Autistic savant type characters - what do you guys think?

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Jojopa
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21 Dec 2015, 6:33 pm

Curious to get some fellow aspergers/autistic opinions on an issue that has been giving me thought over the past few days.

For context, I'm writing an science-fiction adventure story for pre-adolescent children. Being autistic, I feel strongly about getting us more representation in fiction and so I've settled on making the eight year old brother of the protagonist somewhere on the autistic spectrum. I've done a bit of research online about writing autistic characters and found quite a lot of people complaining about savant type characters, that they aren't great because they imply we must have super useful abilities to compensate for our autistic difficulties rather than just being regular people.

While I see where this line of argument is coming from, I don't feel it's works for a genre like children's adventure. Kids don't want to read about a boring average person, they want to read about exceptional people who do exceptional things! I'm very conscious too that as the youngest character in my main trio and the motivation for the eleven year old protagonist to do what she does, there's a real risk of the brother coming across as "the load" or even "the scrappy" if he's perceived as being useless. I'm therefore leaning towards having him have a computer implanted in his brain, which combined with his natural intelligence allows him to useful to other characters at various points in the plot.

What do you guys think? Is giving an autistic character exceptional mental abilities via cybernetics empowering, or is it propagating an unhelpful stereotype?



TheAP
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22 Dec 2015, 1:59 pm

I think in an adventure story, there's a need for all the characters to be useful to the "quest". So I think it's a good idea to give him some special talents. You should be fine as long as you make him non-stereotypical in other ways. Good luck!



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22 Dec 2015, 7:07 pm

TheAP wrote:
I think in an adventure story, there's a need for all the characters to be useful to the "quest". So I think it's a good idea to give him some special talents. You should be fine as long as you make him non-stereotypical in other ways. Good luck!


Thanks! Yes, it probably would be a good idea for me to give him at-least one trait that isn't typically associated with autism...



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27 Dec 2015, 6:05 pm

Personally, I think its an assumption that kids wouldn't want to read about relatively ordinary problems, albeit with a twist, on adventures.

Think of the famous five - kids loved those adventures, but no-one was superpowered. Or Harry Potter where the characters are magical, but they also make very normal mistakes - they get their homework in late, struggle in class abs get into trouble for losing their temper.

There is something very powerful about having a character every bit as 'ordinary' as the readers doing something exciting. I'd say a lot of books these days take the track.

It's a cheap shot to make your characters extra special to complete a plot point imo. Much better to work with people whose choices and emotions affect how they behave. Unless very well handled, extra X characters very easily become a magic solution.

You could easily subtly entwine autistic traits into a character without the computer chip marlarky. If you really want one, go ahead but I wouldn't pretend it's a representation of autism.

I think a very important thing when writing for kids, is not to presume that kids are idiots or 'can't handke' much at all.

I'd also watch out for the 'but I gave them 1/2 not-X conditions trait' or, say, 'I made them overconfident/super-shy/etc to balance their super intelligence'. Don't create a character barring a couple of stereotypical traits. Create a varied person. I've seen this happen a lot in writing at it always jars and is easily seen through.

If you're not going to present the difficulties of autism, it's probably best to slide in a few (or several) traits to an otherwise rounded character. Otherwise you end up with the 'stereotypical' comments. People see straight through that sort of thing (as you've read).

There might be the odd exeception to the rule, but unless you're already very successful as a writer (know all the rules, and be able to use them well, before you break them) chances are that when you think it's good for your story... Well, the authors that are complained about probably thought just the same.


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Last edited by ConceptuallyCurious on 27 Dec 2015, 6:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

cberg
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27 Dec 2015, 6:12 pm

Cybernetics will take a lot of digging to write on convincingly, take it from someone planning upgrades. That said I also believe it's a topic people should have the resources to explore.


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Jojopa
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28 Dec 2015, 5:18 am

ConceptuallyCurious wrote:
Personally, I think its an assumption that kids wouldn't want to read about relatively ordinary problems, albeit with a twist, on adventures.

Think of the famous five - kids loved those adventures, but no-one was superpowered. Or Harry Potter where the characters are magical, but they also make very normal mistakes - they get their homework in late, struggle in class abs get into trouble for losing their temper.

There is something very powerful about having a character every bit as 'ordinary' as the readers doing something exciting. I'd say a lot of books these days take the track.

It's a cheap shot to make your characters extra special to complete a plot point imo. Much better to work with people whose choices and emotions affect how they behave. Unless very well handled, extra X characters very easily become a magic solution.

You could easily subtly entwine autistic traits into a character without the computer chip marlarky. If you really want one, go ahead but I wouldn't pretend it's a representation of autism.

I think a very important thing when writing for kids, is not to presume that kids are idiots or 'can't handke' much at all.

I'd also watch out for the 'but I gave them 1/2 not-X conditions trait' or, say, 'I made them overconfident/super-shy/etc to balance their super intelligence'. Don't create a character barring a couple of stereotypical traits. Create a varied person. I've seen this happen a lot in writing at it always jars and is easily seen through.

If you're not going to present the difficulties of autism, it's probably best to slide in a few (or several) traits to an otherwise rounded character. Otherwise you end up with the 'stereotypical' comments. People see straight through that sort of thing (as you've read).

There might be the odd exeception to the rule, but unless you're already very successful as a writer (know all the rules, and be able to use them well, before you break them) chances are that when you think it's good for your story... Well, the authors that are complained about probably thought just the same.


Some fair points, I'll keep that in mind. For clarity though, I would say while the book is about cybernetically modified children, they aren't anywhere near super-powered. Think a chip implanted in the hand to allow a direct connection to a computer type modification at most. There's very good reasons both plotwise and thematically that the younger brother of the protagonist needs to be more modified than the rest, but I suppose it doesn't have to be the brain, nor affect his mental acuity. Maybe the heart would do.



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28 Dec 2015, 5:20 am

cberg wrote:
Cybernetics will take a lot of digging to write on convincingly, take it from someone planning upgrades. That said I also believe it's a topic people should have the resources to explore.


The story is going to be set five hundred years in the future, so I wouldn't take it as an accurate guide of today's capabilities ;-)



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28 Dec 2015, 5:32 am

I'd go with the spine or *gulp* the pineal gland; many regions of the brain are sensitive to light though not all of those express liquid-crystaline properties like those of my laptop's screen. Since I know you're probably dubious about my claims regarding my own cybernetics aspirations, I know I should mention I'm a programmer & my professional work began in bio-medical technology. Like anyone I started small, working to write a controller for EKG/PulseOx sensors although that's also the manner in which I plan to begin my self-augmentation. I'm interested in the ability to somatically relate to technology; I think your decision to bind neural interfaces to one or both hands is probably good foresight, though the heart I firmly believe should be left to flesh & blood, however reinforced it may soon become. While I'd otherwise favor the augmentation of the spinal column, that of course is rather invasive by most people's standards, maybe you could select a vertebra that intrigues you, or perhaps a construct that follows a set of nerves.


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Jojopa
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28 Dec 2015, 7:20 am

cberg wrote:
I'd go with the spine or *gulp* the pineal gland; many regions of the brain are sensitive to light though not all of those express liquid-crystaline properties like those of my laptop's screen. Since I know you're probably dubious about my claims regarding my own cybernetics aspirations, I know I should mention I'm a programmer & my professional work began in bio-medical technology. Like anyone I started small, working to write a controller for EKG/PulseOx sensors although that's also the manner in which I plan to begin my self-augmentation. I'm interested in the ability to somatically relate to technology; I think your decision to bind neural interfaces to one or both hands is probably good foresight, though the heart I firmly believe should be left to flesh & blood, however reinforced it may soon become. While I'd otherwise favor the augmentation of the spinal column, that of course is rather invasive by most people's standards, maybe you could select a vertebra that intrigues you, or perhaps a construct that follows a set of nerves.


Yeah, funny that you should mention the spine, I very nearly put that in my second to last post. At-least in the terms of this story, invasive is actually a good thing. A major driving point of the tale will be that the technology is still experimental, and in the case of the protagonist, most of her cybernetics had to be removed a couple of years prior to the plot starting due to her body rejecting the implants. In her case that was possible since they weren't in a vital location, when her younger brother starts to experience the same problems however, surgical removal is impossible due to the implants location in his brain/heart/spine and thus the driving force of the plot begins.



naturalplastic
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28 Dec 2015, 8:02 am

Autism is so abstract a concept that few grown ups can grasp it.

And you're trying to write a futuristic sci fi fantasy for children with a character that is "slightly autistic".

I dont see how that could work at all narratively no matter what you do.

But okay-let's go with this idea.

First things first: are the characters themselves kids? Is this like Harry Potter, or Frozen? Or is this a group of comic book superheroes who are grown ups (Hulk, and Thor, and the girl played by Scarlett Johanson), or this like Star Trek/Star Wars (ordinary grown up people with out super powers thrown into an extrordinary adventure- and futuristic technology with 'super powers' figures in the story) or what?



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28 Dec 2015, 8:39 am

naturalplastic wrote:
Autism is so abstract a concept that few grown ups can grasp it.

And you're trying to write a futuristic sci fi fantasy for children with a character that is "slightly autistic".

I dont see how that could work at all narratively no matter what you do.

But okay-let's go with this idea.

First things first: are the characters themselves kids? Is this like Harry Potter, or Frozen? Or is this a group of comic book superheroes who are grown ups (Hulk, and Thor, and the girl played by Scarlett Johanson), or this like Star Trek/Star Wars (ordinary grown up people with out super powers thrown into an extrordinary adventure- and futuristic technology with 'super powers' figures in the story) or what?


Hey, I'm on phone but I'll try to explain as best I can without going into paragraphs of detail. :lol:

The main characters are an eleven year old protagonist, her eight year old brother and an eleven year boy they meet along the way who leads a group of younger kids. I work with children this age, including autistic kids, as part of my day job so I feel comfortable writing this age group. The easy option might be writing PG-rated teenagers, but that's not what I want to write. The siblings have been raised in a facility in which they have been experimented on and received light augmentation. We aren't talking much here, the focus is on extending and enhancing life in ordinary people rather than creating superheroes.

I can't see any inherent reason why an autistic character couldn't work in this setting. At the end of day, autism is essentially a set of character traits that make it a struggle for us to live in this society. It's perfectly plausible that an eight year old boy in the future would exhibit traits we would describe in this age as autistic.



naturalplastic
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28 Dec 2015, 9:05 am

Jojopa wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
Autism is so abstract a concept that few grown ups can grasp it.

And you're trying to write a futuristic sci fi fantasy for children with a character that is "slightly autistic".

I dont see how that could work at all narratively no matter what you do.

But okay-let's go with this idea.

First things first: are the characters themselves kids? Is this like Harry Potter, or Frozen? Or is this a group of comic book superheroes who are grown ups (Hulk, and Thor, and the girl played by Scarlett Johanson), or this like Star Trek/Star Wars (ordinary grown up people with out super powers thrown into an extrordinary adventure- and futuristic technology with 'super powers' figures in the story) or what?


Hey, I'm on phone but I'll try to explain as best I can without going into paragraphs of detail. :lol:

The main characters are an eleven year old protagonist, her eight year old brother and an eleven year boy they meet along the way who leads a group of younger kids. I work with children this age, including autistic kids, as part of my day job so I feel comfortable writing this age group. The easy option might be writing PG-rated teenagers, but that's not what I want to write. The siblings have been raised in a facility in which they have been experimented on and received light augmentation. We aren't talking much here, the focus is on extending and enhancing life in ordinary people rather than creating superheroes.

I can't see any inherent reason why an autistic character couldn't work in this setting. At the end of day, autism is essentially a set of character traits that make it a struggle for us to live in this society. It's perfectly plausible that an eight year old boy in the future would exhibit traits we would describe in this age as autistic.


I didnt say it wasnt plausible that autistics would exist in the future. I was saying that creating an autistic character in fantasy setting, and having that person recognizable as such would be hard to write. But apparently you're NOT doing a comic book type story. So it might be workable.

Yes-you might be the person to do this since you work with children. You know both children of various types, and child care institutions. Might be kinda of interesting to imagine a sinister dystopian version of the child care institution you work for- in which the state experiments on the kids! :D



Jojopa
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28 Dec 2015, 11:46 am

naturalplastic wrote:
Jojopa wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
Autism is so abstract a concept that few grown ups can grasp it.

And you're trying to write a futuristic sci fi fantasy for children with a character that is "slightly autistic".

I dont see how that could work at all narratively no matter what you do.

But okay-let's go with this idea.

First things first: are the characters themselves kids? Is this like Harry Potter, or Frozen? Or is this a group of comic book superheroes who are grown ups (Hulk, and Thor, and the girl played by Scarlett Johanson), or this like Star Trek/Star Wars (ordinary grown up people with out super powers thrown into an extrordinary adventure- and futuristic technology with 'super powers' figures in the story) or what?


Hey, I'm on phone but I'll try to explain as best I can without going into paragraphs of detail. :lol:

The main characters are an eleven year old protagonist, her eight year old brother and an eleven year boy they meet along the way who leads a group of younger kids. I work with children this age, including autistic kids, as part of my day job so I feel comfortable writing this age group. The easy option might be writing PG-rated teenagers, but that's not what I want to write. The siblings have been raised in a facility in which they have been experimented on and received light augmentation. We aren't talking much here, the focus is on extending and enhancing life in ordinary people rather than creating superheroes.

I can't see any inherent reason why an autistic character couldn't work in this setting. At the end of day, autism is essentially a set of character traits that make it a struggle for us to live in this society. It's perfectly plausible that an eight year old boy in the future would exhibit traits we would describe in this age as autistic.


I didnt say it wasnt plausible that autistics would exist in the future. I was saying that creating an autistic character in fantasy setting, and having that person recognizable as such would be hard to write. But apparently you're NOT doing a comic book type story. So it might be workable.

Yes-you might be the person to do this since you work with children. You know both children of various types, and child care institutions. Might be kinda of interesting to imagine a sinister dystopian version of the child care institution you work for- in which the state experiments on the kids! :D


Thanks, yeah I think JFK said it best, something along the lines of "We do these things, not because they are easy but because they are hard." I'm still undecided whether to drop a direct reference to autism in or not, the current draft leaves it unspecified but it could be mentioned offhand as part of his medical records during the diagnosis of his malfunctioning implants. I doubt it would mean much to most young readers, but those who are or have close friends or family on the spectrum would get it I hope :D



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31 Dec 2015, 6:12 pm

I think your plot will probably benefit from drawing on potential manufacturing methodologies for the hardware you're describing.


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Jojopa
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31 Dec 2015, 7:43 pm

cberg wrote:
I think your plot will probably benefit from drawing on potential manufacturing methodologies for the hardware you're describing.


It would probably be worth thinking about, I'm trying to keep everything in the realm of possible science, at-least as far as we can guess. No hyperdrives or laser swords in this story! I don't know if those explanations would make the actual final text though, depends if it could be referenced without slowing down the plot. Can't remember if I've mentioned it already, but the story takes place on a terraformed Mars and involves post-singularity super-intelligent AI which both need their own time to be explained. Got to strike the right balance so there's enough world-building without dumping a load of information on the reader.