word.

You know, I spent a couple hours writing this huge post in response to everything you said, but...in the end, what does it matter? Music is music. If ya like it, great. If not, oh well. I'll post the main points here, though.

I wasn't talking about your goth culture--you repeatedly thought I was, such as when you thought I was insulting it at the beginning. I was talking about the way most of the goths I've known, and the goths I have met, and the goths I have seen the profiles and what not of. Most of them have been into S&M, raves, drugs, and promiscuous sex. Sorry, but that's just the way it is. I'm sure that old goth culture isn't like that, but it's how it is for a lot of modern, self-proclaimed goths these days--at least in the US. Certainly not all of them are like that--I'm an example--but quite a few are. Don't think I'm saying bad things about your culture when there are two different cultures here.

There's simply no way you can tell me what I think as gothic is not gothic, and there's no way I'm going to be able to convince you it is. Try to understand--you're my first exposure into the world of traditional goth culture, man. The stuff I've been talking about is all stuff that has been associated with goths in everything I've read--plenty of web sites (for example Sims 2 clothing that is described as "goth," "fetish," "vampire," etc.--it all has a similar pattern) to message boards (I've heard "Underworld" be described as "one of the best goth movies" by many people) to loads of art sites and models (such as Elva, a goth/fetish model who runs an S&M club in Sweeden), and of course PEOPLE who are all into this stuff and have called themselves gothic. I'm sorry, but this is what I view as gothic. You can tell me it's wrong all you want, but it just sounds like you're basing this opinion off of an outdated book rather than seeing the rest of the world's point of view. Again, I'm not in Australia, I dunno how different it is there, but here everything that's considered gothic by pretty much everyone is, well, what I've been describing this whole time.

About subcultures...In America, every culture is a subculture because there's no singular mainstream culture. There's a lot of them...and Gothic isn't really one of them. There are a shedload of different cultures and they all have clashing social values and ettiquettes and expected attitudes and what not. So I call them all subcultures, because none of them are 100% mainstream--there's just too many of them for everybody to fit into it. Now, Neo Goth is more mainstream, certainly, but it still calls itself Gothic and there's nothing either of us can do to change that, so the best we can do is accomodate, forgo the historical definition and adapt to it all.

I don't think that traditional is superfluous, because there's still that other neo-gothic culture, the culture I've been describing. Since you wouldn't want to be falsely associated with that, adding the term "traditional" helps lessen the confusion of it all. But if you want to be stubborn, be my guest. Maybe my usage of the word "gothic" is not commonly accepted by traditional goths, but again, my whole outlook on what goth is has been shaped by too many sources to count, none of which have been or been by traditional goths and all of which have been or been by modern goths. Maybe loads of traditional goths are still in existance, but I haven't heard of any until now.

Rest assured, I've read your posts. Multiple times in some cases to fully wrap my head around them, since it's all such a major clash with everything else I've read. I just disagree because I have a different view on gothic than you do. I base my analysis on gothic culture by what I see and hear and experience, not by what I read in some old book. I base my opinions of genres by what I hear bands being labeled and how I compare that to other bands with those labels. And if that makes me a media whore, so be it--it's the style I love, and yes, it IS a style on its own. I can hear the differences in the music, and I can see the differences in the visual stylings, and no book or website can argue with what I hear with my own ears and see with my own eyes.