How broad is your definition of art?

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so. the defining feature of food is edibility. a shoe is inedible? there's a video on youtube: werner herzog eats his shoe. also: leather is actually nutritious and is being eaten in times of famine(cook it first).
so you don't like the food, and the restaurant probably won't survive. I'm not sure what your argument here is.

the nose in the museum is good art- so is a measure of quality, whether it took time and effort to make?so, if my 4 year old nephew who has little skill or training happens to draw an impressive drawing of... something- but it only took him half an hour- does that mean, it's bad art- it didn't take him long, and he hasn't spent years in training, so it was effortless.

so the rock in the hole is not art, because you could do it yourself without training. so - art needs to be something you can't do without training?

You wouldn't be upset at all that you didn't get whatever it was you ordered, and instead received a shoe?

Even if you're training yourself, your best art should never be something that anybody off the street can perfectly replicate. If it was, what's the point of coming to a museum if I could do literally everything I saw all by myself?

so you want artists to serve you art that you like? wow dude.

you can choose not to eat the shoe. you don't have to pay for the shoe.

So, if you went to a restaurant, any restaurant at all, and they insisted that you eat a shoe, you would do it just because, in some very rare, extreme circumstances, people CAN eat shoes? You wouldn't be upset at all that you didn't get whatever it was you ordered, and instead received a shoe? And were then required to PAY for said shoe? What you're doing right now is taking something that is clearly wrong (and don't pretend like you don't think it is, you know it's wrong) and making excuses for it. Same with the "art" you're talking about. I think that, deep down, you know what you're arguing for is utter nonsense, but you won't admit it and so you keep making more and more excuses. Sure, it's perfectly reasonable for a chef to tell you to eat a shoe because [insert bullcrap excuses here].

pffh. no. I would have read about the experience of eating a shoe, and decided whether I would want to make that experience. - more often than not, stuff sounds too boring too go see.
but frankly- I'm giving you the license to leave the restaurant, and I give myself the same license. You're argumet is that while I give you the license to leave, I do not grant it to myself.
and for a reason I don't understand, you are upset about that.



The nose in the museum is good because you look at it, and it looks like a freaking nose. Obviously, time and effort went into making it. And unless your head is even further up your own artistic butthole than I thought, you're not going to take your 4 year old nephew's drawing and say it belongs in a museum, no matter how long it took him to draw it. The issue isn't how long it took them, necessarily, it's how much effort obviously did or did not go into making it. And more often than not, effort takes time. If your best "art" can be created in a half hour, maybe you should take a step back and look at it with a critical eye, rather than immediately pat yourself on the back and say "Imma gud artist."


Yeah, pretty much. Even if you're training yourself, your best art should never be something that anybody off the street can perfectly replicate. If it was, what's the point of coming to a museum if I could do literally everything I saw all by myself? I'd save gas and money. My writing is self-taught, but it took me years until it got to the point where it was of good enough quality to show to other people. These "artists" you're talking about have no artistic skill, they just create nonsense and then shame anyone who doesn't agree with them.

I'll tell you why modern art is so popular: because as long as you set your own standards, you can safely ignore and and all criticism you receive. What could possibly be more attractive to all the egotistical, easily offended snowflakes in the world? You make, you congratulate yourself, and you close yourself off from any input that would actually help you create something worthwhile.

The fact that you're still pretending that it's okay for a restaurant to serve shoes is the perfect example of what's wrong with your entire mindset.

Look at it this way: I can tell good art from bad just like I can tell good food from bad. If I go to some foreign restaurant, there's not a guarantee that I'll like what they give me. That doesn't mean it's bad food, it just means that it was too spicy, or too salty, or had ingredients in it that I don't like. I pay for the meal and leave. Same with art. Just because I don't necessarily like it doesn't mean it's bad art.

But if a restaurant gave me a shoe, that's just wrong. There is no defense for this, it's disgusting, unsanitary, and the chef should be fired and never given work in a restaurant again. A shoe isn't bad food, it isn't food at all. Screw what the chef wants his customers to think, it would be unacceptable for a restaurant to serve their patrons shoes. Refusing to eat the shoe doesn't mean that you aren't open minded or whatever, it just means you have the common sense not to eat a freaking show. Same with art. There's good art, bad art, and then things that just art at all. Today's "modern art" is not art, it's trash.

so, art=effort?

I don't get your problem. Don't go to a museum if it angers you that the artwork is measured to a standard you don't accept.

The fact that you're still pretending that it's okay for a restaurant to serve shoes is the perfect example of what's wrong with your entire mindset.

Effort + Actual skill (not "personal meaning") = Art. Look at the crap in museums that they're calling art, and tell me that any effort was put into it. Any at all. Like I said, I'm not an artist, and I could make the stuff they're displaying in there in half an hour, at most. That's not art.

well, for the last century and a half, the effort went into the intellectual part. into the thinking, coming up with it, developin
g a personal meaning to put into.


It's the fact that people's standards are so low these days that bugs me. The fact that Twilight, 50 Shades, and the like are all so freaking popular bugs me too. People will swallow whatever the "artist" tells them to because of a mixture of having nothing better, and because they're afraid of hurting the "artist's" feelings. And in the meantime, actual artists aren't getting the respect and recognition they deserve because museums are being filled with bowling balls in bird cages and kleenex that have been piled up in an "artistic" way.

I'm here, being called idiotic because of the art I like, and worse being told that I only like it because someone told me I should like it.

I'm not an artist. I'm an author. The only person my rant above applies to is you, and any other idiots who think the crap you've been talking about can actually be called art.

Do you people not hear yourselves? You literally just said that trash can be art if someone tells you it's art. That is complete and total bull crap. Some guy in the 70s told you that everyone's an artist, so of course it must be true, or else all these pretentious little hipsters will get their feelings hurt when they crap on a canvas and someone with more than two brain cells tells them to put it in the trash where it belongs. Just because someone "makes" it doesn't mean it's art, and you know, I think the fact that people are actually making excuses for these pathetic brainless morons is a great example of the degradation of modern society. Crap like Fifty Shades of Gray makes people millionaires, and worthless trash like what you people have been presenting to me actually gets passed off as art. Why? Because people will get their feelings hurt if they're (truthfully) told that they have no talent. Effort and education have been thrown out the window because they're just too darn hard. It's so much easier to just throw something together with no thought put into it and get lauded as some amazingly creative genius. It also comes with the benefit of pretentiously ignoring the opinions of intelligent people because "they just don't get me."

Seriously, people. You make me ashamed to be part of the human race.

Also, the direction of this thread lies outside your sphere of control. You want to imply that I asked for it?